Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[PACOX]

wait, is it confirmed they're making kotor movies?

also, yes, geometric rooms and star maps are 100% rakatan. unless they plan to change it to a different race they made up their selves. that'd be a real shame, the rakata look cool imo.

Rakata Prime was canonized in TFA. Mentioned again in Solo and the Resistance cartoon according to the Wiki.

[Nefastus]

You don't get to have an opinion regarding that. This just means you're willfully wrong.

What is "canon" to a particular IP is determined by the owner of the IP. Not the fans. The fans don't get any say at all in what is or is not canon.

Actually I do. With my money I decide whats canon and whats not, what I consume and what I don't. Post Lucas to me is all non canon. I ignore all disney crap so whatever happens means little to me. Its all fantasy so its not like I am obligated to accept anything. Perfectly possible to decide what to consider and what to ignore. So the mickey mouse star wars is fanfic to me.

[Super Kami Dende]

Like others said, Luke does his absolute best to try and kill Vader twice in the final battle, almost losing himself to his anger. The Emperor taunts him about it, each time. You really can't watch that final battle and miss this stuff.



There's Mr. Light Side smashing his saber at his injured father on the floor before him, trying his absolute damndest to kill his dad, in a rage. There's no control, no technique, he's just smashing away like his saber's a paper and his dad's the biggest spider he's ever seen.

It would really help if people watched the damn movies and payed attention.

Yet this very event would show him even someone as twisted as Vader was "redeemable" after previously in the same movie he had made multiple attempts to sway Vader away from the Emperor, which makes him giving up on Kylo so stupid, which makes your point kind of moot.

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I agree. The Force Awakens was an ok movie aside from Rey having the saber fly into her hands it should've flew into the hands of Luke OR to make it even more shocking? It flies into the hand of FINN and gives the message: "You knock me down, I'll get right back up to save the day." like an actual Jedi.

You know, I was always wishing that did happen. Finn I actually enjoyed in TFA, TLJ made his character a fucking joke.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yet this very event would show him even someone as twisted as Vader was "redeemable" after previously in the same movie he had made multiple attempts to sway Vader away from the Emperor, which makes him giving up on Kylo so stupid, which makes your point kind of moot.

Luke never gave up on kylo all of his lines about what happens are about how he failed kylo it’s only Rey who says it’s kylo’s fault. Luke thinks he can’t redeem kylo because of what he did even near the end when talking to leia when she says he’s gone he disagrees.

Luke always frames it as his fault he gives up on him self after such a heavy lapse But not once does he blame kylo.

[OrcsRLame]

You don't get to have an opinion regarding that. This just means you're willfully wrong.

What is "canon" to a particular IP is determined by the owner of the IP. Not the fans. The fans don't get any say at all in what is or is not canon.

This argument has never made any sense to me. It's effectively rule by the strong, or in this case rule by the rich.

Disney may have legal ownership of Star Wars, but they didn't create it. A legal document is not enough to buy legitimacy in my eyes.

Here's a good example. Say zombie Hitler rises from the dirt tomorrow and uses magic powers to subjugate the world. Zombie Hitler then makes new laws after he takes over the world saying that all intellectual property belongs to him. Hitler then goes and makes more Star Wars movies. Are you then gonna sit there and argue that Star Wars fans that don't consider the Hitler films to be legitimate are just willfully wrong?

There's a distinction to make between legal ownership and philosophical ownership. Lucas may not legally own Star Wars, but you can never change the fact that he made it. All the rest of us are doing, from Disney to game makers to people that write shitty fan fiction, are just playing with his legos.

I will never acknowledge that the Disney films have the same level of legitimacy as the Lucas films. I don't give a fuck how much money they have. I for one refuse to suck corporate cock.

[Endus]

This argument has never made any sense to me. It's effectively rule by the strong, or in this case rule by the rich.

Disney may have legal ownership of Star Wars, but they didn't create it. A legal document is not enough to buy legitimacy in my eyes.

It's theirs. They decide what's canon to the universe, and what isn't.

As a fan, you can not like their decisions, and still enjoy non-canon material all you like. You don't get to argue that your preferences are somehow setting the canon for everyone else.

That's what the term means; official sanction of material as genuine/legitimate/etc.

Here's a good example. Say zombie Hitler rises from the dirt tomorrow and uses magic powers to subjugate the world. Zombie Hitler then makes new laws after he takes over the world saying that all intellectual property belongs to him. Hitler then goes and makes more Star Wars movies. Are you then gonna sit there and argue that Star Wars fans that don't consider the Hitler films to be legitimate are just willfully wrong?

This is a ridiculous example that doesn't bear responding to. You're trying to make it emotional, by making the situation awful, rather than sticking to the specifics that are relevant.

Most of us wouldn't approve of anything Zombie Hitler the Subjugator wanted to do. Because he's a zombie, he's Hitler, and he subjugated us all. We'd think twice about it if he announced that every 2nd Thursday was now Puppy Day, and everyone got to play with puppies. We'd assume there's a dark secret behind that. Because Zombie Hitler the Subjugator.

There's a distinction to make between legal ownership and philosophical ownership. Lucas may not legally own Star Wars, but you can never change the fact that he made it. All the rest of us are doing, from Disney to game makers to people that write shitty fan fiction, are just playing with his legos.

And this is not how the world works.

Star Wars isn't Lucas' any more. Lucas is also a really poor writer; he needs constant, strong editing and someone who'll make him stop futzing with things. That's why the OT worked so well, Marcia Lucas, George's wife, was helping direct and edit. It's why the prequels were so much worse; everyone treated Lucas with the blind worship you're expressing, and he isn't worthy of it.

The OT wasn't down to George Lucas as a sole auteur, in the first place.

I will never acknowledge that the Disney films have the same level of legitimacy as the Lucas films. I don't give a fuck how much money they have. I for one refuse to suck corporate cock.

This has absolutely nothing to do with corporate anything.

And Star Wars was always a corporate beast. It is not, and never was, an indie film.

[TheFirstOnes]

This is what I say about Rey...

"The Force is strong with you, child...

But you are NOT a Jedi yet."

[Kokolums]

It's theirs. They decide what's canon to the universe, and what isn't.

As a fan, you can not like their decisions, and still enjoy non-canon material all you like. You don't get to argue that your preferences are somehow setting the canon for everyone else.

Customers kinda do decide what's not canon with their wallets. As we've seen with the Terminator franchise, fan apathy leads to reboots and jumpbacks. "Oh the last 3 films are no longer canon and we're trying this now".

[Endus]

Customers kinda do decide what's not canon with their wallets. As we've seen with the Terminator franchise, fan apathy leads to reboots and jumpbacks. "Oh the last 3 films are no longer canon and we're trying this now".

That's customers deciding if they like the property. They don't set canon.

Nobody's saying you have to like the films.

[derpkitteh]

Rakata Prime was canonized in TFA. Mentioned again in Solo and the Resistance cartoon according to the Wiki.

huh, pretty sweet.

that dagger she's holding really does scream rakata to me. it'd be cool if it would wind up being a key that unleashes a mind-trapped rakata that fucks everyone up.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Customers kinda do decide what's not canon with their wallets. As we've seen with the Terminator franchise, fan apathy leads to reboots and jumpbacks. "Oh the last 3 films are no longer canon and we're trying this now".

This really isn’t how it works or what happened with terminator. Genesis made t2 none canon by bending the timeline and every one agrees that t2 was the hight of the series. What darkfate did was make
T2 canon again and make the victory there actually do something unlike all the other movies.

[Ragedaug]

This keeps getting brought up because nearly every single complaint about Rey applies equally to prior main characters in the films, and yet there wasn't any complaint about this stuff before.

So we look at what's changed, and there's really one obvious difference, and that's why it keeps coming up.

She has unwarranted talent with the Force, seemingly by birth? So did Anakin.
She has strength seemingly gifted straight by the Force itself? Ditto Anakin.
She's a fairly boring character, without much nuance? So was Luke.
She never fails? This one's just obviously untrue, and thus ignored.
She has combat skills? Luke did too, and Luke didn't have any training or experience. Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda taught lightsaber combat, that we see. Rey, on the other hand, was fighting on a fairly regular basis just to survive. Which we are shown.

First let me say, I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue, though I would argue her character is poorly developed. I believe there are plausible reasons outside the movies that explain her abilities and don't conflict with the movie. I see those people who call her a Mary Sue and assume they are unimaginative and they believe what they do because they haven't been shown it in the movie. You, on the other hand, seem to believe that those who disagree with you do so because they are just bad people. So I think that's a problem, and one which typically renders any further dialog on the topic extremely difficult.

Too many of the people who dislike Rey like other strong female leads from other movies. That's all it takes to debunk that theory that the problem is she's a woman, so you need more to provide evidence that they are bad people before you castigate them.

As far as your list of justifications, the first two provide Anakin as precedence. 1st, Anakin's Y chromosome was a product of the Force itself, which was Lucas' lazy way of explaining his being OP. 2nd, many many people still have a problem with Anakin's overpoweredness regardless that his pop was the Force. You have to bury your head in the sand to not realize people have been complaining about Anakin for those same reasons for the past 20 years. (and he's not a woman)

Boring character. Definitely subjective. I would argue that they say she's more boring because she doesn't fail versus lacking nuance.

She doesn't fail. That's obviously true, which is why I suspect you wanted to ignore it instead of providing things she fails at.

Luke got his butt kicked when he was fighting up until the 3rd movie. He got his butt kicked in the first movie, at least twice, Ben had to bail him out. And Vader soundly man-handled him in the 2nd movie. The only thing we see with Rey is getting "force captured" or something. Whatever Kylo did to freeze her up. But even then, he didn't beat her. He couldn't beat her when he was interrogating her and she freed herself. That's why Luke seems less boring than Rey. When we meet Luke, he fights and loses, and was whining the whole time, and then we got to see his character evolve throughout the course of three movies. I don't think we'll see Rey evolve at all. She just is what she already is. That's why people say she's boring.

[Frogguh]

Honestly, Endus has been throwing around the, "You're all just sexist!!" line for ages now in this - and the previous episodes - thread. There's no point even trying to explain it, he's just going to keep calling everyone sexist and pretending it's a good argument.

Yep. If it was Ray instead of Rey, it would still be a poorly written character.

[Elim Garak]

Actually I do. With my money I decide whats canon and whats not

Nope, you only decide "what I consume and what I don't.", your money doesn't decide what is or isn't canon.

This is what I say about Rey...

"The Force is strong with you, child...

But you are NOT a Jedi yet."

Jedi is just a word. It means that a particular force user belongs to a specific religious institution.

[Asphyx22]

Question:
How mAny of you hAve preordered your tickets for Wednesday/Thursday night?

Got my seat along with my fam right when they were available. We were lucky we were all in one place when it happened because they filled up not 5 minutes after tickets went on sale.

[Endus]

First let me say, I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue, though I would argue her character is poorly developed. I believe there are plausible reasons outside the movies that explain her abilities and don't conflict with the movie. I see those people who call her a Mary Sue and assume they are unimaginative and they believe what they do because they haven't been shown it in the movie. You, on the other hand, seem to believe that those who disagree with you do so because they are just bad people. So I think that's a problem, and one which typically renders any further dialog on the topic extremely difficult.

I'm not saying they're "bad people".

I'm saying they're making stuff up in their own heads, and then blaming the films for what they've imagined, rather than what the films actually contain. Maybe they don't realize that's what they're doing, but they are.

Part of the problem is that this point gets made, and rather than provide a valid justification, they just get angry that they appear to be upset because Rey's a girl. I've been asking them to explain the outrage, and continually failing to get a reasonable response.

Too many of the people who dislike Rey like other strong female leads from other movies. That's all it takes to debunk that theory that the problem is she's a woman, so you need more to provide evidence that they are bad people before you castigate them.

This can get fairly nuanced, but there's often a big difference between a strong female lead in a film that was always female-led or a new property, like Sigourney Weaver's Ripley in Alien/Aliens, and between a largely male-centric film series like Star Wars having the new lead be a girl.

And before you raise questions about that "male-led" point, let's consider the OT briefly. Can you point to three female characters who are named in that film? That's it. They are given a name, in the film (not in the credits, in actual dialogue). I'm not going to bring up the Beschel test or anything, just being given an actual name.

Maybe this is all about something other than her gender. Maybe it's irrational hatred for Disney. Maybe something else. I'm open to an explanation. I keep not getting one.

As far as your list of justifications, the first two provide Anakin as precedence. 1st, Anakin's Y chromosome was a product of the Force itself, which was Lucas' lazy way of explaining his being OP. 2nd, many many people still have a problem with Anakin's overpoweredness regardless that his pop was the Force. You have to bury your head in the sand to not realize people have been complaining about Anakin for those same reasons for the past 20 years. (and he's not a woman)

Not with nearly the same venom. The complaints in the prequels were more that midichlorians suck, that Hayden Christiansen was meh, and that his fall as a character was poorly plotted and nonsensical. That he's immaculately conceived was seen as silly, but largely accepted; no one was calling him a "Gary Stu".

Boring character. Definitely subjective. I would argue that they say she's more boring because she doesn't fail versus lacking nuance.

I agree that Rey is super bland.

I do not see the argument for "doesn't fail". She fails multiple times. The goalposts always get moved to "but she gets over that failure and it works out!", and by that metric, Luke was a "Gary Stu". Which I'd disagree with, for the record.

She doesn't fail. That's obviously true, which is why I suspect you wanted to ignore it instead of providing things she fails at.

Her first encounter with Kylo, he paralyzes her with the Force, reads her mind despite her resistance, he knocks her out, and takes her prisoner. Multiple cascading failures.
When she's on Han's new ship, in the ducts, she opens the wrong door first and makes everything way more dangerous.
When Luke is training her, and he's pointing out the Dark Side, she reaches right for it without any hesitation. This is a failure of character, and Luke says as much right out loud.
When she's in the chamber with Snoke, she's completely helpless and can't fight back. She's failing that entire scene, until Kylo kills Snoke and saves her.

Just off the top of my head. This stuff should be obvious, but people always have excuses for why these failures "don't count". That's not how these things get evaluated.

[Endus]

This is why no one takes you seriously.

You write these long, drawn out posts both denying reality ("No one called out Anakin in the prequels, guys! Honest!") while also just ignoring everyone elses' points in favor of throwing "-isms" at them.

There was a whole lot more to the post you've trimmed down where I specifically addressed Ragedaug's points. And I threw no "-isms" at all in this thread. Seems like you're holding a grudge rather than addressing my actual post.

[TheFirstOnes]

Nope, you only decide "what I consume and what I don't.", your money doesn't decide what is or isn't canon.


Jedi is just a word. It means that a particular force user belongs to a specific religious institution.

Someone hasn't watched EP 5 yet. Smh Didn't even get the reference.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Someone hasn't watched EP 5 yet. Smh Didn't even get the reference.

To be fair with the context of the prequels the OT shit all over what a Jedi is as Luke pretty much just gets trained to be a weapon instead of having the whole Jedi order experience.

[TheFirstOnes]

To be fair with the context of the prequels the OT shit all over what a Jedi is as Luke pretty much just gets trained to be a weapon instead of having the whole Jedi order experience.

Tbf here, there was also no Jedi order at the time. Note that Luke trained only for a couple months. 2-3 weeks with Yoda, and 1-2 months all on his own. And even then, though his Jedi skills were "complete", he was still no match for guys like Vader at full power (Note that Vader only lost due to him fighting his son, as well as the fact that Luke was enraged at the time).

Why do I say that Vader wasn't at Full Power? Uhm, well, play Fallen Order. Ehehe...