Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[Kathranis]

Maybe it's just me, but the sudden deluge of teasers and TV spots is feeling kind of desperate. They're giving away so much that it feels like they don't have confidence in the movie. I especially still can't believe that they've gone so far in revealing Palpatine's return when, surely, it would play better if the audience didn't know it was coming.

[Endus]

It’s not lore breaking as some would say but it’s still something I’d say is a bit off compared to the other stuff we’ve seen her do and I’d be lying if I said I was happy with it even with the explanation.

Mabye if she did more then just the basics past that I’d feel better about it like dark side users tend to do but having her do something advanced and then default to a basic stuff rubs me the wrong way.

Honestly, I don't think we've even seen any indication that the Mind Trick is a particularly advanced or difficult ability. Obi-wan and Qui-gonn certainly toss it off without much of a thought. If someone has a still-canon source, I'd be open to that, but so far this feels like an assumption that doesn't actually have much basis in canon.

[Nefarious Tea]

Honestly, I don't think we've even seen any indication that the Mind Trick is a particularly advanced or difficult ability. Obi-wan and Qui-gonn certainly toss it off without much of a thought. If someone has a still-canon source, I'd be open to that, but so far this feels like an assumption that doesn't actually have much basis in canon.

The issue is less that it’s hard, but the fact that she did it without training at all, without knowing basically anything of the Force at all.

[Endus]

The issue is less that it’s hard, but the fact that she did it without training at all, without knowing basically anything of the Force at all.

To compare to martial arts for a sec, it's a question of complexity.

If the Mind Trick is something like a judo hip throw, it's fairly simple, even if it's more complex than a punch or shove (Force Pull/Push, in this analogy). It's not some crazy spinny move that takes a black belt months of training to nail down.

And if you've got someone who's crazy strong, even if their technique is a bit off, they'll muscle you over their hip and throw you down.

That's my issue; we don't know that the Mind Trick is particularly difficult to learn or use, nor do we know that Rey's strength can't make up the shortfall in her training; she may be a lot more forceful than subtle, but it might still get the job done.

I agree that the scene doesn't have great explanation, I just think a lot of the complaints about it are based on assumptions that we don't actually know are canonically true.

[Varodoc]

Maybe it's just me, but the sudden deluge of teasers and TV spots is feeling kind of desperate. They're giving away so much that it feels like they don't have confidence in the movie. I especially still can't believe that they've gone so far in revealing Palpatine's return when, surely, it would play better if the audience didn't know it was coming.

They do it to hype people and it seems to be working. A lot of people who didn't care about the movie are interested now that they heard Palpatine is back.

[Nefarious Tea]

@Endus that’s a good point, and not one I’d considered: who cares if you can’t execute a picture perfect throw if you have there strength to just... pick somebody up?

Also I suppose it needs to be considered as well that FO troopers are probably unusually susceptible to mind tricks, because they spent their entire lives being brainwashed with propaganda.

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They do it to hype people and it seems to be working. A lot of people who didn't care about the movie are interested now that they heard Palpatine is back.

Yeah but Sheev “reactor shaft diver champ 1983” Palpatine was supposed to be dead. a twist like that should have been kept under wraps at a level not unlike Vader being Luke’s father. The only people that knew before they shot that scene were Lucas and Kasdan because they wrote it, and James Earl Jones to deliver it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Honestly, I don't think we've even seen any indication that the Mind Trick is a particularly advanced or difficult ability. Obi-wan and Qui-gonn certainly toss it off without much of a thought. If someone has a still-canon source, I'd be open to that, but so far this feels like an assumption that doesn't actually have much basis in canon.

It might not be hard to do if you know how but it has to be a rather involved thing as you can destroy a mind by doing a mind trick, if Rey brute forced it she should have probably left the guard drooling in a corner.

Canon source for mind breakage.

[Zaktar]

It might not be hard to do if you know how but it has to be a rather involved thing as you can destroy a mind by doing a mind trick, if Rey brute forced it she should have probably left the guard drooling in a corner.

Canon source for mind breakage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xUH...&persist_app=1

They're specifically talking about breaking a strong mind though? Not brute forcing a weak one. Bending a steel bar using a lot of force permanently wrecks the bar, bending a reed using a lot of force may still let the reed pop back in place.

[Reydan]

And with the mind trick, for the sake of argument, we have the canon explanation of the link between her and Kylo that Snoke explicitly created; his breaching of her mind let her breach his, and she learned enough to be able to pull off a mind trick after he left her there. Is that a satisfying explanation? Probably not. But it is an explanation. And it's no sillier than a lot of stuff from past films.

The rest of what we see Rey do is just brute force with the Force, and we know she's stupidly strong there. Stronger than Anakin was, and he was supposed to be ridiculous.

Source please? Because I call bullshiet.

[eschatological]

Yeah but Sheev “reactor shaft diver champ 1983” Palpatine was supposed to be dead. a twist like that should have been kept under wraps at a level not unlike Vader being Luke’s father. The only people that knew before they shot that scene were Lucas and Kasdan because they wrote it, and James Earl Jones to deliver it.

I do agree that Palpatine's presence in this movie should have been a surprise. That's a bit of a marketing flub, imo. But if he's a big enough part of the movie, it would be real hard to hide that in marketing material.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They're specifically talking about breaking a strong mind though? Not brute forcing a weak one. Bending a steel bar using a lot of force permanently wrecks the bar, bending a reed using a lot of force may still let the reed pop back in place.

I would assume abunch of masters who know what they are doing and some one who has no idea what they are doing but is trying to force it would have similar effects. In both cases they are trying to use brute force to break in even though the skilled users are going for a harder target.

Though this doesn’t really apply to Rey as her using a mind trick is explained as she learned it from the link to kylo. I’m just assuming if she didn’t learn it and tried to use force it would likely have ended badly for the guard.

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Source please? Because I call bullshiet.

Luke says it when he’s only felt strength like hers in kylo and snoke then confirms it when he says Rey and kylo are a match which we see if the saber pull contest.

[Reydan]

I would assume abunch of masters who know what they are doing and some one who has no idea what they are doing but is trying to force it would have similar effects. In both cases they are trying to use brute force to break in even though the skilled users are going for a harder target.

Though this doesn’t really apply to Rey as her using a mind trick is explained as she learned it from the link to kylo. I’m just assuming if she didn’t learn it and tried to use force it would likely have ended badly for the guard.

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Luke says it when he’s only felt strength like hers in kylo and snoke then confirms it when he says Rey and kylo are a match which we see if the saber pull contest.

That really doesn't tell anything just that she matches the power of Kylo. Vader/Anakin is alot stronger in the force and combat skills than both Kylo and Rey, I can't seem how you think otherwise.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That really doesn't tell anything just that she matches the power of Kylo. Vader/Anakin is alot stronger in the force and combat skills than both Kylo and Rey, I can't seem how you think otherwise.

Luke fought Vader and met both palp and yoda why do you think he wouldn’t know how strong they are?

Vader beats them both out on every level of skill but in raw strength they pass him.

[Shadowferal]

Various articles here.
None of them seem reassuring.

[StillMcfuu]

Both Luke and anakin were using the force if before there training anakin whole pod racing Luke while blowing up the Death Star/in the yeti cave. While Rey might be doing more active force ability’s there is still a precent in both the new and old canon for this kind of thing with children with no training doing more advanced things then Rey.

While the two or so weeks she’s has is off the norm it’s not as far off as some other force users and every thing she has done outside of the mind trick has been basic force stuff.

Luke and Anakin were definitely not "using the force" prior to their training.

Anakin's pod racing reflexes were natural to him, he didn't understand why others couldn't do what he did. It was simply a natural part of life, he couldn't manipulate or change anything that was "force" related. Also Luke did have a small amount of Jedi training, but what he did with the Death Star was again very akin to Anakin's pod racing. It was instinctual, he didn't force the torpedos down the exhaust vent with the force, he turned off the targeting computer and eyed the shot to get the torpedoes in place to pick up the heat from the exhaust vent. The Yeti cave on Hoth was also after small amounts of force training, Luke was aware of what was possible, but didn't practice it much.

This isn't to say that I don't agree that there isn't precedence for Rey's abilities in TFA, it's just what you stated isn't accurate. Disney retconned how the force worked, stating the less beings that were accessing the force made the force more powerful within them. And that explanation is fine honestly, granted it breaks down a bit when we look back at Ep 1-6 but it isn't world ending. During TFA we see Kylo use pretty powerful raw force powers, even though it was stated continuously he wasn't completely trained. It also made sense that even though he had a lightsaber, he was essentially just a kid swinging around a wrapping paper tube in terms of skill. As it goes for Rey, you could go multiple different directions on why her ability makes sense. She has seen Kylo do it, Kylo not being very good at what he was doing essentially taught her how to resist her mind being twisted. But easier than that, they were both being manipulated by Snoke, it's possible that outside of resisting Kylo (possibly for non force users), her ability to mind control the guard could have just been Snoke.

[Nefarious Tea]

I do agree that Palpatine's presence in this movie should have been a surprise. That's a bit of a marketing flub, imo. But if he's a big enough part of the movie, it would be real hard to hide that in marketing material.

If they can hide literally everything of plot relevance from Frozen 2 promotional materials, they could have done the same for Ep. ix

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Luke and Anakin were definitely not "using the force" prior to their training.

Anakin's pod racing reflexes were natural to him, he didn't understand why others couldn't do what he did. It was simply a natural part of life, he couldn't manipulate or change anything that was "force" related. Also Luke did have a small amount of Jedi training, but what he did with the Death Star was again very akin to Anakin's pod racing. It was instinctual, he didn't force the torpedos down the exhaust vent with the force, he turned off the targeting computer and eyed the shot to get the torpedoes in place to pick up the heat from the exhaust vent. The Yeti cave on Hoth was also after small amounts of force training, Luke was aware of what was possible, but didn't practice it much.

This isn't to say that I don't agree that there isn't precedence for Rey's abilities in TFA, it's just what you stated isn't accurate. Disney retconned how the force worked, stating the less beings that were accessing the force made the force more powerful within them. And that explanation is fine honestly, granted it breaks down a bit when we look back at Ep 1-6 but it isn't world ending. During TFA we see Kylo use pretty powerful raw force powers, even though it was stated continuously he wasn't completely trained. It also made sense that even though he had a lightsaber, he was essentially just a kid swinging around a wrapping paper tube in terms of skill. As it goes for Rey, you could go multiple different directions on why her ability makes sense. She has seen Kylo do it, Kylo not being very good at what he was doing essentially taught her how to resist her mind being twisted. But easier than that, they were both being manipulated by Snoke, it's possible that outside of resisting Kylo (possibly for non force users), her ability to mind control the guard could have just been Snoke.

Ah my wording was poor, anakin and Luke are both using the force for heightened reflexes but they weren’t actively manipulating it like say a force pull or lift.

Also where was it said that the less force users there are the stronger people are? Because Disney canon has a metric ton of force users just not Jedi or sith.

[TheFirstOnes]

Luke fought Vader and met both palp and yoda why do you think he wouldn’t know how strong they are?

Vader beats them both out on every level of skill but in raw strength they pass him.

"But in raw strength, they pass him"

Ahahahahaha...AHHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

AHHHHHAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! This man literally pushed waves of an ocean with his force powers during Fallen Order. Pretty sure Kylo and Rey are NO match for him.

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Luke and Anakin were definitely not "using the force" prior to their training.

Anakin's pod racing reflexes were natural to him, he didn't understand why others couldn't do what he did. It was simply a natural part of life, he couldn't manipulate or change anything that was "force" related. Also Luke did have a small amount of Jedi training, but what he did with the Death Star was again very akin to Anakin's pod racing. It was instinctual, he didn't force the torpedos down the exhaust vent with the force, he turned off the targeting computer and eyed the shot to get the torpedoes in place to pick up the heat from the exhaust vent. The Yeti cave on Hoth was also after small amounts of force training, Luke was aware of what was possible, but didn't practice it much.

This isn't to say that I don't agree that there isn't precedence for Rey's abilities in TFA, it's just what you stated isn't accurate. Disney retconned how the force worked, stating the less beings that were accessing the force made the force more powerful within them. And that explanation is fine honestly, granted it breaks down a bit when we look back at Ep 1-6 but it isn't world ending. During TFA we see Kylo use pretty powerful raw force powers, even though it was stated continuously he wasn't completely trained. It also made sense that even though he had a lightsaber, he was essentially just a kid swinging around a wrapping paper tube in terms of skill. As it goes for Rey, you could go multiple different directions on why her ability makes sense. She has seen Kylo do it, Kylo not being very good at what he was doing essentially taught her how to resist her mind being twisted. But easier than that, they were both being manipulated by Snoke, it's possible that outside of resisting Kylo (possibly for non force users), her ability to mind control the guard could have just been Snoke.

Seeing someone do it and then doing it back isn't good writing. In fact, that's straight up comedic writing and works like something from DB. No joke. It's like when Goku first did the Kamehameha right after Roshi did it, or when Broly started copying Goku's moves just after seeing him do so. This doesn't really work for Star Wars, as it's not Dragon Ball.

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Rey and Kylo have no Saiyan Genes that somehow make them much more "interconnected" with the Force.

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Are you actually trying to argue that members of the Empire didn't know that the "government" they worked for blew up an entire planet just as a "show of force" to quell a rebellion?

Are you actually arguing that word wouldn't get around that Stormtroopers were forced to slaughter innocent civilians? People talk.

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

This. 10000 percent.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

"But in raw strength, they pass him"

Ahahahahaha...AHHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

AHHHHHAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! This man literally pushed waves of an ocean with his force powers during Fallen Order. Pretty sure Kylo and Rey are NO match for him.

And in the movies Vader gets beat up by Luke with no show at all, the movies never show us raw power.

Luke’s able to control black holes (Eu) and shake whole star destroys (canon) but in the movies the most he does is lift an xwing.

Rey and kylo are above both of them but just like either of them we don’t get to see that in the movies as the movies don’t show off and never have.

[TheFirstOnes]

Again the emperor was brought back to life in the 1990’s when Starwars was still under Lucas, it has zero to do with Disney.

You mean in the books that aren't canon? Yeah...

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And in the movies Vader gets beat up by Luke with no show at all, the movies never show us raw power.

Luke’s able to control black holes (Eu) and shake whole star destroys (canon) but in the movies the most he does is lift an xwing.

Rey and kylo are above both of them but just like either of them we don’t get to see that in the movies as the movies don’t show off and never have.

"Vader got beat by Luke" I hate this argument, cause you could clearly see that Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke. Like, at all. Otherwise, the fight would be over.

"Luke’s able to control black holes (Eu) and shake whole star destroys (canon) but in the movies the most he does is lift an xwing." This was during the beginning of his training, and we've seen nothing else afterwards in the films of his feats other than him defeating Vader. Luke in the canon (As well as Legends) is a badass that can destroy Star Destroyers, and quite possibly break even stars and planets. Him controlling black holes in the Legends books are, while impressive, not the best thing he's done. Both Canon, and Legends, he's still far beyond Rey and Kylo, even in Raw Force power alone. Rey and Kylo, while I don't doubt they're badass, aren't supported enough to last in a proper fight against Vader nor Luke.

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"Rey and kylo are above both of them but just like either of them we don’t get to see that in the movies as the movies don’t show off and never have." Most of their feats are shown in the films though. So, what you're saying is either contradicted by this, or was just wrong to begin with.