Robert Pattinson to take over for Ben Affleck as Batman

[Egomaniac]

Are we gonna go that way? Ok....

Capitan America in E616 is ,by definition, peak human. That's the very concept of the character: oppose the "just human" concept to the Nietzche, borrowed by the Nazis ,concept of superhuman. As fast as a human can be, as strong as a human can be... a perfect human ( and just that) with perfect genetics and perfect training.That's the essence of the character.

Mockingbird regained powers as I already stated: there's rectcons. She was an Avenger and Superhero before that.

Black Widow, Hawkeye and Punisher are not heros....we will come back at this later.

Elektra has superpowers ( low order telepathy) after being resurrected by The Hand ( again a retcon).

So...in the end what you are telling me is a personal perspective,right? I mean:

1. The definition of superheo is clear.
2. Everyone considers Black Widow or Hawkeye a superhero.

Because if that's it "I don't consider Hawkeye a superhero because he does not have powers" I'm fine with it but it's important to understand the rest of the world and the dictionary disagrees wich is not a bad thing: I consider The Scarlet Pimpernel the first superhero ever ( 1905) and there's people who agree and people who disagree.

Captain America is more than peak human. His body eliminates the buildup of lactic acid in his muscles. He can run a mile in just over a minute. He has a mild healing factor. His mind has been enhanced with a didactic and eidetic memory.

From Ed Brubaker...a writer than worked on Captain America for 8 years:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profi...d-human/85497/

"I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to."

Here's some comic pages that back up what I'm saying

His mind:
https://i.imgur.com/asJyONT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1ypLbQb.jpg

His body:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...1030-dared.jpg
The person that runs by Matt is Captain America.

A mile in just over a minute:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...579f8eca6.webp

Bullet wounds heal in hours, knife wounds in minutes, resistance to diseases:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...f01fc24147c97a

[PrimiOne]

well presented arguments

Did we had this dicussion before? I have a vague idea that we had it or maybe it was someone else.

The Marvel universe is not a coherent universe as we know it so there's this phenomenon that happens in every character: after decades (literally) of impossible feats made by a "mere" human writters feels the need to make the character consistent with the background and retcon his/her skills.

Ed ( in the text you quoted) is explicitly saying he retconned Steve for the same reasons exposed before("He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete").

Let's see my arguments:

1.Both Wikipedia and the Marvel Wikia states that Captain America has "no superhuman powers".
2.The official Marvel power grid states a strenght rating of 3 "Peak human" (lift up to 800 lbs) and a speed of 2 "Normal". Both ratings are one point bwlow "superhuman" classification.
3. He is not considered superhuman because if you were to analyse his DNA, you would find nothing out of the ordinary; no mutant genome, nor any trace of extensive mutagenic effects similar to the Fantastic Four or the Hulk. The Super-Soldier Serum altered his body by bringing out the best human genome options possible (and the continued regeneration of the serum over time.)
4.He is considered NOT Superhuman because he does not have any significant abilities outside of the best a human(any particular well-trained, Olympic-level athlete).
5. Joe Simon has always stated he aimed at creating a SOLDIER not superman.

So let's put it this way: Steve is not (canonically) considered a superhuman in the Marvel Universe (E616) but would be considered one in ours.
What the fick does this mean? It means there's another "humans" that have done those impossible feats in the Marvel universe and therefore the limit of what one human can do varies from our universe and E616 ( one good example is Frank Castle: in so many times I can't count anumore of he got hurt way beyond what a human can survive and he , not just don't die but keep fighting)

But the main thing here is if we go to the very essence of the character you know that Steve is precisely the line that divides human from superhuman( he is often quoted as that) so if you are telling me that some authors sometimes has choosen to cross the line I would say you are totally right but that's not the essence of the characters: a human figthing gods.

Let's look at the official handbook and the powers description ( that yeah,that's what I'm saying ...has been retconned):



This it how marvel works "His reaction times are ten times faster than a normal man's" and "possesd no superhuman powers"....in the same paragraph.Fuck me....wouldn't it be a superpower then? Lol

So I'm gonna ask you one question: those panels you linked...they got hold in your memory maybe because they shocked you that Steve was depicted as a superhuman?

For everything else good talk and sorry for the derail ( this is about Pattison and we are here talking about Cpt. America).

[Soulwind]

For most people in this world, a fictional vigilante who wears a costume is a superhero. Regardless of the specifics. It's a common name for that kind of character.

But for the sake of semantics, and putting aside arguments such as how their strength, resistance or intelligence compares to real humans, which would make most fictional characters superheroes, there's another angle to view this from: They're heroes in universes in which superpowers exist. Which means that inevitably, Batman, Captain America or Punisher will often fight with or against superhuman characters, and that would also differentiate them from heroes in universes in which all characters are human. That could also be a reason to consider them superheroes.

[Rotted]

Ah, the classic "hurr durr no u!" argument.

I can see that there is absolutely no point trying to continue this, you don't want to discuss, you want to pontificate.

up to you if you want to be petty tbh, I just find it completely stupidity to tell someone not to make an assumption on a subject. Literally wouldn't get anywhere if no one did

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The one thing that detracts me from DC more than Marvel is this constant need to retell origin stories. Like every couple batman movies we have to go over Bruce's parents dying. Or how he trained for combat. Superman does it a lot too.

I really hope they can move beyond it.

[Redwyrm]

The one thing that detracts me from DC more than Marvel is this constant need to retell origin stories. Like every couple batman movies we have to go over Bruce's parents dying. Or how he trained for combat. Superman does it a lot too.

I really hope they can move beyond it.

One of the reasons for that may be that both Superman and Batman have had the most actors play those particular roles than any other superhero (outside of Spider-man but that's Sony and not Marvel).

It's hard to have a ongoing storyline with movie to movie consequences when you main actor keeps changing. The only time this didn't happen was the Christopher Reeve run for Superman, and the Keaton/Bale runs for Batman. And those series of movies could be argued to be the pinnacle of DC's attempts for just that reason (consistency).

[s_bushido]

It's hard to have a ongoing storyline with movie to movie consequences when you main actor keeps changing.

I think it's more that studios are just cowards when it comes to trusting that maybe the audience is familiar with the origin stories of the most popular superheroes in the world...

Ever since I saw it, I've wanted superhero movies to be more like Dredd. Get in, kick ass, get out. No long drawn-out origins, no "end of the world" or cosmic stakes bullshit, no laser beams in the sky, just fun self-contained stories that trust the audience to be willing to go along for the ride. Hell, Batman would be the absolute perfect character to do that with, too. But they're not going to. They're going to waste time showing us the Wayne's getting shot, yet again, and there's nothing we can do about it...

[Highelf]

Shame, I really liked Ben Affleck as Batman. He was giant and intimidating, brooding yet compassionate even if "MAAARTHAAAAAAAAAA"-scene was pure cringe.

I also love Henry Cavill as Superman, best one to date, but guess he too will be replaced in the shitshow that is DC's cinematic universe...

Not judging Pattionson however, he's playing a younger Batman + he's a damned good actor when not given shite material such as Twilight... I still remember spitting some coke cherry when he stepped into the sunlight and sparkled...

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Which one was it that had nipples though...

As long as they don't go back to that one, I'll be OK.

The Martha scene was epic imo.

[segara82]

The Martha scene was epic imo.

Yep, by no means worse than constantly yelling 'Because you're my friend, Bucky' at the brainwashed guy.

[Polyxo]

Yep, by no means worse than constantly yelling 'Because you're my friend, Bucky' at the brainwashed guy.

I think both scenes are lame on paper, but the actors sell them well enough in the film that I thought they were both fine.

[Volatilis]

Except Batman/Supermans relationship is far more interesting and better done in a few animated tv episodes like how they have extremely different methods of getting the job done and view on life in general but have respect for each other. And develop a bromance after initially being threatened by each other.

than a feature length film where the big reveal/emotional moment is that they share their mothers name.

Those movies dont care about the characters they just want to sell the name.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

One of the reasons for that may be that both Superman and Batman have had the most actors play those particular roles than any other superhero (outside of Spider-man but that's Sony and not Marvel).

It's hard to have a ongoing storyline with movie to movie consequences when you main actor keeps changing. The only time this didn't happen was the Christopher Reeve run for Superman, and the Keaton/Bale runs for Batman. And those series of movies could be argued to be the pinnacle of DC's attempts for just that reason (consistency).

I get the reason. But I don't go though James Bonds training to be an agent.. ever.. but when they change actors I don't have to reset my whole primous of the movies. I think at this point you just got to roll with it. Even though I would CHOOSE to keep the same ones.. but..

At this point I think people understand Bruce's saw is parents get wacked and it wacked him out to become Batman. That Superman is an alien that has super powers and that for some reason that made it rough growing up.

Just make Batman and Superman movies that don't spend half the movie isn't the origin story.

[s_bushido]

Yep, by no means worse than constantly yelling 'Because you're my friend, Bucky' at the brainwashed guy.

It isn't? They were friends. They grew up together like brothers, so of course Cap being the person he was, he wasn't just going to abandon him/kill him when he thought there was a chance he could be snapped out of it.

But Batman going from "this guy is a threat to humanity great enough that I need to murder him the first chance I get" to saying "a friend of your son's" in 2 minutes flat...just because their mothers happened to have the same name? So fucking stupid.

[Skizzit]

The one thing that detracts me from DC more than Marvel is this constant need to retell origin stories. Like every couple batman movies we have to go over Bruce's parents dying. Or how he trained for combat. Superman does it a lot too.

I really hope they can move beyond it.

I think it is because DC character's origins, especially Superman and Batman are far more important to who the characters are than most Marvel characters. The exception to that is Spider-Man and I really must applaud Marvel for showing major restraint to not show the Uncle Ben death scene again with the latest version of that character.

Yep, by no means worse than constantly yelling 'Because you're my friend, Bucky' at the brainwashed guy.

Except that makes more sense because Cap and Bucky have an existing relationship and is trying to get through to his friend. Supes and Batman don't know each other at all and it makes zero sense for Superman to say that at that time. Batman has no clue who Martha would be and Superman has no reason to believe the name would mean anything to him. He would maybe say "save my mom" but not "save Martha."

[Soulwind]

But Batman going from "this guy is a threat to humanity great enough that I need to murder him the first chance I get" to saying "a friend of your son's" in 2 minutes flat...just because their mothers happened to have the same name? So fucking stupid.

It's not that out of character, but the movie does a terrible job at building it up. The idea is that an old and ruthless Batman had forgotten the only thing that allowed him to walk the line between crime and justice. He's shown killing people left and right, but the movie doesn't exactly show that as a bad thing or a fall from grace.

The audience has to fill in a lot of gaps. You have to imagine him being righteous for many years and eventually breaking down. You have to imagine him turning his pain into hatred. And you have to imagine that hearing the name Martha at such an intense moment triggers his memories and makes him realize that his judgement has been clouded for some time.

So while I will certainly agree that a good script shouldn't rely on you coming up with half of the story, the events aren't as random as many make them seem.

People like to blame Ben Affleck for playing a Batman that "doesn't behave like Batman", but I think he played the character correctly for what the movie wanted out of him. Had they made one or two solo movies first to show him becoming a criminal, his role in BvS would have had a much better reception, in my opinion.

[Gallahadd]

The audience has to fill in a lot of gaps. You have to imagine him being righteous for many years and eventually breaking down. You have to imagine him turning his pain into hatred. And you have to imagine that hearing the name Martha at such an intense moment triggers his memories and makes him realize that his judgement has been clouded for some time.

I'm sorry, but if you HAVE to imagine all that, for the scene to work... Then the scene doesn't work.

I'm fine with some subtext, but this is more like a sub NOVEL.

I don't hate BvS as much as many seem to, but that scene just made me laugh, and I can't understand how anyone can take it seriously.

[s_bushido]

It's not that out of character, but the movie does a terrible job at building it up.

I can agree with what you said...but I'm still not willing to give them much of the benefit of the doubt about that movie. They could have made a pretty compelling story like you described, but they instead chose to just go with Justice League Lite, instead. Skipping over anything that could have been interesting about the conflict between those two and leaving us with the laughable "WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!!!" scene that wasn't earned in the slightest.

Who calls their mom by her first name in a moment of distress, anyway?

[Soulwind]

I'm sorry, but if you HAVE to imagine all that, for the scene to work... Then the scene doesn't work.

I'm fine with some subtext, but this is more like a sub NOVEL.

I don't hate BvS as much as many seem to, but that scene just made me laugh, and I can't understand how anyone can take it seriously.

The whole movie just seems like it was the seventh movie of a proper cinematic universe. It just assumes the audience knows not only the background of the characters from the comics, but specifically the background of the movie versions, which is never shown.

[Gallahadd]

The whole movie just seems like it was the seventh movie of a proper cinematic universe. It just assumes the audience knows not only the background of the characters from the comics, but specifically the background of the movie versions, which is never shown.

Pretty much, yeah. It would be like releasing Civil War before Winter Soldier or Avengers Assemble, and expecting anyone to know or care who Bucky was...

[rogueMatthias]

I'm sorry, but if you HAVE to imagine all that, for the scene to work... Then the scene doesn't work.

I'm fine with some subtext, but this is more like a sub NOVEL.

I don't hate BvS as much as many seem to, but that scene just made me laugh, and I can't understand how anyone can take it seriously.

The funny part is that if he just said "please.. save my mother" that could have humanised him in an orphaned Batman's eyes rather than needing the cheesy Martha coincidence.

Really wasn't a fan of murdery Batman. I know he's killed in other Batfilms but it was getting pretty gratuitous in BVS. I also felt through Justice League that he just seemed sad and old. It felt more like Seth Rogans Green Hornet, struggling out of breath or winded. It was cringey just watching him try and compete with the others.

As for the new Batman, some better shots of the whole costume are out on Twitter today. Costume looks ok, the cowl looks awful though and has bug eyes that make it look more like the Tick cartoon.

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Yep, by no means worse than constantly yelling 'Because you're my friend, Bucky' at the brainwashed guy.

I really liked that end of Winter Soldier. Cap was willing to die to save his friend. With the hellicarier crashing out of the sky and Bucky beating him, the only thing he had left was the hope that he could still get through to him and snap him out of it before he killed him. You'd had the relationship built up already though so it all paid off.