Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[imahorse]

It used to be ok for people like me, who are avarage players and not cutting edge, to NOT clear all of the bosses on the hardest difficulty in previous expansion, and still feel that the game is fair and fun. If you want to be among the best then you work hard. If you just want to have fun then manage your expectations and try not to compare yourself to the top 10 in logs. It won't do you much good.

[Krille]

The thought is that you might not be facing issues now but over time more guilds die, more people quit, recruitment pool lowers, and perhaps the requirement to raid (skill-wise) become so steep that recruiting just anybody won't work. I'd rather the fidelity of raiding not be compromised for the purpose of accessibility but I also raid Alliance US so I absolutely see myself accepting that.

I believe another issue is just the general required time that has to be spent playing the game outside of raiding. Be it having the correct azerite gear (some which may come from arenas), the correct essences (can come from activities such as farming AV to clearing Mechagon), grinding AP in general, M+ for specific trinkets, etc. Outside of raiding for gear (the only source of it), during WoD and MoP all I had to do was keep up with my legendary quest.
Some might say "yeah I only play for 3 hours a day and that's enough" but that's easy to say at the end of a tier-- I'd be surprised if that's actually true during the first month of a new patch, both during Legion and BFA now, and those same people will probably be decked out in +15 gear the first week the new affix is up for 8.3.

There are also arbitrary check marks that need to be considered. Your DH decides to quit? You're fucked unless someone has a raid-ready alt on hand. No warrior? Your physical DPS is 3% weaker but I suppose it could be worse without scrolls. You can do M-Azshara with a RDruid, HPriest, and MWMonk (now that I checked warcraftlogs apparently not but someone can double-check) but expect 150 extra pulls on your counter. Mandatory buffs and poor role balance means the activity becomes more exclusive, and not in the "I'm a good player and can do the content" exclusive but in the "I wasted my time gearing/farming/grinding this Enhancement Shaman when I could have spent that time on a DH/Rogue" exclusive.

The grinding has been grossly exaggerated since start of BFA. People that dont raid mythic seem to look at Method/Limit streams and think its the norm for mythic raiding. Far from the truth, maybe lower level GMs and RLs tell you to farm a crazy neck level. Just like lower tier mythic guilds abused ML because they dont know how to use it. Stop copying the top 10, they are the ones that need to grind.

For EP we had neck level 55 as requirement. Which is your 2nd minor essence slot. You reached that incredibly easy. World rank 140, 10 hours a week raiding guild.

Some of our raiders were just raid logging, you get the AP required from capping Islands which is 15 minutes of playing. The rest you get from raiding and mission table.

Also no-life players that sit in lower tier guilds love to bitch about grinding, just ignore them and look for yourself.

[burek]

I believe another issue is just the general required time that has to be spent playing the game outside of raiding. Be it having the correct azerite gear (some which may come from arenas), the correct essences (can come from activities such as farming AV to clearing Mechagon), grinding AP in general, M+ for specific trinkets, etc. Outside of raiding for gear (the only source of it), during WoD and MoP all I had to do was keep up with my legendary quest.

Tons and tons of mythic guilds died during WoD where there was nothing else required to be done outside of raiding and the raids themselves were great. I remember how our rank skyrocketed in HFC/Archimonde simply because almost everyone above us quit.

Some random feature someone might not like is not the reason for the general trends of guilds dying and the population decreasing over time.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The top tier raiding scene was even more exclusive back in the day.

There wasn't a top tier raiding scene back in the day. It was just raiding. You either raided or not.

[Zyky]

The grinding has been grossly exaggerated since start of BFA. People that dont raid mythic seem to look at Method/Limit streams and think its the norm for mythic raiding. Far from the truth, maybe lower level GMs and RLs tell you to farm a crazy neck level. Just like lower tier mythic guilds abused ML because they dont know how to use it. Stop copying the top 10, they are the ones that need to grind.

For EP we had neck level 55 as requirement. Which is your 2nd minor essence slot. You reached that incredibly easy. World rank 140, 10 hours a week raiding guild.

Some of our raiders were just raid logging, you get the AP required from capping Islands which is 15 minutes of playing. The rest you get from raiding and mission table.

Also no-life players that sit in lower tier guilds love to bitch about grinding, just ignore them and look for yourself.

What nonsense are you trying to spread, no guild in the top 200 will take you if you aren't at least 68 in your neck. It's been this way for a couple months since catchup stopped. And its understandable as your gain a good amount of survivability and damage through Azerite Armor +5 and Essences scaling off your neck level.

[Gaidax]

What nonsense are you trying to spread, no guild in the top 200 will take you if you aren't at least 68 in your neck. It's been this way for a couple months since catchup stopped. And its understandable as your gain a good amount of survivability and damage through Azerite Armor +5 and Essences scaling off your neck level.

68 neck is some sort of insurmountable challenge nowadays? I was done with months ago simply with table and quick couple of daily quests to kill one thing.

If you can't bloody even manage that, you expect to be trusted to manage mechanics in mythic fight as a new recruit? Entitled much? If you want M.Azshara carry - we're selling.

[mauserr]

I basically started BfA from scratch a month ago (according to raider.io's oldest logged run for my character) at 391 ilvl after hitting 120 (benthic gear and some AH bought items to eliminate the sub 300 ilvl pieces) and I'm already 434 (trinkets being my weakest slots, 415 inkpod, 400 coral, 415 tiny jar) with 68 neck level and 1,1k rio score from strictly PUGGING. I only played with a single friend of mine, we joined a 1 raid/week HC only guild about two resets ago. Most of my playtime is m+ pugs (often making my own groups)

Played: 3 days 6 hours 46 minutes. That's less than 3 hours of playtime every day, and I didn't play every day. I usually played on reset days and somewhere late in the week doing a few M+ keys. I wish I could check the last time I did a world quest, tbh the only ones I did were the ones required for emissary, and not all emissaries, only the big AP ones, like Magni Shitbeard.

68 neck level in a month by just playing the game for 2,6 hours (according to time played / 30) a day, and most of the time I couldn't be bothered to do any world quests. I didn't do island expeditions every week, and I didn't do ANY mission tables whatsoever. There is no grind at all, you're just shit and expect to be able to kill everything on the hardest difficulty without doing literally anything.

The only thing that is a problem are essences. Some of them are to good to pass and they are either grindy as fuck (blood of the enemy) or timegated (mechagon, nazjatar) and that is the only thing that sucks dick big time. Unfortunately 8.3 does nothing to fix that issue for people coming back to the game on their mains, only for alts.

[Relapses]

The fact you think you need to play 30 hours a week to get CE is wild lol. Like, to be clear here, you get benthic from doing like 20mins of daily quests/day You do 3 islands to cap out for the week. I've never even done a warfront this tier either.

I've been raid logging for months.

- My neck is 70. (I got from doing less than an hour of quests a day/islands a week/raid ap.)

- I do 1 m+ a week.

- I have full BIS azerite for 3 specs.

At no point this tier have I even come close to 30 hours a week. Sure - the "grind" should be reduced, but it's not as bad as people here seem to think.

Only bleeding edge guilds do the real grinding.

It's fine if you stay subbed and only raid. I quit at the end of BoD and just came back to the game a week ago. The amount grinding just to get to a point where I'm mediocre is insane. I have some raiding friends who carried me through Heroic and Normal but I still feel further behind than I ever have at any point in the past. It's very oppressive. I'll probably get caught up in a month or so but I'm having to grind a lot to get there.

[Marrilaife]

68 neck level in a month by just playing the game for 2,6 hours (according to time played / 30) a day, and most of the time I couldn't be bothered to do any world quests. I didn't do island expeditions every week, and I didn't do ANY mission tables whatsoever. There is no grind at all, you're just shit and expect to be able to kill everything on the hardest difficulty without doing literally anything.

Let's forget all the AK increases that were running from launch of 8.2 in July until end of October shall we? And that most of progression was done before the AK completed its course?

[Krille]

What nonsense are you trying to spread, no guild in the top 200 will take you if you aren't at least 68 in your neck. It's been this way for a couple months since catchup stopped. And its understandable as your gain a good amount of survivability and damage through Azerite Armor +5 and Essences scaling off your neck level.

What are you talking about? The tier is over, obviously talking about when it was fresh. And getting 55 back then was a joke. "The grind problem" is made up by noobs that use it as an excuse as to why they cant finish the content. Only top 10 teams actually have to spam islands to achieve their goal.

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Let's forget all the AK increases that were running from launch of 8.2 in July until end of October shall we? And that most of progression was done before the AK completed its course?

The point is that you can kill everything in that raid with a 60 neck without being a liability. The only annoying shit atm are essences, but you get the best (for many classes) by simply doing the raid 2 times. Stop using grind as a scapegoat.

[Dakara]

I basically started BfA from scratch a month ago (according to raider.io's oldest logged run for my character) at 391 ilvl after hitting 120 (benthic gear and some AH bought items to eliminate the sub 300 ilvl pieces) and I'm already 434 (trinkets being my weakest slots, 415 inkpod, 400 coral, 415 tiny jar) with 68 neck level and 1,1k rio score from strictly PUGGING. I only played with a single friend of mine, we joined a 1 raid/week HC only guild about two resets ago. Most of my playtime is m+ pugs (often making my own groups)

Played: 3 days 6 hours 46 minutes. That's less than 3 hours of playtime every day, and I didn't play every day. I usually played on reset days and somewhere late in the week doing a few M+ keys. I wish I could check the last time I did a world quest, tbh the only ones I did were the ones required for emissary, and not all emissaries, only the big AP ones, like Magni Shitbeard.

68 neck level in a month by just playing the game for 2,6 hours (according to time played / 30) a day, and most of the time I couldn't be bothered to do any world quests. I didn't do island expeditions every week, and I didn't do ANY mission tables whatsoever. There is no grind at all, you're just shit and expect to be able to kill everything on the hardest difficulty without doing literally anything.

The only thing that is a problem are essences. Some of them are to good to pass and they are either grindy as fuck (blood of the enemy) or timegated (mechagon, nazjatar) and that is the only thing that sucks dick big time. Unfortunately 8.3 does nothing to fix that issue for people coming back to the game on their mains, only for alts.

So you joined the game long after the grind was over and AK had kicked in only to claim that there is no grind and everyone else is shit? I mean, you're basically given a level 35 (iirc?) HoA now when you hit 120.

The one thing you've complained about (essences) is actually the only grind that remains as there's no catchups for them.

The point is that you can kill everything in that raid with a 60 neck without being a liability. The only annoying shit atm are essences, but you get the best (for many classes) by simply doing the raid 2 times. Stop using grind as a scapegoat.

Of course you can... but getting your neck to 60 was just as annoying as essences before AK kicked in. Coming in late and saying "there is no grind, you're all shit" when a lot of players did the content before catchups took hold is quite naive.

[Krille]

So you joined the game long after the grind was over and AK had kicked in only to claim that there is no grind and everyone else is shit? I mean, you're basically given a level 35 (iirc?) HoA now when you hit 120.

The one thing you've complained about (essences) is actually the only grind that remains as there's no catchups for them.



Of course you can... but getting your neck to 60 was just as annoying as essences before AK kicked in. Coming in late and saying "there is no grind, you're all shit" when a lot of players did the content before catchups took hold is quite naive.

I would be happy to share my profiles so you can see when i killed mythic Azshara and try again.

[Celestraza]

2% of the damage I did last Azshara kill amounts to 600k damage. You think it's not much? And that is only one slot of many slots on a single character.

Even if we take all DPS and have them upgrade just that single slot for M.Azshara... Let's see our latest parse had 400 million damage done by DPS player only on Azshara... 2% is 8 million damage.

You think it's a small amount? And that's only one item out of 14 slots. Granted not all slots can be upgraded and so on, but you have at least 6 slots which are giving heavy boosts for mythic players. We're talking easy 10% gap and that's being modest, that's 40 million damage for that Azshara kill.

Not much?

That's why raids are automatically nerfed overtime anyway, because gear makes a BIG ass difference. That's why we no longer do AFK P1 tactics and realm dance last phase on Zaqul, because we have just enough gear to dps him down now and ignore a lot of tactics this way.

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I raid 6 hours a week and almost don't play otherwise and am doing it for many years now.

You have my guild and armory in sig.

If you have no clue it does not mean that 2 night raiding is some impossibility in BfA.

My whole "grind" outside that was on patch launch where I played like 2 hours a day for like 3 weeks and that's it, raid was not even out at that point. After that it was pointless since you already had everything.

You did not even read my post. I said 2 raid night guilds that are competitive in mythic raiding are the exception not the rule. They are very rare and usually consist of an amazing officer team with high end experience that know how to prepare for raids. I bet they spend more time outside WoW and in beta preparing than ingame. The ones I know do at least. Considering you are in one of the best 2 raid night guilds in the world I bet they do too.

That said I still call bullshit on you raid logging the entire expansion. You might be raid logging now since the expansion is over (I did the same in Legion at the last tier). However in the previous raids this expansion you would never have a maxed neckpiece nor such mythic+ score with even playing 1 hour a day.

As I said, show your /played this expansion and we can calculate your average play time a day and see if you really have been raid logging this whole expansion.

2 raid guilds are imho the most time efficient creatures atm in WoW. Starting off at 6 hours a week vs the majority of guilds raiding double/triple that amount. Shame I don't have time to lead a guild anymore. Progress with preperation and taking wipes in account is a lot more fun than what most guilds do these days...

[apustus]

You did not even read my post. I said 2 raid night guilds that are competitive in mythic raiding are the exception not the rule. They are very rare and usually consist of an amazing officer team with high end experience that know how to prepare for raids. I bet they spend more time outside WoW and in beta preparing than ingame. The ones I know do at least. Considering you are in one of the best 2 raid night guilds in the world I bet they do too.

That said I still call bullshit on you raid logging the entire expansion. You might be raid logging now since the expansion is over (I did the same in Legion at the last tier). However in the previous raids this expansion you would never have a maxed neckpiece nor such mythic+ score with even playing 1 hour a day.

As I said, show your /played this expansion and we can calculate your average play time a day and see if you really have been raid logging this whole expansion.

2 raid guilds are imho the most time efficient creatures atm in WoW. Starting off at 6 hours a week vs the majority of guilds raiding double/triple that amount. Shame I don't have time to lead a guild anymore. Progress with preperation and taking wipes in account is a lot more fun than what most guilds do these days...

I have 57 days played on my main out of the 500 BFA has been out, which translates to a bit over 2½ hours played per day over the course of the expansion. This was also HEAVILY weighted towards the start of the expansion, and includes a LOT of time not actually increasing my character's power and we're rank 21 (on WoWProgress, so probably around 25) for this tier. And I'm probably in the top 5 of our guild's autistic grinder scale.

For whatever that's worth.

[Erolian]

You did not even read my post. I said 2 raid night guilds that are competitive in mythic raiding are the exception not the rule. They are very rare and usually consist of an amazing officer team with high end experience that know how to prepare for raids. I bet they spend more time outside WoW and in beta preparing than ingame. The ones I know do at least. Considering you are in one of the best 2 raid night guilds in the world I bet they do too.

That said I still call bullshit on you raid logging the entire expansion. You might be raid logging now since the expansion is over (I did the same in Legion at the last tier). However in the previous raids this expansion you would never have a maxed neckpiece nor such mythic+ score with even playing 1 hour a day.

As I said, show your /played this expansion and we can calculate your average play time a day and see if you really have been raid logging this whole expansion.

2 raid guilds are imho the most time efficient creatures atm in WoW. Starting off at 6 hours a week vs the majority of guilds raiding double/triple that amount. Shame I don't have time to lead a guild anymore. Progress with preperation and taking wipes in account is a lot more fun than what most guilds do these days...

For whatever its worth I also raid in a 2 day/8 hour a week guild a couple places ahead of the guy you quoted and the background information you're attributing to the officers/raid leaders isn't really the case in terms of overall experience or even needed in the end. All you have to want to do is improve and know how to identify and address problems. This guild is the most casual guild I've been in in at least 6 years. While I definitely do play more than most of our raiders and have a lot of experience by comparison to most of the raiders many of them come pretty close to raid logging and began raiding in some cases probably half a decade or more after I did. Its pretty easy to improve yourself and clear the current content if you want to approach it intelligently even if you do lack experience. Its a mentality that you need to improve yourself that can't be taught very easily but if you can figure it out just finishing and getting a CE achievement given like minded players isn't really that high of a bar or an achievement really worth talking about. Knowing how to deal with and understand other people is the real secret to wow raiding imo

[Gaidax]

We're doing it at 6 hours/week! Our epeen is more massive!

At any rate, all these silly stories about how Mythic requires grind and shit like that are totally out of whack. People have no idea.

[Zyky]

68 neck is some sort of insurmountable challenge nowadays? I was done with months ago simply with table and quick couple of daily quests to kill one thing.

If you can't bloody even manage that, you expect to be trusted to manage mechanics in mythic fight as a new recruit? Entitled much? If you want M.Azshara carry - we're selling.

Man you have a problem reading don't you? I clearly said months ago.

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What are you talking about? The tier is over, obviously talking about when it was fresh. And getting 55 back then was a joke. "The grind problem" is made up by noobs that use it as an excuse as to why they cant finish the content. Only top 10 teams actually have to spam islands to achieve their goal.

You're the one saying the grind doesn't matter and that "only the top 10 and overzealous GMs/raid leaders" require it, when in reality since before the catch up was capped just about every guild in the top 200 were requiring high level necks that required you to stay up on it and not just, in your words, raid log.

[Gaidax]

You're the one saying the grind doesn't matter and that "only the top 10 and overzealous GMs/raid leaders" require it, when in reality since before the catch up was capped just about every guild in the top 200 were requiring high level necks that required you to stay up on it and not just, in your words, raid log.

Bullshit.

This only might be a requirement if you want to join said guild, which is like duuuh show that you are at least capable of that. I had my 70 months ago and most of it was simply table and couple dailies - the easiest ones where you kill 1 thing.

You are literally grasping at straws.

[apustus]

Man you have a problem reading don't you? I clearly said months ago.

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You're the one saying the grind doesn't matter and that "only the top 10 and overzealous GMs/raid leaders" require it, when in reality since before the catch up was capped just about every guild in the top 200 were requiring high level necks that required you to stay up on it and not just, in your words, raid log.

We had 4 people at 65 neck on our Azshara kill. I was 63.

[Tradu]

Yet, the 90% of this game is complaining about classes being too similar, go figure.

Just because you are slightly more realistic and not a complete retard like the WoW community, doesnt mean Blizzard cant change things.

I was just giving an example, they can literally do whatever they want and they can accommodate every single change because in the end its just numbers and its fixable by math and thats literally a fact

Maybe not the best fact cause some things might become repetitive faster aka more boring but still.

Because it's true. In terms of gameplay, basically all classes play very similarly. That doesn't mean specs have the same strengths and weaknesses.

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Obviously they should have stuck with the EN tuning going forward.

EN tuning where the raid as a whole is more like heroic than mythic, and the hardest bosses are Il'gynoth(3rd to last) and Cenarius(2nd to last), with the last boss probably being the easiest in the raid? How about no.