So when will Blizzard stop giving players rental powers?

[Lahis]

All this means is that we're getting ability purge every expansion. I don't see how this is any better.

Thos way it is atleast announced beforehand, and no abilities have chance to stick around long enough to become iconic for the class.

[KaPe]

Thos way it is atleast announced beforehand, and no abilities have chance to stick around long enough to become iconic for the class.

I don't know, some legendaries could very well be iconic. I certainly thought that Holy Priest auto-res cloak should be a core part of my spec and I'm pretty sure plenty of other people had their favourites.

[bryroo]

Never. It's how they cope with power creep and button bloat

A happy compromise would be choosing from the community's favorites and making them into a new talent row each expansion and only pruning from that every decade

[Schizoide]

Yes, exactly right. I have no problem with expansion-only powers. It's an innovation that solved a real problem.

The rental power concept is great, but the implementations varied. Both artifacts/legendaries and azerite had major design issues at launch and had to be fixed late in the expansion.

[Mardux]

Never. It's how they cope with power creep and button bloat

A happy compromise would be choosing from the community's favorites and making them into a new talent row each expansion and only pruning from that every decade

Your compromise wouldnt solve power creep though. The community's favorite will almost always be the strongest or most overpowered.

[Ehrenpanzer]

I generally agree with the exception that most power rental gear was in legion. Without artifact you were literally a peasant not a champion.

Right? I mean, all we'd have done to that point is defeat the Scourge, then Illidan, then KJ in his hot tub, then the LK, then Deathwing, then stopped an old gods influence on the warchief, then Archimonde.. what a bunch of useless nobodies right?

[Amariw]

Oh we found yet another thing to rip apart to create drama. Amazing.

These so-called rental powers are what keeps the game fresh and diversifies the playstyle of the classes every expansion without having to make lasting changes every time or completely changing a classes basic playstyle. People loved the Legion Artifacts and their abilities, People loved to have several different legendary effects (only the RNG of aquiring them sucked), but now since we have to hate BFA and everything about it, this also sucks.

People in Legion: "Remove Tier-sets they suck"- Blizz removes tier sets - People: "OMG gief us back tier-sets they were so good, BFA sucks."
People in Legion: "Remove Legendaries, gief us other ways to get new powers." - Blizz removes random Legendaries, implements Essences - "OMG remove Essences I don't wanna play the game to get stuff, BFA sucks."

But it really was a problem that started in legion, it only bore its bad fruit in bfa. Keeping things fresh is a worthwhile endeavor, but i rather they do it through content and glyphs creating alternate playstyles rather then try to add power and take it away. In both legion and bfa, the classes didn't really work well without the rentals (azerite, artifacts), meaning each time blizz had to readjust and redesign anyway, and you felt peetty bad if you didnt get the "right" powers (atleast in legion it was eventually all unlocked though). Have good base kits with fun combat, that is enough.

[Schizoide]

Those alternate playstyles, the horizontal progression, that would need to be supported going forward too. So if they gave prot warriors gladiator stance back for example, they would need to support gladiator stance forever. It would need to be balanced from the on, both in ST and AE, it would need to compete on utility and mobility with arms and fury, etc, etc. And that's exactly what they don't want to do.

I disagree with your statement about specs not feeling good without rentals in BFA. That was 100% true in Legion, when everybody got tons of stuff specific to their spec, but in Legion the azerite stuff is largely passives that don't change your playstyle, and mostly generic ones at that. The most impactful one, IMO, is resounding protection-- that is just gamechanging for solo content in particular. But it has nothing to do with your spec or class.

[Knolan]

Being able to slowly purchase PvP gear was an essential part of Wrath, Cata, MoP, and WoD gearing. It allowed people who had crappy gear luck in their PvE game fill in the holes by doing rated PvP. While they may not have liked it, if it really wasn't their thing there was usually some other option for most gear slots, though getting a crafted weapon in MoP (for example) took longer and it wasn't as good as a PvP one. However, while they were doing all the rated PvP (probably arenas), they were filling the lower-mid end of the PvP ladder, and giving rated PvP a decent population. Without all those casual PvPers, grinding out gear, the ladders are far more empty, and the whole PvP scene has tended to wither away.

TL;DR - letting people buy gear via PvP was good for both the PvP and the PvE gaming scene.

Not only that, but the catch up conquest points system allowed people to skip a week of game without huge impact (save the first 3 weeks, where you would buy your weapon, that was a huge boost).

I remember that people would play on their main (and maybe one alt), but at some point (around week 8) you could get the weapon, even if you have no played at all, so lots of people would play their other alts. Later at another point, you could get the full set only by the catch up, so you would again see a lot of people playing alts. This would keep the system alive and you always had that friend who would ask help to gear their alt.

Finally and most important IMO, at some point everyone had access to exactly the same gear, it was not hard at all to farm, you could play at 0 rating on 2s and would get 180 points per win and could buy the same gear as people at 3000 rating. This made the game so much more focused on skill than on gear and would be a huge incentive for people to join.

Last week I was feeling a bit tired of classic, and I was thinking if I should try patch 8.3... then I remembered I have no gear and realistically won't be able to get any decent ones if I don't do mythic+, which I don't want to. So I went to play on Warmane WotLK server.

[Kalisandra]

Never.

Adding permanent abilities and talents would sooner or later lead into another round of pruning and we know how well that went the last time. Tying abilities into systems that last only for one expansion mean they don't need to consider the future when doing them.

So instead of pruning every expansion or three, they just throw out everything each expansion, maybe keeping a thing to replace an old thing. I cannot see that as an improvement.

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Oh we found yet another thing to rip apart to create drama. Amazing.

These so-called rental powers are what keeps the game fresh and diversifies the playstyle of the classes every expansion without having to make lasting changes every time or completely changing a classes basic playstyle. People loved the Legion Artifacts and their abilities, People loved to have several different legendary effects (only the RNG of aquiring them sucked), but now since we have to hate BFA and everything about it, this also sucks.

People in Legion: "Remove Tier-sets they suck"- Blizz removes tier sets - People: "OMG gief us back tier-sets they were so good, BFA sucks."
People in Legion: "Remove Legendaries, gief us other ways to get new powers." - Blizz removes random Legendaries, implements Essences - "OMG remove Essences I don't wanna play the game to get stuff, BFA sucks."

I don't recall a strong pressure to remove tier set bonuses. I recall complaints because many of them sucked, and their power was all over the map. I recall complaints because they were being used to paper over poor class design and performance (as azerite traits are now).

As for the Legion artefact and legendaries - they generally fitted the specs they were made for, and worked with them, enhancing the spec in some way. I was sceptical when they first announced the weapons for Legion, as I didn't think they'd be up to making that many new advancement paths, and making them fit the spec they were for, and work properly, and also do all the lore for them. I was very pleasantly surprised - the result wasn't perfect, especially early on, but overall it was a really impressive piece of work by the devs. The legendaries were more of a mixed bag, with some being amazing and others pretty unexciting, but there were some really fun pieces in the mix. Losing them was painful not merely because so much character power was bound up in them, but because they were overall, a lot of fun.

This time round the overall power of the rentals is going to end up about the same, and they are far less engaging on top of it. They don't fill in holes in rotations, as was promised, they merely buff an ability or two so the rotation works and damage is done (barely, in the case of Arcane). Many of the traits, plus all of the essences and corruptions are generic, and the corruptions with special effects are just about all about dealing damage. How do they make me feel like my healer is utterly awesome as a healer? Why isn't there a corruption that gives tanks something like a feign death effect or the like? No, we just get more damage.

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I disagree with your statement about specs not feeling good without rentals in BFA. That was 100% true in Legion, when everybody got tons of stuff specific to their spec, but in Legion the azerite stuff is largely passives that don't change your playstyle, and mostly generic ones at that. The most impactful one, IMO, is resounding protection-- that is just gamechanging for solo content in particular. But it has nothing to do with your spec or class.

That's not so for all specs. Which traits you have affects what talents are worthwhile for Elemental, and that affects your playstyle. They are also strong enough that not having the right trait can make a +30 ilevel piece barely worth having.

[Lahis]

So instead of pruning every expansion or three, they just throw out everything each expansion, maybe keeping a thing to replace an old thing. I cannot see that as an improvement.

It really isn't, but it is what makes shit easier for Blizz so they prefer doing it this way.

[Schizoide]

There was never any pressure to remove tier sets. Everybody loves tiers. That guy simply made it up out of whole cloth. We don't have tiers this expansion because they're a lot of work for the art team, that is the beginning, middle, and end of the explanation.

[Aliven]

There was never any pressure to remove tier sets. Everybody loves tiers. That guy simply made it up out of whole cloth. We don't have tiers this expansion because they're a lot of work for the art team, that is the beginning, middle, and end of the explanation.

Actually, azerite armor IS better system than tier sets. Everyone can have them, everyone can feel a little special, and still the best traits are in the raids or mythic+ or pvp. So everyone should be happy. But most of them are lackluster passives that dont really change anything.

What stings is removal of armor looks specfic to classes. And implementation of said azerite gear in the xpac, when for base game and first patch you have to "earn" those traits, which was ofc to stretch game played. Or you have stat stick, and we know, everybody "loves" stat sticks...

[SirCowdog]

Actually, azerite armor IS better system than tier sets. Everyone can have them, everyone can feel a little special, and still the best traits are in the raids or mythic+ or pvp. So everyone should be happy. But most of them are lackluster passives that dont really change anything.

I'd have to agree with this. The main problem with sets is that they're generally only available in very specific locations(sometimes specific bosses), and classes often perform completely different once set tiers are obtained. Azerite pieces takes the idea of set tiers and proliferates them. The downside is as you described: The effects get watered down and often don't feel very powerful.

I think that this is something Blizzard has been trying to figure out with essences, Benthic gear, and now corrupted gear. It seems like they're trying to find a good balance between the modular nature of azerite traits and the lasting effects of essences/tier sets.

[Raisei]

I don't recall a strong pressure to remove tier set bonuses. I recall complaints because many of them sucked, and their power was all over the map. I recall complaints because they were being used to paper over poor class design and performance (as azerite traits are now).

The reasons for the call to remove them were different, but it was there. I still vividly remember how many people saw the announcement of their removal and were celebrating. Among those were especially the newly forming M+ only players that were happy to hear that they would no longer have to raid for the best gear.

As for the Legion artefact and legendaries - they generally fitted the specs they were made for, and worked with them, enhancing the spec in some way. I was sceptical when they first announced the weapons for Legion, as I didn't think they'd be up to making that many new advancement paths, and making them fit the spec they were for, and work properly, and also do all the lore for them. I was very pleasantly surprised - the result wasn't perfect, especially early on, but overall it was a really impressive piece of work by the devs.
The legendaries were more of a mixed bag, with some being amazing and others pretty unexciting, but there were some really fun pieces in the mix. Losing them was painful not merely because so much character power was bound up in them, but because they were overall, a lot of fun.

I liked the Artifacts, but let us not kid ourselves about how it was early on. People picked them up, started grinding and then realized they would have to put the same amount of hours into every spec on every character seperately. Druids especially were quite forked, while DHs had it easier. There were even issues for the World First Raiders, since they simply could not get their artifacts upgraded for several specs on several alts before the opening of Emerald Nightmare.

Legendaries were great, I liked them, but if we look to the beginning again, then you got a random legendary randomly after months of farming content and if you were as unlucky as me that first legendary was Sephuz' Secret in its basic form without all the later buffs. It was basically Fortuna giving you the middle finger at that time. And since the time you get a Legendary was unpredictable you could be unlucky and get it during questing when you had forgotten to switch your loot spec and suddenly you got a legendary for a spec you did not even play.

People ignore this history and claim that Legion did everything so much better, when from a purely systematic approach BFA already improved it on launch with just ONE artifact to grind for going over all specs, with an implemented catch up mechanic for alts implemented as early as day 1.

This time round the overall power of the rentals is going to end up about the same, and they are far less engaging on top of it. They don't fill in holes in rotations, as was promised, they merely buff an ability or two so the rotation works and damage is done (barely, in the case of Arcane). Many of the traits, plus all of the essences and corruptions are generic, and the corruptions with special effects are just about all about dealing damage. How do they make me feel like my healer is utterly awesome as a healer? Why isn't there a corruption that gives tanks something like a feign death effect or the like? No, we just get more damage.

I absolutely agree that the azerite system is a bit to bland. There should have been more new active abilities for each class and spec. Luckily something we get in Shadowlands. However from a QoL viewpoint, BFA has massively improved upon the systems of Legion and implemented several changes that people demanded. I find it unfair that this fact is always left out in the discussion.

But it really was a problem that started in legion, it only bore its bad fruit in bfa. Keeping things fresh is a worthwhile endeavor, but i rather they do it through content and glyphs creating alternate playstyles rather then try to add power and take it away. In both legion and bfa, the classes didn't really work well without the rentals (azerite, artifacts), meaning each time blizz had to readjust and redesign anyway, and you felt peetty bad if you didnt get the "right" powers (atleast in legion it was eventually all unlocked though). Have good base kits with fun combat, that is enough.

Now I can only go back as far as Draenor, but I remember there being some traits or passives you got specifically there that were removed too. But I see your point.
Though I have my doubts that the base classes would work out for a very long time. You need to give people some kind of progression system to keep them interested in increasing their characters power. Gear is one thing, but new abilities are just more interesting then pure number upgrades. Which is exactly why BFA's azerite traits did not work so well as they were purely number upgrades without interesting actives.
Basically BFA is a try of limiting the external powers to passives with small damage boosts, your playstyle was that of the base class kit (until essences appeared ofc) and as we have seen people found that quite boring.

Shadowlands promised some unpruning and hopefully we will see more then some.

[Lolites]

that's coming with TWO new rental systems.

rental systems are not problem, AS LONG as they are adding to class, with how legion was dependant on artefacts and such classes without them felt empty
they need to manage classes to be fine without rental powers, then they can put rentals on top and it will be good

[Schizoide]

That's not so for all specs. Which traits you have affects what talents are worthwhile for Elemental, and that affects your playstyle. They are also strong enough that not having the right trait can make a +30 ilevel piece barely worth having.

Sure. It's fair to say that even one of the passive traits can change stat weights and whatnot, changing which talents are optimal, and that can indirectly change your playstyle. They're nothing like artifact traits and legendaries in Legion though, many of which were gamechangers.

Actually, azerite armor IS better system than tier sets. Everyone can have them, everyone can feel a little special, and still the best traits are in the raids or mythic+ or pvp. So everyone should be happy. But most of them are lackluster passives that dont really change anything.

I agree that the azerite armor core design, at least as of 8.2, is better than tier sets. But the implementation isn't, because most of the traits are boring passives. And like you said, we lose the class-specific armor cosmetics.

[Aliven]

Sure. It's fair to say that even one of the passive traits can change stat weights and whatnot, changing which talents are optimal, and that can indirectly change your playstyle. They're nothing like artifact traits and legendaries in Legion though, many of which were gamechangers.


I agree that the azerite armor core design, at least as of 8.2, is better than tier sets. But the implementation isn't, because most of the traits are boring passives. And like you said, we lose the class-specific armor cosmetics.

To double on that

Azerite system fix the issue with itemization and item creep if explored better.

In mythic+ we can get couple extra affixes that would improve performance in m+
In raids we can get pieces that give little extra in raids
In pvp we can have extra traits which would be awesome in pvp (we kinda have pvp specific traits).

So basically it can be made to fix old grudge - why i need to raid to get best gear for pvp and why not just do pvp? or why do i need to spam m+ to get best pieces for raids if i only want to raid?

Ofc everything about azerite is a lost cause because that system will be abandoned without fleshing it out and tinkering with it after lackluster "effort" from blizzard to bring another Nomi - baked idea in shadowlands.

[Schizoide]

They didn't talk about it at Blizzcon, so my guess (and it is just a guess) is we'll see customizable items similar to 8.2 azerite armor continuing in Shadowlands. Perhaps they could use it for tier pieces.

[Kalisandra]

I'd have to agree with this. The main problem with sets is that they're generally only available in very specific locations(sometimes specific bosses), and classes often perform completely different once set tiers are obtained. Azerite pieces takes the idea of set tiers and proliferates them. The downside is as you described: The effects get watered down and often don't feel very powerful.

Most tier sets didn't used to have that much of an effect on rotations, though as time went on they got more an more impactful, of not stronger (though they also tended to get stronger, too). As for them only being available in specific locations, in LK and Cata you could get at least the two piece for currency from heroics and raids (these days that'd be from mythic 5-mans and LFR for low-end tier, and m+ and heroic/mythyic raids for currency that lets you buy better ilevel tier). Making access to good tier gear a reward from high-end content without it being a matter of doing that one boss over and over while still rewarding doing the high-end content is a solved problem.

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People ignore this history and claim that Legion did everything so much better, when from a purely systematic approach BFA already improved it on launch with just ONE artifact to grind for going over all specs, with an implemented catch up mechanic for alts implemented as early as day 1.

The catch-up system for the neck is the same one that the weapon had right from the start too, merely reversed so that now levels get cheaper whereas in Legion you got more AP. It was pretty rough for alts and off-specs early in Legion though, for sure. However, that problem was fixed and BfA merely retains that fix (and a bunch of new improved screw ups were added).

I absolutely agree that the azerite system is a bit to bland. There should have been more new active abilities for each class and spec. Luckily something we get in Shadowlands. However from a QoL viewpoint, BFA has massively improved upon the systems of Legion and implemented several changes that people demanded. I find it unfair that this fact is always left out in the discussion.

I don't find a whole lot of improved QoL over Legion.

Now I can only go back as far as Draenor, but I remember there being some traits or passives you got specifically there that were removed too. But I see your point.
Though I have my doubts that the base classes would work out for a very long time. You need to give people some kind of progression system to keep them interested in increasing their characters power. Gear is one thing, but new abilities are just more interesting then pure number upgrades. Which is exactly why BFA's azerite traits did not work so well as they were purely number upgrades without interesting actives.
Basically BFA is a try of limiting the external powers to passives with small damage boosts, your playstyle was that of the base class kit (until essences appeared ofc) and as we have seen people found that quite boring.

And why is it boring? Because the base class kits were so sparse, being the result of several expansions of 'trimming' and losing a bunch of stuff when the weapons went as well. Many specs were just a skeleton, barely functional enough to level with, and even now the azerite traits don't actually fix that, merely disguise it with band-aids made of big numbers.

Shadowlands promised some unpruning and hopefully we will see more then some.

I really hope they are serious about unpruning.