So when will Blizzard stop giving players rental powers?

[kaminaris]

I'm done btw. Please give the users of your addon a disclaimer that the author of that rotation addon doesn't know how corruption gear works and that you can equip more the further into BfA we go.

You are joking right? Do you know math? Profile I showed you, made 91K dps, and you are calling your sims topbis?
Even if you add 6K = 86K that is still not enough as my profile did 91K

Where is the profile, I will show you how to use simcraft as you simply don't know.

[Doffen]

You are joking right? Do you know math? Profile I showed you, made 91K dps, and you are calling your sims topbis?
Even if you add 6K = 86K that is still not enough as my profile did 91K

Where is the profile, I will show you how to use simcraft as you simply don't know.

It is what I called it yes, you can read the thing below it right? It is my gear but with best corruption and cloak without the proc. It was just my working title lol.

So it's not simmed with the BiS gear in game. I wrote that below that it doesn't have the heart at max or cloak with proc at max etc, it do show you the ilvl on the ones I compared with there. So do you know how it works?

[kaminaris]

It is what I called it yes, you can read the thing below it right? It is my gear but with best corruption and cloak without the proc. It was just my working title lol.

So it's not simmed with the BiS gear in game. I wrote that below that it doesn't have the heart at max or cloak with proc at max etc, it do show you the ilvl on the ones I compared with there. So do you know how it works?

Give me the profile, we will see how good are your simc skills. I bet a crate of whiskey even with your current gear and added bis corruptions (1x infinite starts rank 3, 1x infinite stars R1) result will be still the same or very close to it.

[Tantaburs]

I'm done btw. Please give the users of your addon a disclaimer that the author of that rotation addon doesn't know how corruption gear works and that you can equip more the further into BfA we go.

205 Net corruption is not a realistic gear set. No one is going to play at 205 net corrupition

The slow would root you
The Eye would take up most of the boss room and you wouldn't be able to get out of it
The thing from beyond would Usain Bolt to you and one shot you
The Damage Amp Aura would make every AoE one shot you

You say I only have 33 Net corruption, which I commented on and calculated for in my post, but the game is balanced around players having 39 corruption which is why that is the recommended corruption rate on raidbots. which means with current set up I am 6 corruption away from optimal corruption. There is no corruption peice that provides only 6 corruption.

You two are both still arguing this point terribly since you are arguing on the wrong topic. You are both arguning raw numbers which don't actually matter what should matter is agency. You say I state he is arguing better than you because I agree with him but I actually don't I agree with you BFA's rental power is worse that Legions and it has nothing to do with the DPS it adds

Lets say that his numbers are correct and Legion added 70% and BFA adds 50% (not saying they are correct I haven't researched them but we need a starting point)

Of the 70% that Legion added, The artifacts traits change how I play the game, the legendaries change how I play the game, The tier sets can change the way I play the game. A mage without a legion artifact plays entirely differently to a mage that doesn''t. A mage with Bracers and Belt plays differently that a mage with Shard and Prydaz.

Compare that to BfA and non of the rental power really changes how I play my character. Lucid dreams makes combustion more effective but It doens't really change how I play my rotation, Blaster Master makes Ignite do more damage and there are a few things that you can tweak your rotation around to maximize stacks but most people don't because its not really worth the effort. The minor essences do nothing to effect my gameplay, same with most of the azerite traits. For example if I look at my Warrior None of the BiS traits or Essences really change your rotation, CS,HB can make you prioritize BT over Raging Blow but thats really it.

DPS numbers don't really matter because you will always do the damage that you need to do the content thats how balancing works. If we had no rental gear then bosses you just have 55% less hp then they do now they would do less damage to make up for the lower HPand Healing amounts. Its not like when we lose Essences and Azerite the game will become unplayable because the world will adjust to our change in power.

TL;DR - Comparing raw damage differences isn't the best metric when you should be looking at how much agency and control you have over the damage you are doing.

[GUZ]

what do you think old gear sets were

[Kalisandra]

I bring up tier set because we DID have them every expansion until BfA. Tier set were always temporary power gain that were replaced by azerite in BfA.

However, they were a relatively minor boost, and usually didn't do more than add a bit of damage to an existing ability or make one proc more often. Also, they were replaced as a natural part of gear progression - you kept using them until you got something better, and if you only raided casually or had bad gear luck you might be using two pieces of the current tier plus two pieces of the old tier for some time. Even when expansions changed, you used the old stuff until it was out-grown, sometimes keeping it until you hit level cap in the new expac. This is entirely different to what we saw with the artefacts, which were simply turned off in the BfA pre-patch, and legendaries, which stop working at L116 (a huge power drop for a character that had good Legion kit). The feeling is quite different, especially with the Artefact and Legendaries often profoundly affecting talent choice and rotation.

If they turn off all the azerite gear, essences, and corruption (and let's face it, lorewise once N'zoth is defeated all your corruption effects should simply stop working) like they did the Legion effects, it will be similar. We'll be back to gutted specs that have barely functional rotations and which have to be retalented into talents that 'work' with that. This hasn'r been helped by the devs' practice of 'fixing' specs by giving them over-powered spec-specific azerite traits to paper over problems with the core spec design.

Here's hoping the Shadowlands class/spec design team does a better job than the BfA team did, and designs the classes and specs to work without the rental powers first, and then adds those powers.

No single piece of BfA gear is a larger change to character playstyle and effectiveness than Artifact weapons were. Many Legion specs didn't really function without their artifact ability as they were designed with it in mind (one of the main issues with BfA class design if you ask me I think classes would have played much better if every class got their Artifact ability evergreened)

Agreed. Those that did get it got it as a talent, usually nerfed, I think.

One thing that made the artefacts work (for me, at any rate) was that they mostly felt pretty powerful, and they made the characters powerful. Sure, some of the things they did just gave back things we had in WoD, but at least they gave lots of other shiny stuff too, and some of it was pretty interesting as well. BfA just feels stingy in comparison, and even though the corruption abilities are (some of them) way over-powered, they just aren't very interesting. In Legion we got a weapon and legendaries that let us do cool things. In BfA we get items that do damage (or healing) - we don't do it, the items do.

The source for the corruption math is in my post if you read it. Go to blood mallet and look at the dps/corruption chart (which shows that infinite stars is not BiS for most specs and corruption is actually relatively decently balanced) it averages out at ~200 per point. Common wisdom is for safe play cap at 39 net corruption so you know you get 60 resistance from cloak and the new dps essence bringing you to 99*200

The top parses show people running a lot more than a net 39 corruption.

[Tantaburs]

However, they were a relatively minor boost, and usually didn't do more than add a bit of damage to an existing ability or make one proc more often. Also, they were replaced as a natural part of gear progression - you kept using them until you got something better, and if you only raided casually or had bad gear luck you might be using two pieces of the current tier plus two pieces of the old tier for some time. Even when expansions changed, you used the old stuff until it was out-grown, sometimes keeping it until you hit level cap in the new expac. This is entirely different to what we saw with the artefacts, which were simply turned off in the BfA pre-patch, and legendaries, which stop working at L116 (a huge power drop for a character that had good Legion kit). The feeling is quite different, especially with the Artefact and Legendaries often profoundly affecting talent choice and rotation.

If they turn off all the azerite gear, essences, and corruption (and let's face it, lorewise once N'zoth is defeated all your corruption effects should simply stop working) like they did the Legion effects, it will be similar. We'll be back to gutted specs that have barely functional rotations and which have to be retalented into talents that 'work' with that. This hasn'r been helped by the devs' practice of 'fixing' specs by giving them over-powered spec-specific azerite traits to paper over problems with the core spec design.

Here's hoping the Shadowlands class/spec design team does a better job than the BfA team did, and designs the classes and specs to work without the rental powers first, and then adds those powers.
Agreed. Those that did get it got it as a talent, usually nerfed, I think.

One thing that made the artefacts work (for me, at any rate) was that they mostly felt pretty powerful, and they made the characters powerful. Sure, some of the things they did just gave back things we had in WoD, but at least they gave lots of other shiny stuff too, and some of it was pretty interesting as well. BfA just feels stingy in comparison, and even though the corruption abilities are (some of them) way over-powered, they just aren't very interesting. In Legion we got a weapon and legendaries that let us do cool things. In BfA we get items that do damage (or healing) - we don't do it, the items do.
The top parses show people running a lot more than a net 39 corruption.

Top parses are also not a good metric to use on comparisons. You don't compare outlier to outlier you compare average to average and if you are talking about the validity and merit of game design, which is what we are discussing here, then you want to compare intended to intended.

Its possible the balance wasn't tuned correctly so that people can go above the intended level of corruption but that isn't a fair comparison when looking at how its been designed

[Kalisandra]

Although I am not a fan of this rental power system, the infinite item progression is far more annoying imo.
Also pvp gear not being sold by vendors is a huge issue for me. In late pandaria we had by far the best system for pvp gearing we ever had in the game.

Can we just go back to those systems? I would be far happier with them.

Being able to slowly purchase PvP gear was an essential part of Wrath, Cata, MoP, and WoD gearing. It allowed people who had crappy gear luck in their PvE game fill in the holes by doing rated PvP. While they may not have liked it, if it really wasn't their thing there was usually some other option for most gear slots, though getting a crafted weapon in MoP (for example) took longer and it wasn't as good as a PvP one. However, while they were doing all the rated PvP (probably arenas), they were filling the lower-mid end of the PvP ladder, and giving rated PvP a decent population. Without all those casual PvPers, grinding out gear, the ladders are far more empty, and the whole PvP scene has tended to wither away.

TL;DR - letting people buy gear via PvP was good for both the PvP and the PvE gaming scene.

[Doffen]

205 Net corruption is not a realistic gear set. No one is going to play at 205 net corrupition.

That was my bad, I read that at 200 corruption resistance, but it's 125 at max on cloak(+10 from Breath of the Dying)And then you can use three rank 3 corruptions. And that boost is massive, and I can't say that enough. I play at 48 now, and so does the best dps(or even more) because it's very doable. It depends on the player, and somewhat on the spec, but it's not very lethal. With three rank 3s at 60 each you'll be at 45 total corruption when the cloak is maxed, and that is less that top players do now. You are really underestimating how much damage corruption gear will do in the following months. So to sim with mediocre corruption and then compare it to max stuff in Legion isn't right.

TL;DR - Comparing raw damage differences isn't the best metric when you should be looking at how much agency and control you have over the damage you are doing.

It is. But in any way, compare to equal power. Not one BiS to one mediocre. Or vica versa.

[Kalisandra]

Top parses are also not a good metric to use on comparisons. You don't compare outlier to outlier you compare average to average and if you are talking about the validity and merit of game design, which is what we are discussing here, then you want to compare intended to intended.

Its possible the balance wasn't tuned correctly so that people can go above the intended level of corruption but that isn't a fair comparison when looking at how its been designed

We should look at what we have, not what the devs say they wanted us to have. If everything worked the way the devs claim they wanted it to, many times the game would have been quite different.

Also, even at the 'top 500' and 'top 1000' level parses on warcraftlogs for mythic Wrathion most people are running 75-95 corruption, less 27, for a net 48-68 corruption. If that's what high-end raiders consider acceptable (and as healers gear up and player health pools rise they acceptable net corruption is likely to rise), we'll be seeing players with three 60 corruption pieces soon enough. At ~200 DPS per point (and for some specs it's more than that) that's 36K DPS.

[Tantaburs]

That was my bad, I read that at 200 corruption resistance, but it's 125 at max on cloak(+10 from Breath of the Dying)And then you can use three rank 3 corruptions. And that boost is massive, and I can't say that enough. I play at 48 now, and so does the best dps(or even more) because it's very doable. It depends on the player, and somewhat on the spec, but it's not very lethal. With three rank 3s at 60 each you'll be at 45 total corruption when the cloak is maxed, and that is less that top players do now. You are really underestimating how much damage corruption gear will do in the following months. So to sim with mediocre corruption and then compare it to max stuff in Legion isn't right.


It is. But in any way, compare to equal power. Not one BiS to one mediocre. Or vica versa.

Tier 3 infinite stars is 75 not 60. Also 125 corruption resist is similar to overloaded weapons its over powered by design.

The fairest comparison is 60 corruption resistance to Max artifacts as it is the intended state of both systems in their end state. I'd wager that the majority of people will not get to 125 resistance unless they have the piece drop from lfr which I'm not sure if it will.


You're also ignoring that I'm comparing percent differences and my gear is middling as well. I'm 454ish iLvL so while I'll have more dps from corruption at raid end I'll also have more damage from having a 470 iLvL by end raid as well.

We should look at what we have, not what the devs say they wanted us to have. If everything worked the way the devs claim they wanted it to, many times the game would have been quite different.

Also, even at the 'top 500' and 'top 1000' level parses on warcraftlogs for mythic Wrathion most people are running 75-95 corruption, less 27, for a net 48-68 corruption. If that's what high-end raiders consider acceptable (and as healers gear up and player health pools rise they acceptable net corruption is likely to rise), we'll be seeing players with three 60 corruption pieces soon enough. At ~200 DPS per point (and for some specs it's more than that) that's 36K DPS

Hard disagree. If you are talking about the design of the systems then you should be looking at the intended values. That's the only way you can judge whether the system was designed well or not. Implementation is an entirely different thing.

The other problem with comparing higher corruption numbers is that it's not spec agnostic some specs can deal with corruption much easier than others and its hard to Sim for.

Can I deal with high corruption as a mage. Yeah pretty easily tbh. I can FN things from beyonf and shimmer out of eye if corruption. But those actions cost me damage. They cost me less damage than the corruption gains me sure but the Sim doesn't take the damage loss into the equation.

[Doffen]

Tier 3 infinite stars is 75 not 60. Also 125 corruption resist is similar to overloaded weapons its over powered by design.

Tier 3 starts at 60. I know this because I have a 60 echoing void while my warlock got rank 2 and paladin rank 1. All show the real rank damage. And I did the sim with 3rank 60s and sim list rank 3 up as 60 corruption.

And now it's bedtime because I don't think. Yes, infinite stars is at 75, you are correct. So 2 infinite stars and 1 rank 1/2 depending in player is doable when you get max resistance.

With 2 additional Echoing Void my dps went up 19k. Leaving a corruption effect with around 30% of my damage. It is that strong.

[kaminaris]

Tier 3 starts at 60. I know this because I have a 60 echoing void while my warlock got rank 2 and paladin rank 1. All show the real rank damage. And I did the sim with 3rank 60s and sim list rank 3 up as 60 corruption.

With 2 additional Echoing Void my dps went up 19k. Leaving a corruption effect with around 30% of my damage. It is that strong.

He said infinite stars is 75 corruption not 60. And he is correct

[Doffen]

He said infinite stars is 75 corruption not 60. And he is correct

Yes, I just edited.

[Tantaburs]

Tier 3 starts at 60. I know this because I have a 60 echoing void while my warlock got rank 2 and paladin rank 1. All show the real rank damage. And I did the sim with 3rank 60s and sim list rank 3 up as 60 corruption.

With 2 additional Echoing Void my dps went up 19k. Leaving a corruption effect with around 30% of my damage. It is that strong.

You know different corruption effect have different values right.

Tier 3 infinite stars is 75 not 60. Tier 3 echoing void may be 60 (mmo champ had it listed at 50 but I'll take you word on 60).

As you have spoken about infinite stars as your corruption is most of you posts I gave you the value for that.

Again it's 30% of you damage now (which seems high I'd like a source on that please) but it won't be when your item level goes up to 475. You are comparing end game corruption values with start of tier gear levels.

[Doffen]

You know different corruption effect have different values right.

Tier 3 infinite stars is 75 not 60. Tier 3 echoing void may be 60 (mmo champ had it listed at 50 but I'll take you word on 60).

As you have spoken about infinite stars as your corruption is most of you posts I gave you the value for that.

Again it's 30% of you damage now (which seems high I'd like a source on that please) but it won't be when your item level goes up to 475. You are comparing end game corruption values with start of tier gear levels.

Yeah, I know. Got TD on a 410 wq item on my hunter today, good times.

Well yeah, but the longer you go into the expansion you also will get that cloak with the proc so it adds up in rental power. And gear won't do that much damage in the expansion, better essences, better heart of azeroth, better traits(better output) and so on just adds up in rental power.

Three rank 3 echoing void sims(the one from earlier at 80k, I double checked and it simmed just a bit higher than the following) better than two rank 3s Infinite stars and one rank 2 echoing void. Two rank 3 infinite stars + one rank 1 infinite stars even lower.

And remember, with max resistance you only end up with 38 total corruption so its room for even more. So remember that when you read those sims below. 38 is kinda low for a good player, so the potential is even greater.


Bit different essence setup while doing a patchwerk sim. Without any corruption gear(I got a rank 3 echoing void + weapon, Lash of the void) and those do 17.3% of my damage. And then you add those 17287 dps. It's higher than even I thought.

This is my damage breakdown with current gear:

17.3% of my damage is corruption at this level, as in live.

And I simmed without corruption gear earlier, and I can't be arsed logging in another time today, but without corruption I simmed at 48k something dps. It is earlier in this thread I think. So:

76014 - 48000k =36.85%
So 36-37% of the damage I simmed there is corruption effects only. Now I won't link anymore sims. They are there in this thread to prove that corruption gear is super strong. And that is only ONE of the rental powers we got in BfA.


But now it's good night.

[Tantaburs]

Yeah, I know. Got TD on a 410 wq item on my hunter today, good times.

Well yeah, but the longer you go into the expansion you also will get that cloak with the proc so it adds up in rental power. And gear won't do that much damage in the expansion, better essences, better heart of azeroth, better traits(better output) and so on just adds up in rental power.

Three rank 3 echoing void sims(the one from earlier at 80k, I double checked and it simmed just a bit higher than the following) better than two rank 3s Infinite stars and one rank 2 echoing void. Two rank 3 infinite stars + one rank 1 infinite stars even lower.

And remember, with max resistance you only end up with 38 total corruption so its room for even more. So remember that when you read those sims below. 38 is kinda low for a good player, so the potential is even greater.


Bit different essence setup while doing a patchwerk sim. Without any corruption gear(I got a rank 3 echoing void + weapon, Lash of the void) and those do 17.3% of my damage. And then you add those 17287 dps. It's higher than even I thought.

This is my damage breakdown with current gear:

17.3% of my damage is corruption at this level, as in live.

And I simmed without corruption gear earlier, and I can't be arsed logging in another time today, but without corruption I simmed at 48k something dps. It is earlier in this thread I think. So:

76014 - 48000k =36.85%
So 36-37% of the damage I simmed there is corruption effects only. Now I won't link anymore sims. They are there in this thread to prove that corruption gear is super strong. And that is only ONE of the rental powers we got in BfA.


But now it's good night.

Again stop simming End of Game corruption levels with 440 gear. As you said yourself you need to compare like to like. If you are going to sim 175 corruption then you need to sim it against 475 iLvL and realisitically you need to compare that to Overloaded Artifact weapons which were wildly overpowered BY DESIGN.

Thats why simming at 175 corruption is meaningless because you are saying that a system that is designed to be over powered is overpowered. Yeah it probable is thats the point.

Simming at 99 corruption gives a reasonable measure of what most players will get to and perform well at. If you want to add extra for high skill levels you can sim at 120ish which adds ~4000 dps.

[Schattenlied]

Probly never, but hopefully real fuckin soon.

[Doffen]

Thats why simming at 175 corruption is meaningless because you are saying that a system that is designed to be over powered is overpowered. Yeah it probable is thats the point.

I have actually not said that. I know you have said it like 2 or 3 times, but you might confuse me with the other poster who did indeed right something about overpowered stuff. I am just saying how it is. It's powerful, just like legendaries was for example

Simming at 99 corruption gives a reasonable measure of what most players will get to and perform well at. If you want to add extra for high skill levels you can sim at 120ish which adds ~4000 dps.

This is the big mistake you are doing. So extra skill levels you can sim at 120ish? So 15 below total corruption resistence? So you are saying that you think people, with extra skill will be below the total corruption? LMAO! I mean, come on, stop with the nonsense. Extra skill level players will play with 50-60 total corruption, and maybe even more. That is 180-190 corruption. That you even try to make sense to this is astonishing. People use like 70-80 total corruption already, just check the logs in Ny'alotha. People go with 1 max infinite stars and 1 max echoing void already and it does 20-25% of their damage. Now! Already! What do you think we can do when we can equip even more?


Just look at this. 1 infinite star rank 3 does 23% of his damage. How much do you think it can do when he got 2, or even 3 of those when we get more corruption resistance when he don't have to deal with the shit that comes with 100+ corruption now? Same player use 1 corruption effect on the mythic version and that stars is 24.57% of his damage. You understand how powerful it is right now and how powerful it will be when we can equip 3 of them?

Again stop simming End of Game corruption levels with 440 gear. As you said yourself you need to compare like to like. If you are going to sim 175 corruption then you need to sim it against 475 iLvL and realisitically you need to compare that to Overloaded Artifact weapons which were wildly overpowered BY DESIGN.

Why even bother showing you sims when you don't want to respect the time and effort someone do to actually prove something. While you come here and are excusing overpowered stuff in Legion, but in BfA there is no such thing when it's in front of you. Overpowered Artifact gave you what, 8% damage increase? While corruption do this at max ilvl:

Oh wait, like, 36% of damage still? See that wooping 8.8% the extra item level do? see the 36k ish dps infinite stars rank 3 times 2, + 1 rank 1, + lash of the void do? So still 36%. 185 corruption, negated with 135 resistence, so 55 total corruption. Seeing the extra gear also helps with extra surviveability, it just becomes easier to have higher corruption. I am at 48 now, no problem whatsoever. It shows at 450 item level, but the lowest is my live character, the one above with higher item level, no corruption, and the one on top is max item level, and the corruption.

Here it is with 3 times rank 3 echoing void:

Bit less dps, but still 31%.

You know, I was actually writing a big rant on how posters like you just wave off real proof when you get proven wrong. You know that traits like Echoing Void and Twilight Devastation scale with item level? Because its based on HP. So the longer we get into the expansion, the more damage they will do. Probably why they are getting nerfed a bit now, while Infinite Stars doesn't have that scaling, and it's only really good(aka op af) for single target, but mediocre elsewhere.

[KaPe]

I have to wonder what even is the argument in the last few dozen posts. Who cares if BFA or Legion had a higher degree of "borrowed power". The problem is exactly the same in both cases. When the next expansion comes, all of this will be gone and your character will be a shadow of their former self. It happened in Legion prepatch, where they had to nerf the raid by some insane amount, because it was impossible to kill bosses with nerfed characters. BFA was slightly different, since the power loss only happened at level 116, but it was still a major blow to our characters.

Legion had the advantage of Artifact weapons augmenting the character base abilities, in most cases giving them additional ability. Azerite used to be dominated by generic, non-class specific traits and damage procs. It's been somewhat improved for certain specs, but plenty of them are still pretty weak. Corruptions are just crazy powerful trinket effects, way stronger than any tier sets. Again, most Legendaries had the advantage of amplifying class specific abilities.

Either way, the actual % of this "borrowed power" does not matter. What matters is classes were gutted at their core and are only "fixed" by gear for the duration of the expansion. Yeah, sure, Blizzard claims we'll have some of our "iconic" abilities back in Shadowlands, but who know how that will work out. We know for a fact that Covenants will be yet another borrowed power and it remains to be seen how strong that ends up being.

And perhaps the most annoying part of this new system is feeling that you constantly have to work for something that will be completely irrelevant within next few patches. It was fine when this was only the case with gear, but losing your actual toolkit is far more annoying. Especially when gear came naturally from playing, but AP was quite a grind and only became relatively easy in 8.3. I don't know if I want to spend months farming "Anima Points" through thousands of repetitive World Quests, only to throw them all away at the end.

At very least, some of that stuff could be used to make a new talent row. There's a ton of stuff that was created and then completely abandonded. Even from design point of view, it feels like a colossal waste of resources to not utilize them in future expansions in any way.