Mega-Thread: Impeachment Proceedings & Inquiry of Trump

[Jotaux]

It still cracks me up that despite my deeply held conservative beliefs, voting for Hillary Clinton in 2016 was the easiest Presidential vote of my life.

https://i.imgur.com/Sot3fPc.png

kind of like my vote in 2018 for Warren and Clark.

https://i.imgur.com/k3UkBlK.png

(and no, in Massachusetts, this does not count as a marred ballot because the scantron will not get confused by my voting intentions. I checked.).

Here you are not allowed to take pictures of your ballot.

[Omega10]

*shakes head in agreement* That's pretty good.

If it's like twitter, they're currently losing their minds over Chik-fil-a and some Democrat farting on TV.

They're in a "I can't believe this is happening!" mode. But don't worry, they'll turn out in force when the Senate doesn't vote to convict. Because that is exactly how they work.

They don't believe in the rule of law. There is not a single Trumphadi in this forum who legitimately believes in it, no matter h ow they profess they do. I wish naming names were fair game because it is fair to hold them to account. They don't get to spend years talking about the constitution and rule of law, and slink away like the cowards they are when the time comes for them to take a stand for those things, just because their chosen orange lord is on the wrong side of it.

Speaking generally and not about site moderation, the ability to directly confront Trumphadis with the things they say matters. It's a crucial part of the PAC I work's at approach (something I've discussed at some length in threads before). They are the problem. Trump is symptomatic. Trump is only Trump because they let him keep doing it. Not confronting them directly and making them eat their words, whatever the circumstances and location (not specifically referring to MMO-OT) is a crucial part to getting out of this dark era and restoring political normality to this country.

They must be broken of this "up is down" and "everything is possible, nothing is for sure" political approach that _is_ new to American politics. Political people always rally around candidates and parties. That's nothing new. But what they're doing here is directly out of what United Russia does with Putin. It's very foreign to the United States. And unless we can confront it, head on, wherever it lies, then this will continue into the post-Trump era, which I think we all see is rapidly approaching.

The battle will be long and hard. I am hoping that republicans get wiped out in 2020, and it is definitely a distinct possibility. Not just at the federal level, but also at the state level. I would say that this is the number one priority of the United States at this time. Watching republicans question Sondland was just plain painful.

Since the mainstream media is so unreliable these days, I often rely on this site as well as a few others for insight into what's really happening. I did not watch any of the investigation until today.

What I found out is this site works really hard to not describe just how vile, dangerous, dishonest, and treasonous the republican questioners are. Since the republican party supports this crap, they are not an opponent but instead are an enemy of the United States.

At this point the only priority is to drive republicans out of office. While I have my personal preferences about just which democrat I would like, and what I would like him or her to do, it is far more important to defeat the enemy first.

[eschatological]

Every day I think I'm about to wake up from this nightmare, but no, I live in an idiocracy.


The best part is that when I confront rampant and rabid stupidity with facts and logic, I'm accused of.......what? Not being tolerant of right-leaning folks? Being part of the problem? Being elitist? Shit, I'm a lawyer, you're goddamn right my opinion about law means more than the guy who couldn't make it through high school in 4 years. I keep thinking of this quote from Isaac Asimov, and can't get it out of my head:

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

Today was exhausting, mainly because I am almost 100% certain that Trump will not be convicted and removed from office by the Senate, and that will somehow be used as vindication during his entire re-election campaign, despite the facts being so utterly against him.

[Thekri]

It will be after the Great Retcon, whereby there were actually no Trump supporting Republicans, and Trump became the first President nobody actually voted for.

You see, all the Republicans today? They're just playing along to keep Trump on the straight and narrow. Yeah. They didn't vote for him or support him. Nosiree.

That won't be the first one. Find someone that admits to voting for Nixon's second term. It was one of the biggest landslides in American political history, but apparently nobody but Roger Stone voted for him.

[Justank]

Every day I think I'm about to wake up from this nightmare, but no, I live in an idiocracy.


The best part is that when I confront rampant and rabid stupidity with facts and logic, I'm accused of.......what? Not being tolerant of right-leaning folks? Being part of the problem? Being elitist? Shit, I'm a lawyer, you're goddamn right my opinion about law means more than the guy who couldn't make it through high school in 4 years. I keep thinking of this quote from Isaac Asimov, and can't get it out of my head:



Today was exhausting, mainly because I am almost 100% certain that Trump will not be convicted and removed from office by the Senate, and that will somehow be used as vindication during his entire re-election campaign, despite the facts being so utterly against him.

Asimov is my favorite author, the current truth in that quote hurts. Close relations are already spamming clips of irrelevant questions about Biden, it's going to be a long week. I only bothered to argue about it once earlier on in this scandal and I'm not bothering anymore cause facts don't penetrate.

[Benggaul]

I know I'm posting a lot from Twitter, but there's been a lot of gold on there the past week or so. This one had me cracking up. The expression says it all.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1...563380738?s=20

These hearings are not exactly endearing people to the GOP.

[Skroe]

Cooper just said in her opening statement that Ukraine was aware of the hold. And she has the emails to prove it.

We knew that already circumstantially and implicitly, but she said it just now, explicitly.

And the case is complete.


Now get John Bolton in here to put the last nail in the coffin.

[eschatological]

That won't be the first one. Find someone that admits to voting for Nixon's second term. It was one of the biggest landslides in American political history, but apparently nobody but Roger Stone voted for him.

85%+ of this country supported President Bush's plan to invade Iraq. Not Afghanistan - Iraq. Now you can't find anyone who supported that war besides Skroe, and the public massively punishes any politician who had the temerity to.....do what their constituency wanted them to do.

Man, I so remember going to those protests throughout the first few months of '03 and being told I was a traitor to my country for not supporting the President in a "time of war."

[Stormspellz]

85%+ of this country supported President Bush's plan to invade Iraq. Not Afghanistan - Iraq. Now you can't find anyone who supported that war besides Skroe, and the public massively punishes any politician who had the temerity to.....do what their constituency wanted them to do.

Man, I so remember going to those protests throughout the first few months of '03 and being told I was a traitor to my country for not supporting the President in a "time of war."

That is a bad example due to the Bush administration lying and fabrication of evidence

[Captain N]

8Man, I so remember going to those protests throughout the first few months of '03 and being told I was a traitor to my country for not supporting the President in a "time of war."

Now you're a traitor if you say the President sucks. Man how times have changed.

[Grapemask]

85%+ of this country supported President Bush's plan to invade Iraq. Not Afghanistan - Iraq. Now you can't find anyone who supported that war besides Skroe

Hey, I actually mostly support that war. I grew up during Saddam's years of shitting all over his people. I'm not sure if we did that country any favors in how we went about it, but I was and am all for the fact that we got that pigfucker off that throne.

[eschatological]

Hey, I actually mostly support that war. I grew up during Saddam's years of shitting all over his people. I'm not sure if we did that country any favors in how we went about it, but I was and am all for the fact that we got that pigfucker off that throne.

Not to go too far off-topic, but in conjunction with the UK, the U.S. helped install and empower Saddam, even going so far to feign ignorance when he asked if he could invade Kuwait in the 80s. Hell, the British helped him build the mustard gas factories he would later use to kill the Kurds.

All in the name of hopefully being a counter to Iran, which worked out......awfully, and just pushed Iran into an even further state of Islamic theocracy after experimenting briefly with democracy.

This shit has been going on since the 80s (well, Nixon and the 70s, but at least the counterculture won that one), and Trump is the culmination of it.

[StarDog]

85%+ of this country supported President Bush's plan to invade Iraq. Not Afghanistan - Iraq. Now you can't find anyone who supported that war besides Skroe, and the public massively punishes any politician who had the temerity to.....do what their constituency wanted them to do.

Man, I so remember going to those protests throughout the first few months of '03 and being told I was a traitor to my country for not supporting the President in a "time of war."

You know, for as much as the Right hollers about "PC" and "Cancel Culture" I will never tire of pointing out that one of the most popular bands in the country at the time--The Dixie Chicks--had their careers utterly destroyed overnight by these exact same people because they said "President Bush sucks, this war is bullshit."

Also: freedom fries.

[Shadowferal]

Saddam's admin was pretty much a secular regime. One of the reasons the "West" backed him.

[Skroe]

Hey, I actually mostly support that war. I grew up during Saddam's years of shitting all over his people. I'm not sure if we did that country any favors in how we went about it, but I was and am all for the fact that we got that pigfucker off that throne.

The Iraq War is somewhat analogous to the Eastern Roman Empire's wars against Sasanian PersianEmpire in the 7th century. The Sasanians staged a minor incursion (but had grander goals) after decades of hostilities with the Romans. The Romans retaliated and both began a nearly three decade inconclusive war that depleted their resources and manpower broke the power of both of them. The Sasanians, in greater political disarray were rapidly conquered by Abu Bakr's Rashidun Caliphate (the direct successor to Mohammed) and islamicized, just three years later. The Byzantines lost almost all of the Middle East and North Africa within 20 years. Historians had argued had the Byzantines and Sasanians never fought that war, Islam would have been contained to Arabia far longer, Zoroastrianism would not have been largely replaced in Persia, and the Byzantine Empire would have entered the Middle Ages in far better shape.

In the contemporary case, the long term cost of the War in Iraq and War on Terror is that the main conflict of the 21st century - the US-China New Cold War to define the new international order going forward - is that the US will fight that war on far more even terms, and far less resourced than it otherwise would have. We're likely to win it. But we could conceivably lose it, because we lost about 15 crucial years of preparation for it, in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And ultimately, like the Byzantine-Sasanian Wars would not have significantly improved the security of either empire short of outright destruction of the other, the inconclusive brushfire wars of the 21st century have not done the same.

- - - Updated - - -



And that's the ballgame.

- - - Updated - - -

A beautiful part of the Trump era and the Impeachment effort is that it is turning Democrats into activist champions for upholding the liberal international order and defending it from Russia and China.

[cubby]

Every day I think I'm about to wake up from this nightmare, but no, I live in an idiocracy.

The best part is that when I confront rampant and rabid stupidity with facts and logic, I'm accused of.......what? Not being tolerant of right-leaning folks? Being part of the problem? Being elitist? Shit, I'm a lawyer, you're goddamn right my opinion about law means more than the guy who couldn't make it through high school in 4 years. I keep thinking of this quote from Isaac Asimov, and can't get it out of my head:

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

Today was exhausting, mainly because I am almost 100% certain that Trump will not be convicted and removed from office by the Senate, and that will somehow be used as vindication during his entire re-election campaign, despite the facts being so utterly against him.

I could not agree more about how exhausting the Impeachment hearings and the larger picture has been. And the cult of ignorance that surrounds those Trumpsters that enmeshed in denying the reality of Trump's bribery and extortion impeachment is equally amazing and frightening.

Asimov's quote should be put on a plaque and nailed above the entrance to the Oval Office. We cannot afford this shit again. If another "Trump" is elected, they will almost certainly be better/smarter than Trump and his crime family, the United States won't survive.

[Redwyrm]

Impeachment question. Now that Pence is directly implicated (and you guys didn't have faith that we could get Pence at the same time ), will we have to have two impeachment hearings to toss Trump and Pence out or can we group them together BOGO style.

[Edge-]

And that's the ballgame.

"But what we really meant was..."

Don't worry, they have a fleet of John Deere tractors ready to haul the goalposts to the next solar system.

[cubby]

Impeachment question. Now that Pence is directly implicated (and you guys didn't have faith that we could get Pence at the same time ), will we have to have two impeachment hearings to toss Trump and Pence out or can we group them together BOGO style.

Technically, you're right. Politically, it won't happen before 2020 election. It won't, but it should - I hope the distinction I'm making is clear. Pence might actually pardon Trump, but regardless he won't stand a chance in the 2020 election, and that's only if Trump is outed.

[Skroe]

Let me float an idea. Just curious people's thought.

What if instead of passing Articles of Impeachment, Democrats turn their evidence into an argument for a Censure Resolution. They say "we know Republicans won't vote to remove under any circumstance, so let's see if they vote to endorse this behavior or not in a symbolic manner".

And what if they basically ambush Republicans with this at the 11th hour. After expecting an impeachment trial where the outcome is a foregone conclusion because of partisanship, what if they drop a bomb on Republicans by taking that off the table, but putting them unexpectedly in a situation where the could vote against trump but not remove him.

What do you think?

The big flaw I see is that Mitch McConnell would not be compelled to take a Censure resolution up. So maybe more broadly, what do you think of Censure which could possibly pass versus removal which won't.