9.0 General Discussion

[huth]

But where do we go beyond that when it comes to power levels. The Jailer is older than the Titan stuff around Azeroth. And then? Void Lords is the only thing above it. By making the Jailer such an ancient figure it's very hard to top that which is a major problem in generating new threats.

And you know what's even worse? Ion said Sylvanas is not (!) below the Jailer which sounds ridiculous regarding power levels.

Who said the next threat is a higher power level? We just went down quite a ways after beating up a Titan in Legion.

[Nyel]

Lol it's funny how some of you try to depict Arthas as innocent.

[Ersula]

For me this is silly because then we cannot hold anyone accountable for anything because, in the end, they could have always been corrupted by X/Y/Z or they did this because they had a tough childhood.

Exactly. Azshara might have been corrupted by the magic and her power. Sylvanas as well.

They've been getting away from the whole concept of corruption because the morals of it are problematic. Arthas was apparently "corrupted" everything that led him there was his own, bad decision. The same for Garrosh. Even if we never see it, we can assume something similar happened with Deathwing. They're bad. They wanted to annihilate the world for the sake of annihilating the world.

Azshara is entirely self-interested, on a D&D alignment chart, that's evil. But it's no where near as bad as other WoW villains.

But then the third class of villains is Illidan & Sylvanas. They've killed scores of people but it was for a good reason: Destroying the Legion, or in Sylvanas' case, if she needs to kill a lot of people to "free" everyone from eternal damnation, that's a good thing.

[Raetary]

But where do we go beyond that when it comes to power levels.

Cata and mop say hi.
Legion and BfA say hi.

[Nyel]

Cata and mop say hi.
Legion and BfA say hi.

Excuse me but we haven't fought someone older than the Titans before. And that's my point, not that we cannot go back to lesser evils. We cannot go much higher than that (e.g. Void Lords).

[Zexaniro]

I actually see Arthas 'bringing Sylvanas back down' and soothing her. Arthas is key to Sylvanas finding peace - I imagine that Sylvanas does something corny at the end of this expansion like wandering off to find herself or something along those lines.

[Gorsameth]

But where do we go beyond that when it comes to power levels. The Jailer is older than the Titan stuff around Azeroth. And then? Void Lords is the only thing above it. By making the Jailer such an ancient figure it's very hard to top that which is a major problem in generating new threats.

And you know what's even worse? Ion said Sylvanas is not (!) below the Jailer which sounds ridiculous regarding power levels.

We have beaten Elemental Lords, powered up Dragon Aspects, Old Gods and Titans.

Properly scaling power level from one enemy to the next isn't a thing.

[Ersula]

I actually see Arthas 'bringing Sylvanas back down' and soothing her. Arthas is key to Sylvanas finding peace - I imagine that Sylvanas does something corny at the end of this expansion like wandering off to find herself or something along those lines.

*Sylvanas releases all the souls of the maw*
*Uses her new Unsworn Valkyr friends to resurrect all of them*
*Everyone who ever died gets a second chance at life*
*Bolvar does the whipping-boy thing & Becomes the new combined Arbiter/Jailer*

More like the other way around. Sylvanas redeems Arthas

[Makabreska]

I honestly try to figure out if this is worse than a potential Azshara / Sylvanas redemption arc or not.

At least Arthas had good intentions at the start.

[Zexaniro]

*Sylvanas releases all the souls of the maw*
*Uses her new Unsworn Valkyr friends to resurrect all of them*
*Everyone who ever died gets a second chance at life*
*Bolvar does the whipping-boy thing & Becomes the new combined Arbiter/Jailer*

More like the other way around. Sylvanas redeems Arthas

well yeah, if Arthas helps bring Sylvanas back down then that in turn would help Arthas process the trauma and guilt of his living life as Sylvanas is emblematic of the evil he did.

[Ersula]

At least Arthas had good intentions at the start.

Like Anakin Skywalker, he said he had good intentions, but really he just wanted recognition & power. Ner'zul didn't make him kill his dad: That was all him.

[Cosmic Janitor]

But didn't you know? We "BROKE THE CYLCE!!!"

Either "BREAKING THE CYCLE!!!" only applies to faction leaders or Blizzard does not at all understand what "breaking the cycle" means.

My guess is Ion didn't know 8.2.5 happened.

[Ersula]

well yeah, if Arthas helps bring Sylvanas back down then that in turn would help Arthas process the trauma and guilt of his living life as Sylvanas is emblematic of the evil he did.

Why does Sylvanas need to be "brought down?" if her entire story is instances where we assume she just wants power, but then refuses it, revealing entirely new motivations. She wants to free us & she means it. We just don't understand it all yet.

[Makabreska]

Like Anakin Skywalker, he said he had good intentions, but really he just wanted recognition & power. Ner'zul didn't make him kill his dad: That was all him.

Actually, he was already under the effect of Frostmourne, and potentially Ner'zul as well. He was a DK at that time. The Burning Legion plan was to destabilize Lordaeron, and he kept doing that.

Why does Sylvanas need to be "brought down?" if her entire story is instances where we assume she just wants power, but then refuses it, revealing entirely new motivations. She wants to free us & she means it. We just don't understand it all yet.

Ye, no. What kind of "freeing"? From death? Well sorry sister, but that's how the life works. Time and time again it was shown that all she cares is to dodge eternal damnation she saw is awaiting her after her final death. I mean, sure. Let's not bring down a genocidal maniac that constantly makes deals with evil forces for her own personal gains, treats everyone around her as discardable pawns, and who now shattered a barrier to afterlife, creating another threat to Azeroth, just when we dealt with previous one.

Don't fool yourself. She was turned into a fully fledged villain in BfA. She won't survive Shadowlands.

[Zexaniro]

Why does Sylvanas need to be "brought down?" if her entire story is instances where we assume she just wants power, but then refuses it, revealing entirely new motivations. She wants to free us & she means it. We just don't understand it all yet.

because she is acting completely selfishly, turning against her own people in the process, in order to get what she wants (death). it hasn't been revealed what she really wants to accomplish with all of this, but from what we know Arthas would be key in bringing her story full circle, helping her process what he did to her etc. i'm very interested to see her relationship with Arthas develop through 9.0

[Raetary]

Plot twist, everything she had ever done was so she could fight arthas again and have a mental breakdown after winning which redeems both her and arthas.

[Ersula]

Actually, he was already under the effect of Frostmourne, and potentially Ner'zul as well. He was a DK at that time. The Burning Legion plan was to destabilize Lordaeron, and he kept doing that.

Ye, no. What kind of "freeing"? From death? Well sorry sister, but that's how the life works. Time and time again it was shown that all she cares is to dodge eternal damnation she saw is awaiting her after her final death. I mean, sure. Let's not bring down a genocidal maniac that constantly makes deals with evil forces for her own personal gains, treats everyone around her as discardable pawns, and who now shattered a barrier to afterlife, creating another threat to Azeroth, just when we dealt with previous one.

Don't fool yourself. She was turned into a fully fledged villain in BfA. She won't survive Shadowlands.

That's what they said about Illidan.

They clearly need to clarify some of the lore, like who was the Lich King before Ner'zul? Clearly Sargeras had some shadowland abilities because he could grant his followers the ability to traverse death itself. So making Frostmorne was part of that? To destabilize Lordaeron? Still "corruption" can't make you do anything that wasn't already your secret desire. & At this time Nerzul was already rebelling against the burning legion. That means while giving him Frostmorne was part of the legions plan, becoming a Scourge Minion was not. So he got manipulated by Mal'Ganis AND Kel'thuzad? Completely independently? At that point, he's evil just for being stupid.

Meanwhile, Sylvanas is smart. Clearly, in Azeroth "thats just how life is" is a lie. When first she saw the maw, she was innocent. She was a Hero of Silvermoon. She didn't deserve the maw. Then she saw it two more times...clearly that mother & baby killed by arthas in her Shadowbringer short were sent to the Maw as well clearly there was a travesty against nature going on & she is the only one who understands it enough to stop it

Clearly

[Makabreska]

Meanwhile, Sylvanas is smart. Clearly, in Azeroth "thats just how life is" is a lie. When first she saw the maw, she was innocent. She was a Hero of Silvermoon. She didn't deserve the maw. Then she saw it two more times...clearly that mother & baby killed by arthas in her Shadowbringer short were sent to the Maw as well clearly there was a travesty against nature going on & she is the only one who understands it enough to stop it

Are you really believing that she has noble intentions, after all she had done so far? Holy crap. One cinematic, and Sylvi apologists are coming out of the woodworks, after being in hiding most of BfA.

[Ersula]

Are you really believing that she has noble intentions, after all she had done so far? Holy crap. One cinematic, and Sylvi apologists are coming out of the woodworks, after being in hiding most of BfA.

Death is broken. And it was broken before Sylavans destroyed the helm.

If she wanted power, she would have just put on the helm.

Everyone hates her, so why would she be lying to Bolvar about wanting to "set us all free"

For the Dark Lady....always

[Sondrelk]

Death is broken. And it was broken before Sylavans destroyed the helm.

If she wanted power, she would have just put on the helm.

Everyone hates her, so why would she be lying to Bolvar about wanting to "set us all free"

For the Dark Lady....always

And where is teh proof that Death was broken before Sylvanas?
Kael'thas didnt go to the maw, so we know that at least as late as TBC it worked. Interestingly it seems like the problems start arising roughly around teh same time Sylvanas meets the Jailer. What a weird coincidence.