Titanforging returning in shadowlands (possibly)

[mojusk]

Because a difficult boss fight once per week doesn't compare to grinding infinite amounts of M+ if your looking for a high ilvl piece.

Outside of specific effects on items, raid bosses are not an efficient way to fish for TF procs.

did you respond to the wrong post? i agree with you, but i dont see how its a respond to what i posted :P

[Raelbo]

If I do heroic raids, I shouldn't be able to get gear equal to a mythic raider. If I do +2's, I shouldn't be able to get gear equal to or better than what drops in a +10

That's a completely unwarranted assertion.

Sure, someone doing heroic raiding shouldn't be able to become as well geared as someone doing mythic raiding. And someone sitting at M+2 level shouldn't be able to become as well geared as someone sitting at M+10. But it is entirely feasible to allow the possibility of exceptional pieces of gear dropping in the lower formats with zero risk of usurping the superiority of the higher formats.

It's not a matter of one piece not making a big difference, it has everything to do with satisfaction.

Unfortunately it's not possible for anyone to guarantee your satisfaction if you're going to refuse to be satisfied. Unless you have a reasonable basis for your dissatisfaction then you don't get to blame the game, it's on you.

And the simple mathematical fact is that a single exceptional piece of gear makes very little difference to overall performance. If you're going to get upset that someone else got a nicer piece of gear than you in one slot even though they're an LFR scrub and you're a mythic pro, despite the fact that you're still 40 ilevels above them and do 4 times as much dps...well then there's not much anyone can do to help you.

Hell, someone can do a WQ and get a max TF proc. Obviously if you do +10s or mythic raiding, the base ilvl is higher, so therefore you're likely to get better rewards, but that still doesn't offset the chance of someone getting equal, if not better gear from doing simple content.

Let's be clear here: There is a difference between gear (which means all of your equipped gear combined) and pieces of gear. Of the two it is the former that actually matters because it basically determines your power.

If we're talking the difference between elite content (mythic raiding or M+10) and simple content (WQs, M0, LFR), someone doing the simple content has a very small chance of getting an equal or better piece of gear to someone doing the elite content. But they have absolutely zero chance of getting better or equal gear. It's not even going to be close. The person doing the elite content is going to have 30+ ilevels on the person doing the simple content.

It divides the playerbase because people can play the game solo and be rewarded with BiS pieces potentially.

No it doesn't. What divides the playerbase is when people with horrid elitist mindsets choose to be bitter about "lesser" players with significantly weaker gear getting something nice.

It's about as pathetic as someone like Roger Federer getting upset because some kid wins a trophy for their school's U10 tennis tournament.

[wanax]

The fix for titanforging is an easy one that they want to avoid for whatever reason. Make TF a rank on gear that can be upgraded. 0/2. 1/2. 2/2. You can proc up to 2/2 but if you get a 0/2 drop you can upgrade it with raid drop currency.

[klaps_05]

They discussed this system very briefly, but I like where they are headed:

They said what if you can combine pants craft with 2 gems and then you get your crit/haste combo on your pants. Why not make this the main system of the game, thus making crafting professions super relevant.

Bosses no longer drop gear, but instead materials. So crafters can make all the gear like an enchant (so its still BOP to avoid inflating the market with high gear).

It can be something like (with the crafts as a bonus to the professions):

Tailoring - cloth gear and cloaks
Lw - leather
Blacksmithing - mail and plate, shields, melee weapons
Engineering - trinkets
Jewelcrafting - rings and making sockets in gear
Alchemy - neck
Enchanting - enchants for each armor slot
inscription - enhancements like the Corruption affixes and caster mh/staves/offhands

[Tradu]

Remove TF = killing m+.

And believe it or not there are actually people subbed and loving m+.

If they find another way to reward m+, while removing TF - that could be fine.

Make the weekly chest give more items the more dungeons you do each week, up to a cap. Or just have the first X dungeons you do each week drop loot at a higher ilevel(like how raiding has lockouts) and after that it drops down to a lower ilevel. And definitely have M+ coins drop "weekly chest ilevel" gear.

[Heathy]

to me titanforging is no different to items that have 1% drop chances, and valour upgrades, the former was exactly the same as titanforging, farming specific content in the hopes that the stars align and that item that never drops, finally drops. it could be 1 raid, it could be 100 raids, who knows. but you farm until you get it, or you ignore it and move on.

the latter valour upgrades for ilvl improvements, didn't feel fun at all, being compelled to farm valour cap so you could do your 4 upgrades just felt like something you had to do and wasn't that interesting to actually do farming shit tier content for badges, ie farming content you didn't need just for the currency. titanforging to me is just a combination of 1% drop rates and valour upgrades with ultimately less grind and more chances to get more ilvl. the old valour system had a cap but there isn't a cap on how many TF's you could get. except with the valour upgrades you were grinding for hours for what? a guaranteed 20 ilvl per week. so one titanforge.

to me the system always seemed like it was aimed at solo progression. if you're part of a guild that raids, you shouldn't have trouble getting base level gear for whatever difficulty you're doing, that'll allow you to progress into the next tier of that same difficulty.

the only titanforges that I ever cared about were trinkets, but I can't say that because a trinket drops and doesn't titanforge I feel somehow robbed, or if another item doesn't TF. ultimately running raids where you don't need anything and nothing will drop that you actually need, but you are in the raid because the raid needs players. would that feel like it was worth your time, if you knew nothing was going to drop that could be an upgrade.

I think the randomness of what actually titanforges can be annoying, but I don't mind the way in which gear gets spread around because of it. I don't mind passing gear to ppl because I already have a TF in that slot. ultimately there is more interaction there. where items would largely just get DE. I prefer a system that is balanced on random upgrades, rather than one that is based around consistent and mandatory farming quotas.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

according to taht roar at blizzcon i think the players enjoy end goals lol

do people truly think taht we stop playing once we get our BiS set??

theres more specs
theres aoe vs st
theres alts

you will still play more the only difference is you might enjoy the play time more than if it was just endless


heck just add manapearl system for boosting the ilvl of the gear if you want to keep TF at least that way we have some control which BFA has been deisgned to take away at every turn

That’s exactly my point, having obtainable goals and then achieving them feels ...rewarding!
I quit WoW after two months of Legion, AP grind felt like a job to raid. Same when I came back to try BfA but this time I quit after a month, came back for Azshara patch but quit after two weeks again. Before that I had played from the start, starting in Vanilla and never unsubbed before Legion.
Now I’m playing Classic, way more than what’s considered healthy and there’s not much to do! I got my main Paladin at 60 with full pre-raid bis (goal) and my guild is clearing MC and Ony in around 2-3 hrs once per week (another goal). Now I’m working on my grinding alt (hunter) who’s lvl 55 and almost at another goal!

Strip away goals, end goals, from people and you strip away satisfaction.

[Raelbo]

i just like the idea of being done with gearing my character sometimes
like knowing that my main is sitting with the best of the best gear and now can be top of my game

That is how the game was for a long time. The reason they moved away from that is that it was severely problematic. It was problematic principally because it landed up becoming the de facto standard to which everyone was expected to adhere. This would be perfect if everyone was the same. But we are not.

Farming for BiS works well for people who like to farm for around the amount of time required to achieve BiS. For everyone else (ie the vast majority) it either landed up ending too soon, leaving the player bored and impatient for the next tier, or landed up taking too long, leaving the player burned out and tired of playing.

The only "problem" with TF is that it forces you, the player, to make a decision regarding where you want to stop and clearly some players don't particularly like that. They want the game to tell them where to stop, but of course only if the game tells them to stop at the point where they want to stop. So why not just choose that point? Because they want the game to dictate that stopping point to everyone else. Simply put, everyone wants the game to put the cap on how much you should grind at the point you want to stop grinding so that no one else can get an advantage over you through playing more.

- - - Updated - - -

That’s exactly my point, having obtainable goals and then achieving them feels ...rewarding!

Yes. And guess what. There are hundreds of obtainable goals that you can achieve and they all feel ...rewarding!

(You just can't achieve BiS in every slot).

So here's a very easy solution: Set an obtainable goal. Feel ...rewarded!

Strip away goals, end goals, from people and you strip away satisfaction.

TF is not responsible for stripping away anything. In fact it does the opposite because you are now free to set the right goals based on your personal circumstances. Sensible (raid) goals include:

• Getting to a certain point of progression/clearing the raid on a certain difficulty within a certain period of time.
• Reaching a certain ilevel which you feel is sufficient to give you a head start into the next tier
• Set a time limit of how long you want to keep farming after clearing the final boss
• Keep farming after clearing the final boss for as long as your guild is enjoying the farm and then take a break.

Non-sensible goals:

• Getting BiS
• Grinding indefinitely until either the next tier drops or you are ready to tear your own eyes out
• Getting the best gear possible even if it kills you

TL;DR: You should be playing this game in a manner which you enjoy, and this should be reflected in your goals. The TF paradigm removed a lot of the restrictions that constrained our goals in the past and gives us the freedom to set realistic and healthy goals. But it also allows you to set retarded goals (because that is pretty much a requirement of genuine freedom). Ultimately your ability to enjoy the game is in your hands.

[Kralljin]

If the numbers tell blizzard that corruption is more fun they will use that. If the numbers tell blizzard titanforging is more fun they will use that.

There are no numbers that tell you that.

Game design is to some extent a work of art, there is no objective metric to judge a "good" game or "good" mechanic, that's up to interpretation.
Designing a progression based game solely upon (participation) numbers leads to bad decisions sooner or later.

There is no "fun meter" that you can simply read and tell "oh, that's what people like!".

Ghostcrawler called this the "Mechanar syndrome", where people did Mechanar each day not because it was an amazingly designed Instance, but because it was the most efficient dungeon to grind Badges of Justice.

[dojichan]

There are no numbers that tell you that.

Game design is to some extent a work of art, there is no objective metric to judge a "good" game or "good" mechanic, that's up to interpretation.
Designing a progression based game solely upon (participation) numbers leads to bad decisions sooner or later.

There is no "fun meter" that you can simply read and tell "oh, that's what people like!".

Ghostcrawler called this the "Mechanar syndrome", where people did Mechanar each day not because it was an amazingly designed Instance, but because it was the most efficient dungeon to grind Badges of Justice.

So if no numbers every imply a game is good or bad... why do people put weight into things like subscription numbers; hours played; retention rate
Your premise that no numbers exist seems faulty.

I do agree that Mechanar syndrome is a thing but that is just evidence that one specific type of metric is useless.

TL;DR: You should be playing this game in a manner which you enjoy, and this should be reflected in your goals. The TF paradigm removed a lot of the restrictions that constrained our goals in the past and gives us the freedom to set realistic and healthy goals. But it also allows you to set retarded goals (because that is pretty much a requirement of genuine freedom). Ultimately your ability to enjoy the game is in your hands.

This^^ Exactly this.

[Eapoe]

Overall I want TF gone, but if it does stay I think a decent alternative is a currency that you can get over time (resets every tier) that allows you to upgrade your gear up to the TF level. It doesn’t even have to give enough currency for every piece, maybe just 3-4.
That way, even those with shitty luck will have a few pieces.

[Kralljin]

why do people put weight into things like subscription numbers

In most cases, people use sub numbers as argument to proof where they think the game was good / became bad.

You see this argument every time, people say Wotlk was the best expansion because it had highest sub numbers, then people come out of the woods and say Vanilla / TBC was best because it had the highest sub growth.

Who's right now?

hours played

/Played only tells you a person enjoys your game, not what they enjoy within the game.

A lot of hardcore raiders probably spent a shit ton of time grinding AP / farming Essences / leveling alts & farming that shit on alts again.
Did they enjoy that? I'd say no.

The exact causation of these numbers are up to debate, not that they exist, this is obviously what you want to find out.
This is what i mean by "fun meter", because simply reading existing numbers is a no brainer, but you can't find a chart that tells you "this activity / gameplay loop is super fun".
Simply using participation rates as metric is also faulty, because by that logic, the kill X at the start of literally every character has been done by every single WoW player and thus would be the "best thing ever" because it has 100% participation rates.
Similiar thing goes for Island expedition or Warfronts, i bet their participation numbers are decent, but i don't think the playerbase looks fondly upon those.

In regards to the post i quoted, reading out of a chart that Titanforging is superior / worse than Corrupted involves a lot of guesswork, because all you can do in this case is looking at sub numbers of 8.3 and comparing them to previously.

Which is on top of that a lot more difficult because 8.3 will have to deal with a presumed 8+ Month of content drought, so you even need to take that account as well.

[Swnem]

This is the kind of argument I was just talking about.

There is nothing wrong with stopping once you are done with it. But that's no reason to remove TF. Because by the same token, there is nothing wrong with carrying on once you are done with it.

TF gives people a reason to replay content. It doesn't force people to replay content. It gives us choice, and choice is a good thing. I really wish that the people who incessantly moan about the endless grind created by TF could somehow accept this instead of insisting that have to play in a manner that they hate - and then laying the blame of a game system.

Titanforging makes you feel FORCED to run that content over and over. It is too rewarding, to the point it becomes mandatory.
It is not a good thing and it is unnecessary. It makes zero sense to ruin the gearing system and sense of accomplishment for a chance to get something when you are carrying, as you bore yourself to death from running the same thing over and over cause you feel you HAVE to. It's a system we don't need. It brings more negatives than positives.
The game IS to blame. Players will always play in the most efficient form to gain the most power. It is naíve of you to think this is a choice. The choice is wether to care about the game systems or not. If you don't care about the game systems you are well in your way to not caring about the game cause everything will feel pointless. Infinite grinds don't work and aren't fun. It's that simple. They are no choice, they are a necessity in the pursuit of power. That is why caps are necessary.

End of the day, titanforging was never needed and does more harm than good.

[Nnyco]

I don't really get the point of titanforging when you can just wait till the next patch and get tons of catch-up gear that trivializes previous patch's raids anyways...

Why gear up at all when its all useless next xpac.

[Molis]

Just have a single currency for upgrading gear and be done with it.

Whether it is the current iteration or the MoP model I dont care.

Give me a goal and let me do many different activities to attain that goal (including Pet Battles)

Some times Blizzard changes thing to be shiny and new, and they never even needed to change it.

Let the amount of currency you get titan forge for an occasional bonus

[nicbizz]

That’s exactly my point, having obtainable goals and then achieving them feels ...rewarding!
I quit WoW after two months of Legion, AP grind felt like a job to raid. Same when I came back to try BfA but this time I quit after a month, came back for Azshara patch but quit after two weeks again. Before that I had played from the start, starting in Vanilla and never unsubbed before Legion.
Now I’m playing Classic, way more than what’s considered healthy and there’s not much to do! I got my main Paladin at 60 with full pre-raid bis (goal) and my guild is clearing MC and Ony in around 2-3 hrs once per week (another goal). Now I’m working on my grinding alt (hunter) who’s lvl 55 and almost at another goal!

Strip away goals, end goals, from people and you strip away satisfaction.

I'm a little puzzled by your comment. You clearly set some reasonable goals for Classic (pre-raid Dungeon gear, MC 2-3 hours a week).

What exactly is stopping you from setting similar goals for BfA? Perhaps neck at 65? Heroic EP gear in all slots? Granted, the game now allows you to go higher if you want to, but those are simply choices, and choices are good.

I think of this like a racetrack - I putter around at 220km/h and is perfectly happy. Can the car and track hit 325km/h? Sure. But I'm not Kimi Raikonen, and I'm not willing to put in what it takes to be one.

I'm with Raelbo on this - I see more good than bad from TF/WF as far as the general player base is concerned.

[huth]

There are no numbers that tell you that.

Game design is to some extent a work of art, there is no objective metric to judge a "good" game or "good" mechanic, that's up to interpretation.
Designing a progression based game solely upon (participation) numbers leads to bad decisions sooner or later.

There is no "fun meter" that you can simply read and tell "oh, that's what people like!".

Ghostcrawler called this the "Mechanar syndrome", where people did Mechanar each day not because it was an amazingly designed Instance, but because it was the most efficient dungeon to grind Badges of Justice.

What is a poll. That's literally the entire point of doing representative polls, creating a metric for things that can't be objectively measured, like opinions and preferences.

You're mistaking the lack of a simple method for the complete lack of a method to do it.

"Mechanar Syndrome" is just an example of why participation numbers alone aren't sufficient. Not that they're meaningless. If everybody flocks to a specific instance, there's probably a reason for it, and the devs should take a look at it.

[Gorsameth]

I'm a little puzzled by your comment. You clearly set some reasonable goals for Classic (pre-raid Dungeon gear, MC 2-3 hours a week).

What exactly is stopping you from setting similar goals for BfA? Perhaps neck at 65? Heroic EP gear in all slots? Granted, the game now allows you to go higher if you want to, but those are simply choices, and choices are good.

I think of this like a racetrack - I putter around at 220km/h and is perfectly happy. Can the car and track hit 325km/h? Sure. But I'm not Kimi Raikonen, and I'm not willing to put in what it takes to be one.

I'm with Raelbo on this - I see more good than bad from TF/WF as far as the general player base is concerned.

The problem is in psychology.
Knowing you could do more but chose not to creates a different reacting in your brain compared to reaching a definitive goal where you can't go further.

[CrawlFromThePit]

A Dev states that it might return in the next expansion but they are currently watching the corruption system in 8.3 closely......wtf no

When the patch was announced Watcher said they want the strongest gear from the hardest content and now we see that they are possibly going to scrap this new system that is at least more exciting than TF because.....why??

They worked on this new system but might trash everything because TF is a lazy solution I guess.

I wish they could respond this quickly to actual feedback instead of years later.

Players say a system is flawed and it takes years for it to be fixed. Blizz says they listen but if they decide to make a shitty choice it goes in immediately and feedback be damned

If they change it so it has a cap, effectively making LFR items NEVER better than heroic gear (for example) then I have no issue with it. If it remains as it is now, it's bullshit.

[huth]

If they change it so it has a cap, effectively making LFR items NEVER better than heroic gear (for example) then I have no issue with it. If it remains as it is now, it's bullshit.

It effectively does. A +30 is extremely rare, higher than that is a once a lifetime thing. Most TFs don't even get to +20. A HC player will likely have at least a few +5 and +10s, putting him even further away.

I don't get this obsession with wanting to keep LFR players down. All you're doing is hurting yourself through obsessing over something that doesn't actually effect you.