Returning Class Abilities in Shadowlands

[Crionics]

It's a PVP talent yes.

[Krille]

Don't we already have Shiv? I thought I've seen Shiv in PvP abilities.

All of these changes are about bringing back these spells baseline. Not talents or PVP talents.

[valky94]

When Holinka gave an example of an iconic class ability he picked fucking Shiv but not Gouge ????????

Gouge has been my fucking "4" keybind since 2005 and playing this class without it feels like absolute fucking trash

pretty sure rogue still has gouge (outlaw atleast)

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lol shiv. has anyone ever used shiv in the history of wow?

pretty sure it was used as an enrage dispeller

[Lodravel]

Calm your mammaries.

Remember that interview where Ion talked about the subtlety touch-up? If anything, wanting to bring it back to it's rogue roots and putting emphasis on control and it being the PvP-spec means that Gouge will hopefully see a return.

[tylenol]

I say we bring back the 30 yard auto attack range

[Spyro-]

lol shiv. has anyone ever used shiv in the history of wow?

Looks like you haven't PvP'd much.

[Kyarxadron]

I remember using shiv on Gorefiend constructs to slow them down, good times.

[Kaver]

When Holinka gave an example of an iconic class ability he picked fucking Shiv but not Gouge ????????

Gouge has been my fucking "4" keybind since 2005 and playing this class without it feels like absolute fucking trash

You’re so selfish. You always talk about YOUR keybind and YOUR spec.. what about other people? Do you even care about anybody else than yourself? You big baby!

[shoegazing]

You’re so selfish. You always talk about YOUR keybind and YOUR spec.. what about other people? Do you even care about anybody else than yourself? You big baby!

The irony here is delicious because Subtlety has been a PvP spec for most of its history and has a much greater % of its players being PvP focused than other WoW specs.

Meanwhile, Rogue class is a pure melee dps, with 3 leather wearing, agility using, melee dps specs, and those other specs have offered great cleave and throughput for PvE content for years. The Legion and BFA designs of Subtlety Rogue ruined Subtlety PvP and brought a new audience of PvE Rogues to Subtlety, who already had other great choices. And you say that the PvP Rogues are the selfish ones, without the slightest hint of self awareness.

And in case you need any further cluing in, Gouge is a button that PvPers care about A LOT.

[InfernalDark]

Hope they remove shroud, I'm so sick n tired of that ability.

[Soisoisoi]

Gouge has been my fucking "4" keybind since 2005 and playing this class without it feels like absolute fucking trash

Same, my #4 too. Empty slot because I can't not have it there. That and Blind for all specs is severely missed.

Umm dispelling enrages? Better crippling poison?

Shiving Mind Numbing onto Gargoyles and such too, completely nerfing DKs big damage cooldown.


OT: Personally I'll be happy with the following coming back to all specs
Gouge
Blind
Shiv
Rupture (not the magic DoT that can be dispelled/cloaked)

[mickybrighteyes]

lol shiv. has anyone ever used shiv in the history of wow?

actually yeah. on demand poison proccs were rather nifty but yeah... there are way better options to pick as 'iconic' for rogues.

Detect traps, gouge, poisons, slice and dice... i'd take a nod for burst of speed and the heal over time finisher even. all of those before Shiv imo.

[Soisoisoi]

actually yeah. on demand poison proccs were rather nifty but yeah... there are way better options to pick as 'iconic' for rogues.

Detect traps, gouge, poisons, slice and dice... i'd take a nod for burst of speed and the heal over time finisher even. all of those before Shiv imo.

I disagree with BoS/Recup, personally I find they ended up giving the entire game bad gamplay. Recuperate just meant you'd sit in stealth premed-recuping to full, whereas Vial can be used as an actual heal, not wasting CP and was more in a shorter space of time - so, more useful vs burst. Burst of Speed in a similar setting allowed the likes of Frozen Ammo to be a thing, something you basically needed to ever touch a class like Hunter or Mage that can kite indefinitely, but by the time you got there, you'd have no Energy. Shadowstep was always a better pick, it just felt shit to not be able to sprint all the time.

[Kaver]

The irony here is delicious because Subtlety has been a PvP spec for most of its history and has a much greater % of its players being PvP focused than other WoW specs.

Meanwhile, Rogue class is a pure melee dps, with 3 leather wearing, agility using, melee dps specs, and those other specs have offered great cleave and throughput for PvE content for years. The Legion and BFA designs of Subtlety Rogue ruined Subtlety PvP and brought a new audience of PvE Rogues to Subtlety, who already had other great choices. And you say that the PvP Rogues are the selfish ones, without the slightest hint of self awareness.

And in case you need any further cluing in, Gouge is a button that PvPers care about A LOT.

I didn't say PvP Rogues are selfish. I said that YOU are selfish, because you always talk about you, you and more you

In WoD (... where: Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA) Subtlety was the best spec for raiding. WoW is mainly about PvE. The PvP in WoW has not really evolved since BC because nobody really care about it (only weirdos). In WoD, Subtlety is remembered as a great PvE spec. Saying that a greater % of Sub players focus on PvP is just you being completely delusional... YOU lack awareness my selfish friend.

And in case you need any further cluing in, Gouge is a button that PvE'ers care about A LOT (for M+)

[Polarthief]

lol shiv. has anyone ever used shiv in the history of wow?

Actually yes, it's very useful when enrages exist (Raging in M+ for example), and when you need to guarantee a cripping or other non-lethal poison. Didn't it also amplify non-lethal effects?

But, I would like to see Gouge and Kidney returned to baseline.

actually yeah. on demand poison proccs were rather nifty but yeah... there are way better options to pick as 'iconic' for rogues.

Detect traps, gouge, poisons, slice and dice... i'd take a nod for burst of speed and the heal over time finisher even. all of those before Shiv imo.

Recup is unhealthy. Burst of Speed is extremely unhealthy. They had to go.

S&D just makes for a second maintenance buff for Outlaw, and now to add another one for the others, when you could just adjust baseline attack speed instead. It does not need a comeback at all, especially when Grand Melee+Buried Treasure is literally it.

PS: As much as I loved Burst of Speed, it absolutely had to go. It's too good. Recup is too good while simultaneously being obnoxious to use.

[mickybrighteyes]

I disagree with BoS/Recup, personally I find they ended up giving the entire game bad gamplay.

Not really the topic I was commenting on but ok. I was thinking of skills that are more iconic to 'rogue' in general rather than what skills are 'better' with respect to any facet of gameplay. Shiv was far more niche and woefully less useful in general than most skills we can name.

Recuperate just meant you'd sit in stealth premed-recuping to full, whereas Vial can be used as an actual heal, not wasting CP and was more in a shorter space of time - so, more useful vs burst.

Recuperate was the first iteration of any rogue class skill that provided any healing. It served it's purpose and was a nice added thing when you lacked self healing options. I wasn't trying to discuss the pros/cons or compare to other skills we later see in various situations and I know I use to use recuperate when soloing older content when paired with leeching poison.

Burst of Speed in a similar setting allowed the likes of Frozen Ammo to be a thing, something you basically needed to ever touch a class like Hunter or Mage that can kite indefinitely, but by the time you got there, you'd have no Energy. Shadowstep was always a better pick, it just felt shit to not be able to sprint all the time.

Again, I'm not talking about any sort of set up or 'what is a better skill where'... but Shadow step wasn't saving you shit for clear times in some places. Moving at mount speed while stealthed was a very amusing thing in mount restricted areas.

again, I was not discussing pvp builds, pvp balance or anything of the sort (you clearly are). I was saying there are a nice list of other 'iconic' rogue skills to pick from than 'shiv', BoS got a lot more threads on it than Shiv ever did.

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S&D just makes for a second maintenance buff for Outlaw, and now to add another one for the others, when you could just adjust baseline attack speed instead. It does not need a comeback at all, especially when Grand Melee+Buried Treasure is literally it.

was thinking about for non-outlaw not outlaw as the subject is about the possible 'pruned' abilities brought back.

IMO the way roll the bones is is far worse than Burst of Speed's impact on pvp balance. But then again, I abhor RNG effects like that as a main feature of a build.

[Polarthief]

was thinking about for non-outlaw not outlaw as the subject is about the possible 'pruned' abilities brought back.

IMO the way roll the bones is is far worse than Burst of Speed's impact on pvp balance. But then again, I abhor RNG effects like that as a main feature of a build.

I still don't see the need. Maintenance buffs are cancer (that includes RTB but I doubt it's going away).

I don't disagree. I personally would love if they removed 5-buff (because it's broken and stupid), and maybe dropped the buffs to 4, mixing the mediocre ones together. I also had an idea for our mastery to not be total ass and maybe increase the chance you get 2-buffs as well as amplifying their effects (such as more crit from RP or more attack speed from GM).

[shoegazing]

I still don't see the need. Maintenance buffs are cancer (that includes RTB but I doubt it's going away).

If you look outside a PvE context, Slice and Dice is an interesting button. We used to have outstanding variety and decisionmaking with finishers -- do you refresh SnD to keep up pressure, energy, and poison procs or is it better to spend those combo points on a Kidney Shot for the healer? You can get SnD up with Premed before opening, but what if you are coming off a restealth and already have it up? It completely changes the rotational math on your PvP opener in that case, opening up different possibilities for how to optimally spend combo points for stunlock and burst. These interactions and decisions didn't exist to much extent in PvE but the gameplay around them was interesting in PvP.

Another example, when combo points were on the target instead of being on the Rogue, was getting up maintenance buffs increase offensive output *at the same time while peeling an enemy team's opener* as demonstrated by Reckful in this clip:

[mickybrighteyes]

I still don't see the need. Maintenance buffs are cancer (that includes RTB but I doubt it's going away).

Again, I'm not discussing the use or impact of those effects in anyway. I was citing 'Iconic Rogue Class abilites' and listing off ones that seemed more historically relevant to 'rogues' than Shiv.

I am not discussing the usage of said skills in mythic+, pvp, raids, or any area of teh game where people min/max. My list would generally extend to other skills still in the game but restricted by spec cause of how the game developed post WoD.


As this thread wasn't about how various skills impact whatever environment and was originally started over this idea about how relevant 'Shiv' is to 'Rogue' theme I don't understand the logic steps taken to discuss the various impacts of whatever skills in relation to [insert game mode].

[shoegazing]

As this thread wasn't about how various skills impact whatever environment and was originally started over this idea about how relevant 'Shiv' is to 'Rogue' theme I don't understand the logic steps taken to discuss the various impacts of whatever skills in relation to [insert game mode].

Yes it is irrelevant because we are talking about what is iconic not what is useful, but even those voices who are saying "X, Y, Z isn't even useful, why would they bring that back" are coming from such a narrow view of the game ("how it plays on Patchwerk is the entirety of class design") that it's trivially easy to refute their bad points about what is useful, interesting, or fun.