if you have to call one of these characters, a mary sue, which one would it be??

[Mehrunes]

I believe it was in a QA answer compile that I’m pretty sure I’ve seen linked on here before but I don’t actually know how to find them and have failed to just now so you can treat it as speculation.

It was either a Twitter comment or a Reddit one (or a Reddit thread about a Twitter comment). Someone dag it up ~2 months ago.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It was either a Twitter comment or a Reddit one (or a Reddit thread about a Twitter comment). Someone dag it up ~2 months ago.

Ah that would explain why it’s a pain to find.

[Mehrunes]

I wouldn’t count people drawing weapons on a member of the council of six while defending a traitor as innocents being slaughtered but if you want to go ahead.

They were doing their job of defending a Council member from a hostile. A hostile that just returned to Dalaran after violating its neutrality by aiding Darnassus against the Horde. Which Jaina didn't even hide. Just the opposite, she openly proclaimed to the Alliance player aiding her that she was personally capturing, wounding or killing Horde soldiers (depending on what her traps did). Which made Jaina the traitor there. A traitor that committed their treason before the Bell was even stolen.

Not that she had any evidence of Aethas being a traitor anyway. Because she didn't even have definite proof of Sunreavers' involvement in the theft. All she had was a portal left by a non-Sunreaver Blood Elf from Reliquary that connected to the Dalaran portal network. With the Dalaran portal to Darnassus being located in the Silver Covenant side of the city. Nor did she actually have any authority to make any demands to Aethas on her own given how Dalaran is ruled by the Council of Six, with its leader having so little individual power they don't even have a tie-breaker vote.

[Kyphael]

Did you misspell Saurfang?

Saurfang was second best in my opinion. He was definitely the main protagonist. However, he had some dubious writing here and there, but finished off strong with Old Soldier and the final cinematic, completing a great overall arc with just a couple of weak points in his story early on.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They were doing their job of defending a Council member from a hostile. A hostile that just returned to Dalaran after violating its neutrality by aiding Darnassus against the Horde. Which Jaina didn't even hide. Just the opposite, she openly proclaimed to the Alliance player aiding her that she was personally capturing, wounding or killing Horde soldiers (depending on what her traps did). Which made Jaina the traitor there. A traitor that committed their treason before the Bell was even stolen.

Not that she had any evidence of Aethas being a traitor anyway. Because she didn't even have definite proof of Sunreavers' involvement in the theft. All she had was a portal left by a non-Sunreaver Blood Elf from Reliquary that connected to the Dalaran portal network. With the Dalaran portal to Darnassus being located in the Silver Covenant side of the city. Nor did she actually have any authority to make any demands to Aethas on her own given how Dalaran is ruled by the Council of Six, with its leader having so little individual power they don't even have a tie-breaker vote.

Mabye that’s the way it should work but no one ever brings any of that up in the lore (that I remember) so it’s a rather mute point either way.

[TheRevenantHero]

Jiana uses the focusing iris to make the tidal wave it’s not something she can do on her own and she never went around slaughtering blood elf blizzard has said she only killed those who fought back and other wise teleported all others away.

She murdered anyone who fought back when she was attempting to UNLAWFULLY imprison them. You also did a quest for her that involved just straight up murdering belves in Dalaran.

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*Jaina can kill Gorak Tul with little effort.* - The players kill Gorak Tul, and apparently he's not even really dead

*She can summon the entire Kul Tiran fleet.* - That's the pendant, not her - any Lord Admiral could do that.

*She can make massive galleons fucking fly* - Of all the magic in WoW, making one ship fly is too much for you?

*She can conjure up a tidal wave large enough to obliterate Orgrimmar.* - Focusing Iris, again, many other characters would be capable of the same thing

*She is all powerful somehow as a human* In game lore states that being a young race, humans prove highly versatile. She's a one in a million fluke, even then - she's not even the most powerful human mage

*She also is never considered to have ever really done anything wrong ever.* - Arthas, Purge of Dalaran, Not helping in the Legion invasion

*She fucking went on a killing spree of blood elves and the the Alliance just shrugged, despite innocent people getting slaughtered.* - Varian came down hard on her, she later lost leadership of the Kirin Tor

Please don't call out other people for not knowing stuff when you don't even know the basic lore of the character you're talking about lmfao

Gorak Tul is 100% dead.

If any Lord Admiral can do it, why didn't her mom do it long before Jaina showed up? Suddenly it couldn't be done until Jaina showed up, marking her as a Mary Sue.

It's not the flying ship portion that makes her a Mary Sue. It's the fact she does it 100% ALONE.

Ok fine, I'll give you the focusing iris one because I forgot about it.

She is regarded as the most powerful living human spellcaster.

I'm aware of the things she's done. What I'm saying is those things aren't considered to be bad. Just that she was "misunderstood" or whatever.

She didn't lose leadership. She threw a bitch fit and left because the Kirin Tor disagreed with her. They didn't actually strip her of her rank.

[BeepBoo]

Jaina: Long training stint at most powerful mage academy in azeroth. Long heritage of powerful people in her family. Demonstrated and recognizable skill. 404, mary sue not found.

Sylvanas: Long history as BAMF windrunner before getting murdered. Any big "power up" she gets granted by some outside source that has the capability of giving it. 404, mary sue not found.

Sylvanas is by far the more annoying one, and the more inconsistently written one. Struggling to block saurfang's shots, getting sliced in the face, only to then turn around and act like they're nothing while you wail on him is fucking garbage. Somehow being able to freely wade into the frozen throne ALONE without getting swarmed by the scourge and then having a nice cordial fight 1v1 with Arthas2.0 while the rest of his minions stand there looking dumb is also incredibly stupid.

Still, not what I'd call a mary sue.

[Highelf]

She murdered anyone who fought back when she was attempting to UNLAWFULLY imprison them. You also did a quest for her that involved just straight up murdering belves in Dalaran.

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Gorak Tul is 100% dead.

If any Lord Admiral can do it, why didn't her mom do it long before Jaina showed up? Suddenly it couldn't be done until Jaina showed up, marking her as a Mary Sue.

It's not the flying ship portion that makes her a Mary Sue. It's the fact she does it 100% ALONE.

Ok fine, I'll give you the focusing iris one because I forgot about it.

She is regarded as the most powerful living human spellcaster.

I'm aware of the things she's done. What I'm saying is those things aren't considered to be bad. Just that she was "misunderstood" or whatever.

She didn't lose leadership. She threw a bitch fit and left because the Kirin Tor disagreed with her. They didn't actually strip her of her rank.

I'd still put khadgar ahead of jaina imo.

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She murdered anyone who fought back when she was attempting to UNLAWFULLY imprison them. You also did a quest for her that involved just straight up murdering belves in Dalaran.

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Gorak Tul is 100% dead.

If any Lord Admiral can do it, why didn't her mom do it long before Jaina showed up? Suddenly it couldn't be done until Jaina showed up, marking her as a Mary Sue.

It's not the flying ship portion that makes her a Mary Sue. It's the fact she does it 100% ALONE.

Ok fine, I'll give you the focusing iris one because I forgot about it.

She is regarded as the most powerful living human spellcaster.

I'm aware of the things she's done. What I'm saying is those things aren't considered to be bad. Just that she was "misunderstood" or whatever.

She didn't lose leadership. She threw a bitch fit and left because the Kirin Tor disagreed with her. They didn't actually strip her of her rank.

The way I interpreted summoning the fleet is that Jaina was assisted by her powers and I think he mom just didn't have a clear head.

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How?




Aethas' guards apparently killed themselves.




Less than pure according to whom in-story? Because he has purity detection system in his bones. If Anduin was to do something impure as far as the story is concerned we'd learn about it because he'd moan about his bone ache.

Also:
- Anduin even surviving Lordaeron thanks to his fifty layers of plot armor was an achievement;
- Saurfang immediately surrendered at Lordaeron after a chat, with no fighting, let alone him incapacitating anyone;
- Anduin got super powers out of his bout with Garrosh;
- Tyrande is a sole exception and is painted as blatantly wrong over her decision even by her adoptive daughter.

None of your list rebukes anything he said. Literally none of it. Nor does it address it at all. I get the feeling you just like to debate even when there's no debate in sight.

[tangers58]

None because Mary Sue is currently a term used by any idiot to describe any character they don't like, completely ignoring its actual meaning

[Lorgar Aurelian]

She murdered anyone who fought back when she was attempting to UNLAWFULLY imprison them. You also did a quest for her that involved just straight up murdering belves in Dalaran.

Given that dalaran didn’t do in thing in response it’s safe to assume they didn’t find it all that unlawful, Mabye they should have responded but they didn’t.

Jiana also didn’t give you any quest to murder elfs she tells you to follow what’s her face high elf and even then all the npcs are hostile sure that could have just been for gameplay reasons but we can’t know one way or another.

[Orby]

Mary Sue is becoming the new most over used and misused word to date when it comes to media. I am pretty sure that the people using this havent even done the work needed to understand what Mary Sue is, what it derived from and what it attains into context... I am sure I'll get the same three answers, She's too powerful, she's the writers pet, and she is cliche... If you think that its just about that then you know nothing.

Neither Jaina or Sylvanas are Mary Sue's, in no way shape of form. Now if you want to say they are badly written thats another debate that can have legs to stand on, but that doesn't belong in the same discussion as something as this.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Sylvanas is by far the more annoying one, and the more inconsistently written one. Struggling to block saurfang's shots, getting sliced in the face, only to then turn around and act like they're nothing while you wail on him is fucking garbage. Somehow being able to freely wade into the frozen throne ALONE without getting swarmed by the scourge and then having a nice cordial fight 1v1 with Arthas2.0 while the rest of his minions stand there looking dumb is also incredibly stupid.

Still, not what I'd call a mary sue.

Bolvar wasn’t the arthas 2.0 he was like 0.5 at best with a huge chuck of souls being gone without froustmourn and undead breaking away from him because he was so much weaker.

[Mehrunes]

Mabye that’s the way it should work but no one ever brings any of that up in the lore (that I remember) so it’s a rather mute point either way.

It's not like Jaina left them much wiggle room there (speaking of the Council here, not the guards, since I'm assuming so are you). She single-handedly (well, with a slight help from Stormwind since despite Varian's later objections in regards to the whole thing he still helped her out) put Dalaran on collision course with Horde led by Garrosh who wouldn't just go down to negotiate with a bunch of humans telling him it was her doing since by that point he was already on world-conquest mode. But we already have an example of how Dalaran deals with traitorous Council members in Kel'thuzad and even then Antonidas wasn't acting alone but with two other members of the Council, making it a majority (neither was he using Vereesa's private militia and Stormwind's soldiers rather than Kirin Tor resources to deal with the issue).

None of your list rebukes anything he said. Literally none of it. Nor does it address it at all. I get the feeling you just like to debate even when there's no debate in sight.

Ah, yes, pointing out how Saurfang went down after a chat totally doesn't rebuke a claim about how he incapacitated Anduin

She is regarded as the most powerful living human spellcaster.

Technically she has been stated to be the strongest human sorceress. So it's narrowed down to race, sex and a specific type of spellcaster.

[Highelf]

It's not like Jaina left them much wiggle room there (speaking of the Council here, not the guards, since I'm assuming so are you). She single-handedly (well, with a slight help from Stormwind since despite Varian's later objections in regards to the whole thing he still helped her out) put Dalaran on collision course with Horde led by Garrosh who wouldn't just go down to negotiate with a bunch of humans telling him it was her doing since by that point he was already on world-conquest mode. But we already have an example of how Dalaran deals with traitorous Council members in Kel'thuzad and even then Antonidas wasn't acting alone but with two other members of the Council, making it a majority (neither was he using Vereesa's private militia and Stormwind's soldiers rather than Kirin Tor resources to deal with the issue).




Ah, yes, pointing out how Saurfang went down after a chat totally doesn't rebuke a claim about how he incapacitated Anduin




Technically she has been stated to be the strongest human sorceress. So it's narrowed down to race, sex and a specific type of spellcaster.

Goal posts moved confirmed.

[BeepBoo]

Bolvar wasn’t the arthas 2.0 he was like 0.5 at best with a huge chuck of souls being gone without froustmourn and undead breaking away from him because he was so much weaker.

Look my feelings are not up for debate and your attempt to use reasoning in the context of the game "well this is how I think something works based on how things worked in other parts of the game!" instead of the only thing I'll accept as actual evidence (which is being shown or told so in a direct manner by an official blizzard person themselves, as opposed to having to infer or make assumptions as you are) means you should just stop now.

Basically my head canon > actual canon > your head canon and that isn't changing. Ever. So don't bother engaging with me in debate about such topics, because it's a waste of time.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's not like Jaina left them much wiggle room there (speaking of the Council here, not the guards, since I'm assuming so are you). She single-handedly (well, with a slight help from Stormwind since despite Varian's later objections in regards to the whole thing he still helped her out) put Dalaran on collision course with Horde led by Garrosh who wouldn't just go down to negotiate with a bunch of humans telling him it was her doing since by that point he was already on world-conquest mode. But we already have an example of how Dalaran deals with traitorous Council members in Kel'thuzad and even then Antonidas wasn't acting alone but with two other members of the Council, making it a majority (neither was he using Vereesa's private militia and Stormwind's soldiers rather than Kirin Tor resources to deal with the issue).

All we can really do is speculate until the next chronicles comes out, Mabye they gave her a pat on the back and a metal Mabye they locked her up for like a day and reviewed what she did before letting her out.

There’s no way to know how they felt about it or reacted to it until we get more info. This is really something they should have sorted out with war crimes or something the lazy sods.

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Look my feelings are not up for debate and your attempt to use reasoning in the context of the game "well this is how I think something works based on how things worked in other parts of the game!" instead of the only thing I'll accept as actual evidence (which is being shown or told so in a direct manner by an official blizzard person themselves, as opposed to having to infer or make assumptions as you are) means you should just stop now.

Basically my head canon > actual canon > your head canon and that isn't changing. Ever. So don't bother engaging with me in debate about such topics, because it's a waste of time.

What is it you count as a direct blizzard person? If chronicles counts then that tells us the lichking’s power is depended on how much souls/undead he has bound and that the metric ton of souls in froustmourn were freed and that many of the stronger undead were able to break free.

If it’s only like a blue post or tweet then I have no idea if any one has posted any thing about it so I’d leave you to your head canon.

[VinceVega]

None of either. I don't think either is a mary sue is overpowered or without fault... sorry but that is a stupid poll.

Why is stuff like this which does nothing but to shit on characters without any base not banned/closed.
Seriously. No one runs around and calls Khadgar a mary sue or wrathion... it is always the female chars who get some weird hate for no real reason

[Lorde Snow]

If you really have to, not saying you do, but if you have to call one of them mary sue, which one would it be??

Sylvanas of course, there's really any doubt?

[TheRevenantHero]

- We don't know that, but that's besides the point, we dealt with him - not Jaina

- Who knows - but we know Daelin did the same thing and he was just a guy

- But it's not that powerful a magic, Azshara literally held the sea open and Jaina made a boat fly

- Khadgar, Medhiv both are alive and active, Medhiv is certainly more powerful, and Khadgar is debatable but he's more experienced and was going to be the next guardian so, my money is on him

- She left the Kirin Tor because they would not follow her, that again proves she's not a mary sue

Gorak Tul has been confirmed to be dead by the devs.

Daelin absolutely did not caused a massive galleon to fly by himself.

Khadgar is empowered by Atiesh and he is empowered by Karazhan. Medivh isn't just a normal human and has absolutely had aid from much more powerful entities like Sargeras.

She left the Kirin Tor because they wouldn't let her ruthlessly murder Horde as much as she wanted.

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Given that dalaran didn’t do in thing in response it’s safe to assume they didn’t find it all that unlawful, Mabye they should have responded but they didn’t.

Jiana also didn’t give you any quest to murder elfs she tells you to follow what’s her face high elf and even then all the npcs are hostile sure that could have just been for gameplay reasons but we can’t know one way or another.

She walked around the city during the questline literally killing blood elf npcs that were running in fear. Also, it eventually ended because the Council stepped in and told her to knock it the fuck off.

[Khaza-R]

Neither

Thrall, and Rhonin are the only Mary Sues to appear in WoW.