Are We Getting Back Tier Sets in Shadowlands?

[Toby451]

Hopefully tier sets as visual only. The vast majority of tier set bonuses are about as interesting as benthic gear anyways. If they are ever brought back, hopefully the bonuses are much stronger and actually interesting to use.

[Maquegyver]

Its rich that blizz eliminated tier sets with the guise of being a capacity issue and an issue that people were forced into certain items... We are now in a raid where my character has 3 forced azerite slots, a neck I have used all xpac and 4 benthic pieces... The absolute balls on these cons.

[Gaidax]

Azerite armor is the better system really, but the lack of class specific transmog options is bad.

I'd love tier sets that let you choose bonuses you want like Azerite, but also give you class unique armor visuals.

[Mozu]

That's not always good or desired. I like Demon Hunter, I despise Momentum. If they re-introduced tier sets, and let's say that tier set made momentum really good, I would lose interest in a hurry.

Sure, I can play something sub-optimal, but I don't want to do that either. I don't like wasting my own, or other people's time by being less effective. I hate when tier sets pigeonhole a specific playstyle, or frontload specific talents and whatnot, it's not engaging to me at all.

The good part about that is, you'll only need to endure it for a single tier--it'll make getting the next set even better. To be fair, I'm not somebody that understands how people reroll based on things like this though. The people that roll a "certain spec" rather than rolling an entire class have always baffled me.

For instance, if I play a mage I don't care if fire, frost, or arcane is best. I will play whichever is best for the tier. Likewise, if momentum is best I will have fun mastering something I previously never used. I have personally talked to people who "only play fire mage" though, and refuse to play anything else. Not trying to put it down, but it's just a fundamental difference from me in how classes are viewed.

Anyway, I'd much prefer that system that enables use of a totally different rotation to mix things up every tier to one that has the same exact mechanics stagnating for 2+ years. The latter is extremely boring.

[kaminaris]

The good part about that is, you'll only need to endure it for a single tier--it'll make getting the next set even better. To be fair, I'm not somebody that understands how people reroll based on things like this though. The people that roll a "certain spec" rather than rolling an entire class have always baffled me.

For instance, if I play a mage I don't care if fire, frost, or arcane is best. I will play whichever is best for the tier. Likewise, if momentum is best I will have fun mastering something I previously never used. I have personally talked to people who "only play fire mage" though, and refuse to play anything else. Not trying to put it down, but it's just a fundamental difference from me in how classes are viewed.

Anyway, I'd much prefer that system that enables use of a totally different rotation to mix things up every tier to one that has the same exact mechanics stagnating for 2+ years. The latter is extremely boring.

Now take a look at previous tier sets but for all classes and read your post again. Vast majority of set bonuses were boring flat dmg buffs.

Also, i completely understand pople playing one spec since specs are So vastly different that they are practically as different classes

[Dizzeeyooo]

Changing playstyle:

DH - None

Not sure how much effort you put into this list (I presume close to zero, so not sure why i'm bothering) but the demon hunter Antorus tier set changed the entire spec that you played

[Augusta138]

I want visual class sets back. I miss the class identities that come with.

I couldn't care less about set bonuses.

I agree on this one,
Certain sets had great set bonuses and others were utter shit during raid tiers.

However the class identity that came with tier sets and class ''fantasy'' names (.....Stalker for hunter) was great.
Currently it is just 4 armor types in 4 recolors which is really lazy design.

Although Shadowlands wont bring much change in that regard since your covenant will give you a set of Xmog gear and by the looks of it, it will just be 4 armor types

[KrayZ33]

Although Shadowlands wont bring much change in that regard since your covenant will give you a set of Xmog gear and by the looks of it, it will just be 4 armor types

Not sure about that, the different cloak transmogs (multiple choices for each covenant) might lead to more Xmog possibilities with other item slots too.

[Kralljin]

so not only frost mages but hunters as well. Especially in legion like half of specs did 4+2 config.

Nope, for most classes, the drop of Ilvl was too significant to carry the 2pc.

I can't really remember how it was in previous expansions prior to legion but I am pretty sure it did happen.

Before Legion, it wasn't even possible wear a 2pc and 4pc at the same time because Tier sets were 5 pieces sets.

Titanforged was changed at least 3 times. Because of complaints.

It wasn't.
The only thing they kept changing was the Ilvl for Mythic raiders.

Its not the only source of TR, count again, cause I did. With nazjatar it is even easier (and practically limitless).

You seriously mean farming Manapearls to then buy Benthic Azerite pieces to scrap?
Yeah, no thanks.

But go on, how many Azerite pieces do you have to scrap in order to buy a specific piece after four weeks, i'm curious.

Quick calculations, tier sets gave you around 10-20% of power (cause blizzard band-aid classes this way).

Set bonuses having a power increase of like 20% was extremely rare.
And then they very often got nerfed with the next tier.

Using subpar traits 3-3.5K is a 0.5-1K difference in dps = 1.25-2.5%

Can you please stop lying?

Check out bloodmallet, look at Azerite trait balance and scroll down for each class.
Some of them have decent traits are like a 4k increase, whereas others sit around 1-2k.
So bonus just gets cut at least cut in half.

There are Azerites pieces out there at aren't even half as good as their BiS counterpart.

Tier sets were nowhere near azerite gear when it comes to changing playstyle. Vast majority of tier sets were just flat damage upgrades.

Just like most Azerite bonuses.

That was the problem of tier sets, not azerite gear. One time I got awesome set bonus, next time it completely sucked.

If i didn't like a tier set, i could at least hope that the next tier will be better.
Azerite gives you the middle finger for the rest of the expansion.

Well except, tier sets rarely changed your playstyle. Vast majority of tier sets were just flat damage upgrades.

They did, sometimes another talent better due to one, so you used that, which is okay.

Blizzard already got better at tuning.

By that you mean they stopped for most specs to even bother to balance traits.

That is not a flexibility. That is just convenience.
Flexibility is adapting to situation. Having more options.

That's your definition of it.
Not mine, not a general one.

Don't like it? Fuck off

Don't like your Azerite traits?
Fuck off (for the rest of the expansion)

Point is simple, people who complain about azerite gear have goldfish memory and/or don't understand problems of tier sets.

Yeah and people that hog over Azerite need to realize that it would take Blizzard multiple expansions to get it into a place where it may actually be decent.
Let alone how limited the design is because it's spread over three pieces and thus needs to be constantly checked that any retarded rotations aren't possible.

It's so much easier to design a good set bonus than a good Azerite trait that actually favors a new build, doesn't make other traits unviable and changes the playstyle.

It just means you didn't learn that gear has no meaning in this game.

No, i just enjoyed the moment, it's pretty simple.
Because if you think about the game as a whole, almost anything doesn't have any meaning.

And Tier sets simply were better for me to enjoy the moment, Azerite isn't.

And i'm going to take @Beefkow advice and stop replying to you as this discussion is clearly going nowhere.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Found the blizzard employee.

Than debate me, I also don't work for blizzard and I bash them regularly.

[Halyon]

The good part about that is, you'll only need to endure it for a single tier--it'll make getting the next set even better. To be fair, I'm not somebody that understands how people reroll based on things like this though. The people that roll a "certain spec" rather than rolling an entire class have always baffled me.

For instance, if I play a mage I don't care if fire, frost, or arcane is best. I will play whichever is best for the tier. Likewise, if momentum is best I will have fun mastering something I previously never used. I have personally talked to people who "only play fire mage" though, and refuse to play anything else. Not trying to put it down, but it's just a fundamental difference from me in how classes are viewed.

Anyway, I'd much prefer that system that enables use of a totally different rotation to mix things up every tier to one that has the same exact mechanics stagnating for 2+ years. The latter is extremely boring.

Yeah, Legion said otherwise, which for BM was basically Nighthold gear the entire expansion because the bonuses were so good that going for higher and higher titanforge was the better option. Nvm that goddamned hourglass lol.

If specs and build paths are about equal, like 3% dps difference or something, that's fine for me, since I won't likelt be doing mythic raiding, but if a specific talent setup is vastly superior to everything else in the spec, and it feels godawful (to me) to play, I won't. WoW is a game I play to relax and enjoy, not feel like it's a chore/job.

Good for you that you're more flexible/adaptable. Not everyone likes or sees the positive in being pigeonholed.

[kaminaris]

Not sure how much effort you put into this list (I presume close to zero, so not sure why i'm bothering) but the demon hunter Antorus tier set changed the entire spec that you played

I dont think You understand what changing rotation means. Cause it certainly doesnt mean making one talent more viable. That playstyle was always there

[Donald Hellscream]

I wouldn't mind class thematic raid sets being back, but I don't know that I'd necessarily want the set bonuses back, it did feel quite restrictive imo.

It sucked hard when your 4p bonus was so powerful that you felt fucking useless next someone of same skill/gear level but with the bonus you had yet to optain.
the only way to alleviate that would be to make the bonuses flat stuff like do 5% more damage when you have the full set or the likes rather than actual interesting stuff that has a much greater impact.

[Dizzeeyooo]

I dont think You understand what changing rotation means. Cause it certainly doesnt mean making one talent more viable. That playstyle was always there

Did you press eyebeam on st before/after those set bonuses?
Did you press blade dance on st before/after those set bonuses?

Get back to me when you understand what "changing rotation" actually means, thanks

[Mozu]

Now take a look at previous tier sets but for all classes and read your post again. Vast majority of set bonuses were boring flat dmg buffs.

Also, i completely understand pople playing one spec since specs are So vastly different that they are practically as different classes

Yeah, the set bonuses that didn't alter gameplay were bad.

And we just disagree fundamentally on what classes represent.

[kaminaris]

Did you press eyebeam on st before/after those set bonuses?
Did you press blade dance on st before/after those set bonuses?

Get back to me when you understand what "changing rotation" actually means, thanks

You just destroyed yourself. Because your entire rotation is not just AoE or just ST, it's both. You know what means changing rotation?
1. Using ability that wasn't used before - example Rogue with Deadshot/Ace up your sleeve
2. Keeping track of some buff that comes with trait.
3. Not using certain spell because of trait

DH T21 did not change rotation, it just moved ability from "use only with AOE" to "use at all times".
You were familiar with that rotation already. - that is the key part. You did not have to learn anything new.

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Yeah, the set bonuses that didn't alter gameplay were bad.

And we just disagree fundamentally on what classes represent.

So, the vast majority?

[Lurker1]

I really hope not.

[Alkhan]

I hope just for the sake of not having to come up with 1 set for classes with crazy different class fantasies such as rogue/druid/monk. Every bfa leather set looks like something out of Morrowind. Most druid sets look ass but once every 15 sets or so Blizzard comes up with an unbeatable look. Elite Primal Glad or T2/T3 comes to mind.

[Dizzeeyooo]

You just destroyed yourself. Because your entire rotation is not just AoE or just ST, it's both. You know what means changing rotation?

That's your definition of it.
Not mine, not a general one.

He seems to do that a lot

Yeah, Legion said otherwise, which for BM was basically Nighthold gear the entire expansion because the bonuses were so good that going for higher and higher titanforge was the better option. Nvm that goddamned hourglass lol.

Literally nothing to do with set bonuses, literally everything to do with titanforging

[kaminaris]

Nope, for most classes, the drop of Ilvl was too significant to carry the 2pc.

Most or not, this problem existed, we know that blizzard acknowledged it the moment they buffed new set.
We also know because at some point, they disabled old sets.

Before Legion, it wasn't even possible wear a 2pc and 4pc at the same time because Tier sets were 5 pieces sets.

Well, except vanilla which had like 8,
T6 from TBC which had 8,
LFR blackrock foundry that had 6,
HFC LFR set that had 6
Dungeon sets

And funny enough, blizzard disabled old sets when players found a way to utilize super old set in current content.

It wasn't.
The only thing they kept changing was the Ilvl for Mythic raiders.

Yes it was, initially it did not have a cap and was more frequent.

You seriously mean farming Manapearls to then buy Benthic Azerite pieces to scrap?
Yeah, no thanks.
But go on, how many Azerite pieces do you have to scrap in order to buy a specific piece after four weeks, i'm curious.

Farming? No, waiting for emissary and blasting it with alts, buying tokens and sending it to main. Yes such method does exist and is viable way.

According to my calculations to buy one piece of mythic you need to:
Do Mythic raid couple of bosses each week
Do Heroic raid each week
Do emissaries on main that awards azerite gear
Do highest possible M+, i guess 18 should be possible for mythic raider
Farm couple of benthic gear on alts (buy tokens, use them on main, upgrade them ONCE and then scrap it) - you will have around 200 each.

From mythic + alone you will have 96800
2k for each heroic piece, you should get around 1-2 of them during a single run, unless you are really unlucky ( so 4 pieces is 8k)
10k for each mythic piece (0-1) per run, lets say you get 2 during month = 20k
= 124800
Specific piece is 200k

So you are missing 75200, which can be obtained by scrapping 376 tokens, or waiting 1-2 more weeks, or being very lucky on mythic raid, or getting table missions for TR. So yes, it is possible to get 445 in month. While it is rather easy in 6 weeks.

Set bonuses having a power increase of like 20% was extremely rare.
And then they very often got nerfed with the next tier.

I said 10-20%. Yes 20% was rare but 10-15% was common.

Can you please stop lying?

Check out bloodmallet, look at Azerite trait balance and scroll down for each class.
Some of them have decent traits are like a 4k increase, whereas others sit around 1-2k.
So bonus just gets cut at least cut in half.

There are Azerites pieces out there at aren't even half as good as their BiS counterpart.

It is you who is lying and don't know basic math. I know every single chart for every single dps class and difference between first 4-6 traits for most classes is around 1k dps which means it is 2.5% difference between stacking best trait vs stacking other traits.
There are some exceptions like Ingeous Potential which is 5.7k while blightborne infusion/undulating tides is 4k
So difference is 1.7k = 4.25% difference.
And that is assuming you do 40k dps.

People really need to learn math.

Just like most Azerite bonuses.

And this is where you are wrong. Azerite gear gave me so much headache trying to code them into rotations, like no tier sets ever.
Almost every class has 1-3 traits that does alter your rotation as opposed to having 1-3 specs per entire raid tier.

If i didn't like a tier set, i could at least hope that the next tier will be better.
Azerite gives you the middle finger for the rest of the expansion.

No, we had new traits mid expansion while old ones were still around. That is a lie.
Also with tier sets you were almost certain next one will suck - because vast majority was just a flat damage upgrade.

They did, sometimes another talent better due to one, so you used that, which is okay.

No they did not, go ahead and review all previous tier sets, count me how many of them did change playstyle. I did, now your turn.
also making one talent more powerful via set bonus isn't changing playstyle - because it was already there,
you just didn't use it simply because other talent was better.

By that you mean they stopped for most specs to even bother to balance traits.

No, by that I mean in MoP difference between best and worst spec was like 30-50%. While now we are at 15-22% since legion till now.

That's your definition of it.
Not mine, not a general one.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...glish/flexible
able to change or be changed easily according to the situation.
Can you change set bonus? NO
Can you change azerite traits? YES

Don't like your Azerite traits?
Fuck off (for the rest of the expansion)

Don't like azerite traits? Go to reforger and change them.
Don't like set bonus? Fuck off

Yeah and people that hog over Azerite need to realize that it would take Blizzard multiple expansions to get it into a place where it may actually be decent.
Let alone how limited the design is because it's spread over three pieces and thus needs to be constantly checked that any retarded rotations aren't possible.

It's so much easier to design a good set bonus than a good Azerite trait that actually favors a new build, doesn't make other traits unviable and changes the playstyle.

You need to realize, set bonuses weren't ever viable and possible in long run.
That is why we got so many boring and uninspired, bland bonuses.
Azerite is already decent, blizzard could do some numerical balance but even now, it IS decent.

No, i just enjoyed the moment, it's pretty simple.
Because if you think about the game as a whole, almost anything doesn't have any meaning.

And Tier sets simply were better for me to enjoy the moment, Azerite isn't.

And i'm going to take @Beefkow advice and stop replying to you as this discussion is clearly going nowhere.

You never enjoyed it, lets face it, all you do is whine, every single time blizzard changes something.
And the reason for that is very simple, you want your youth back. They can't return that to you.
Even if they continued with tier sets you would simply complain about something else.

I know when something sucks like class balance or legiondaries or pathfinder or bugs within a game.
But when they do something good like azerite, party sync, timewalking, secrects - i don't complain without doing in-depth analysis.

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He seems to do that a lot

Rotation consists of having perfect sequence for every situation, that is the definition, closest of what you can imagine is simcraft APL which has all the checks implemented for each class.

While your incorrect definition means that rotation is either AOE or single target.

Literally nothing to do with set bonuses, literally everything to do with titanforging

Literally has everything to do with set bonuses and nothing to do with titanforging because I kept using base, non forged old tier 2 set. No regular gear could compare, not even titanforged one.

And you misunderstood what he said. He said that the only option to upgrade older 2 set was to go to older raid and have it forge higher.