Mega-Thread: Democratic 2020 Primaries

[cubby]

Your moral opinion of the situation is irrelevant, as is mine. The fact is that the other candidates have chosen a path of insulting, belittling and shaming voters, none of which is going to drive those voters to vote, no matter what your moral opinion of that is.

But don't you see that Bernie Bros have done the same thing? That's they hypocrisy. And you're not even ready to see it, much less acknowledge it. You're trying to claim that Bernie is the only candidate that riding some moral high ground, and he's NOT. Objectively.

[NineSpine]

Meh, Bernie has already demonstrated what kind of leader he is over 5 years. Pretending he will change is like people saying that congress and judges will teach Trump how to act more presidential.

I mean when the DNC gave Bernie concessions for the Unity council. He sends bomb throwers that pushed for more caucuses.

Or when he pushed for Ellison to be DNC chair, and got deputy chair instead. For people not paying attention to Ellison recently. He's making Perez look awesome.

Bernie's PAC and now extinct Sanders Foundation have pretty shady leadership.

These are people that Bernie gets to pick. His picks make him look Trumpian. He prefer loyalist hacks instead of policy and organizational experts.

Look at his loyalists on this thread, or moreso over the past 5 years. They've personalized their victimhood at the hands of the DNC to such aburd levels. There's no reasoning with them.

Looking forward to news of Bernie Campaign and their 500+ FEC violations. Thats alot! Not reporting waay too many excessive donations.

It's just willfully bad management at this point.

Many words, yet nothing of value. Meaningless drivel.

[Thepersona]

Oh Obama yes the guy who ran as a progressive not a centrist? or do you mean the guy who governed as a centrist and lead democrats to the biggest losses on the states and local level in generations? that Obama? I am sorry but America does not like centrism they give it lip service but we always go for radical changes the unhappier the electorate is the bigger the swing.

Yup. And as the recession looms, its becoming more possible that Trump kicks the bucket this time.

[NineSpine]

But don't you see that Bernie Bros have done the same thing? That's they hypocrisy. And you're not even ready to see it, much less acknowledge it. You're trying to claim that Bernie is the only candidate that riding some moral high ground, and he's NOT. Objectively.

It's not that I don't see it. It's that it doesn't fucking matter. You can't guilt shame your way into electoral wins by telling people you refuse to do a damn thing for them and then insulting them if they don't appreciate that. It's madness to think otherwise.

[cubby]

It's not that I don't see it. It's that it doesn't fucking matter. You can't guilt shame your way into electoral wins by telling people you refuse to do a damn thing for them and then insulting them if they don't appreciate that. It's madness to think otherwise.

It does matter. That's what you're not seeing. Their perceptions of individual candidates MUST be secondary to the need of defeating Trump. It's madness to think otherwise.

[NineSpine]

But don't you see that Bernie Bros have done the same thing? That's they hypocrisy. And you're not even ready to see it, much less acknowledge it. You're trying to claim that Bernie is the only candidate that riding some moral high ground, and he's NOT. Objectively.

Bottom line: It doesn't matter whether its the right thing to vote for whoever the democratic nominee is. Moralize in one hand and shit in the other.

What's right doesn't matter. What wins elections is what matters, and saying "Fuck you" to voters doesn't win elections.

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It does matter. That's what you're not seeing. Their perceptions of individual candidates MUST be secondary to the need of defeating Trump. It's madness to think otherwise.

Dude, your moral opinion of peoples' voting habits
DOES
NOT
MATTER

It is meaningless.
It is nonsense.
It has no impact on the real world.
It is synapses in your brain and nothing else.
It does not win elections.
It does not change minds.
It does nothing productive.
It is garbage.
It is a tree falling in the forest and nobody hearing it.
It. Does. Not. Matter.

[Skroe]

How about this?

C) Bernie Sanders wins the election in spite of all the teeth gnashing and democrats wins a majority in both houses of congress giving him a tremendous deal of political capital. I am not sure why you didn't put that future in there since we've lived through a version of it with Trump.

After reading what you write, I legitimately think you don't understand US politics one bit.

First and foremost the chances of Democrats winning control of the Senate this year are basically nil. The absolute best they can do is likely 49-51, by winning in North Carolina. I went over this two days ago. Most likely they either win the Arizona seat and are in the minority 52-48 (where they were in 2016) or lose Arizona, trade seats between Alabama and Colorado, and are 53-47... exactly where they are today.

The places Democrats need to win in order to win the Senate - Arizona, Maine, North Carolina, Alabama, Arizona, Colorado - are hindered, not helped, but a progressive candidate. It's unlikey a progressive candidate wins North Carolina for instance. A moderate might. You honestly are so politically in la-la land you think voters would vote for Trump at the top of the ticket, and then a Centrist Democrat Senator there? Not going to happen. This is going to be a straight red or straight blue ticket election for swing state people, and progressives are a DISADVANTAGE in the above locations.

So no. No senate.

Secondly, if miraculously Democrats did hold the Senate, President Sanders would face a House and Senate utterly hostile to him. There are not even 150 votes in the House for M4A. And there aren't even 30 votes in the Senate for it. Probably less. And single payer? About the same.

The Democratic majority in the House is owed to moderates, not progressives. Moderates who will be nervous about losing their seats in 2022. There is no chance they take up a M4A bill. Especially since, due to how the Senate works, Mitch McConnell, if he is majority leader, would just not take up the bill at all. If he is minority leader, would make sure that it never gets the 60 votes needed to end the fillibuster. Either way, M4A never happens.

"Tremendous Poltiical Capital", the way you use it, is a nice way of saying "I hope". Mitch McConnell walks the earth. He doesn't give a crap about niceties like that and the bully pulpit won't work for President Sanders, especially since Congressional and Senate Democrats will be far cooler to Sanders than Republicans have been to Trump. That is the key difference. Democrats engage in more coalition-style politics. Republicans are more ideologically regular. Furthermore Democrats don't have a man like Mitch McConnell to keep them in a party line.

So no, your option (C) doesn't exist. It fails because retaking the Senate is very unlikely. It fails because even if you did, you won't have near 60 votes. It fails because House Democrats, which owe their majority to centrist and conservative Democrats, would be afraid of getting wiped out in 2022 in their districts by being too close to Bernie. So nothing comes up for a vote on the Bernie Sanders agenda.

But he'll sign 4x $800 billion defense bills because there _is_ a broad congressional consensus on that.

Your passion does not supersede political realities. You are a slave them them. And no amount of Bernie-hand-wavy rhetoric will free you from it.

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Oh Obama yes the guy who ran as a progressive not a centrist? or do you mean the guy who governed as a centrist and lead democrats to the biggest losses on the states and local level in generations? that Obama? I am sorry but America does not like centrism they give it lip service but we always go for radical changes the unhappier the electorate is the bigger the swing.

Obama ran in the 2008 primary as a progressive, but in the 2008 General Election as a Clintonite Centrist. And governed as a centrist. And was re-elected as a centrist. Democrats were wiped out at the state level after 2008 because the Obama Campaign set up their own parallel structure - Organizing for America - that did not coordinate with the DNC and state Democratic Parties. It sucked away money and man power.

Nah. The voting patterns are quite clear. And if anything America is a good deal conservative than centrists, not more progressive. The 2018 election proved that. Democrats have their house majority because of Conservative and Centrist Democrats winning in Trump-winning districts, not progressives. The end.

I think you just want political validation and will say anything to achieve that. You want this to be a different country than it is. Sorry. It's not. You're in the distinct political minority.

Looking forward to seeing how a progressive wins North Carolina or Wisconsin in this election and economic climate.

Let me know what it's like at the bottom of Davy Jones' locker.

[NineSpine]

After reading what you write, I legitimately think you don't understand US politics one bit.

First and foremost the chances of Democrats winning control of the Senate this year are basically nil. The absolute best they can do is likely 49-51, by winning in North Carolina. I went over this two days ago. Most likely they either win the Arizona seat and are in the minority 52-48 (where they were in 2016) or lose Arizona, trade seats between Alabama and Colorado, and are 53-47... exactly where they are today.

The places Democrats need to win in order to win the Senate - Arizona, Maine, North Carolina, Alabama, Arizona, Colorado - are hindered, not helped, but a progressive candidate. It's unlikey a progressive candidate wins North Carolina for instance. A moderate might. You honestly are so politically in la-la land you think voters would vote for Trump at the top of the ticket, and then a Centrist Democrat Senator there? Not going to happen. This is going to be a straight red or straight blue ticket election for swing state people, and progressives are a DISADVANTAGE in the above locations.

So no. No senate.

Secondly, if miraculously Democrats did hold the Senate, President Sanders would face a House and Senate utterly hostile to him. There are not even 150 votes in the House for M4A. And there aren't even 30 votes in the Senate for it. Probably less. And single payer? About the same.

The Democratic majority in the House is owed to moderates, not progressives. Moderates who will be nervous about losing their seats in 2022. There is no chance they take up a M4A bill. Especially since, due to how the Senate works, Mitch McConnell, if he is majority leader, would just not take up the bill at all. If he is minority leader, would make sure that it never gets the 60 votes needed to end the fillibuster. Either way, M4A never happens.

"Tremendous Poltiical Capital", the way you use it, is a nice way of saying "I hope". Mitch McConnell walks the earth. He doesn't give a crap about niceties like that and the bully pulpit won't work for President Sanders, especially since Congressional and Senate Democrats will be far cooler to Sanders than Republicans have been to Trump. That is the key difference. Democrats engage in more coalition-style politics. Republicans are more ideologically regular. Furthermore Democrats don't have a man like Mitch McConnell to keep them in a party line.

So no, your option (C) doesn't exist. It fails because retaking the Senate is very unlikely. It fails because even if you did, you won't have near 60 votes. It fails because House Democrats, which owe their majority to centrist and conservative Democrats, would be afraid of getting wiped out in 2022 in their districts by being too close to Bernie. So nothing comes up for a vote on the Bernie Sanders agenda.

But he'll sign 4x $800 billion defense bills because there _is_ a broad congressional consensus on that.

Your passion does not supersede political realities. You are a slave them them. And no amount of Bernie-hand-wavy rhetoric will free you from it.

Your right-left voter paradigm was outdated thirty years ago. You are not as smart as you think you are. You are repeating outdated, ridiculous, ignorant arguments about voting patterns. The same "centrist" voters that brought Obama to victory voted for Trump OR didn't show up in 2016, despite Hillary being the queen of centrists. There is no such thing as a "centrist" voter. This is meaningless bullshit made up by the DLC in the 90s and it has led to NOTHING but failure for twenty years.

[JohnBrown1917]

https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-c...1488915?amp=1&


Is joe okay?

[Skroe]

Your right-left voter paradigm was outdated thirty years ago. You are not as smart as you think you are. You are repeating outdated, ridiculous, ignorant arguments about voting patterns. The same "centrist" voters that brought Obama to victory voted for Trump OR didn't show up in 2016, despite Hillary being the queen of centrists. There is no such thing as a "centrist" voter. This is meaningless bullshit made up by the DLC in the 90s and it has led to NOTHING but failure for twenty years.

Really? Because I called the 2018 election almost to the delegate here.

I must be getting something right.

You just want validation. You want America to say "I believe in NineSpine's beliefs". Problem is, you're completely unwilling to do the work necessary to win America's assent. You're entirely unstrategic about it. You think passion is a strategy. Passion is not a strategy. Passion is irrelevant.

But go ahead. Walk into the jaws of doom. See what happens. Just be aware, we people warning you against this are going to make you own the Progressive-Bernie 2020 Faceplant for years to come. Because when you lose, and lose you shall, you'll own it all by your lonesome. ANd we'll never let you forget that four more years of Donald Trump is the result of the idiotic strategy of Bernie Sanders and his cult that was built around mainly feeling good about themselves, and you know, not actually winning states and districts by calibrating their message for places they don't have a lock on.

It would be funny if the results weren't so disastrous for America.

[Skroe]

This itself is actually my primary concern for Bernie Sanders and why I'd really prefer Warren. He's had a heart attack and generally does not look as physically well as he could. I can't fathom how he'd survive 4 years in the office of the president, and there's no way he could run a second term even if he survives the first. Democrats would do better with a candidate that can take it through two terms.

Realistically as a 79 year old man who had a heart attack in the next 6 months, he has about 3 years to live from what I've read.

As President, he'd be subject to constant monitoring which would likely put him beyond that that 3 year ticking clock. But no amount of monitoring will outright prevent the incidence of a cardiac event that may force him to resign before his term is up, or not run for re-election.

[Drutt]

It does matter. That's what you're not seeing. Their perceptions of individual candidates MUST be secondary to the need of defeating Trump. It's madness to think otherwise.

People who are fighting to stay afloat aren't going to turn up to vote for someone who is also going to keep a foot on their head, but will push a little less hard. They're just going develop a cynical attitude towards politics and not take part.

Many of us are in a position where we can afford to wax philosophical about greater goods/lesser evils/insert chosen cliche of choice. Four years of status quo won't kill us, we can afford to vote anyone to just be shot of Trump. That's simply not true of everyone. though. A lot of people are really, really struggling and desperately need something to change.

It's critical that people understand that because you are never, ever going to convince one of the drowning people that voting for Blue Trump is an all-important moral victory. They just don't have the same priorities as you, and nothing you say will change that.

[Elegiac]

Meh, Bernie has already demonstrated what kind of leader he is over 5 years. Pretending he will change is like people saying that congress and judges will teach Trump how to act more presidential.

I mean when the DNC gave Bernie concessions for the Unity council. He sends bomb throwers that pushed for more caucuses.

Or when he pushed for Ellison to be DNC chair, and got deputy chair instead. For people not paying attention to Ellison recently. He's making Perez look awesome.

Bernie's PAC and now extinct Sanders Foundation have pretty shady leadership.

These are people that Bernie gets to pick. His picks make him look Trumpian. He prefer loyalist hacks instead of policy and organizational experts.

Look at his loyalists on this thread, or moreso over the past 5 years. They've personalized their victimhood at the hands of the DNC to such aburd levels. There's no reasoning with them.

Looking forward to news of Bernie Campaign and their 500+ FEC violations. Thats alot! Not reporting waay too many excessive donations.

It's just willfully bad management at this point.

Today was the day Bernie Sanders finally became President.

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Realistically as a 79 year old man who had a heart attack in the next 6 months, he has about 3 years to live from what I've read.

As President, he'd be subject to constant monitoring which would likely put him beyond that that 3 year ticking clock. But no amount of monitoring will outright prevent the incidence of a cardiac event that may force him to resign before his term is up, or not run for re-election.

Speaking of, anyone remember that time when Warren was leading in the progressive lane and Bernie didn't drop out even after having his heart attack?

What does that say about someone whose brand is "authenticity" and yet doesn't acknowledge their own limitations in getting a progressive agenda installed.

[Skroe]

Today was the day Bernie Sanders finally became President.

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Speaking of, anyone remember that time when Warren was leading in the progressive lane and Bernie didn't drop out even after having his heart attack?

What does that say about someone whose brand is "authenticity" and yet doesn't acknowledge their own limitations in getting a progressive agenda installed.

We'll get Bernie Sanders' full medical records about five minutes after we get Trump's, something tells me.

"Authenticity".

*whispers*It's a crock of shit slogan, just like "political revolution" *whispers*

I honestly wonder who is so much of a rube to sincerely believe that horseshit.

[NineSpine]

Really? Because I called the 2018 election almost to the delegate here.

I must be getting something right.

You just want validation. You want America to say "I believe in NineSpine's beliefs". Problem is, you're completely unwilling to do the work necessary to win America's assent. You're entirely unstrategic about it. You think passion is a strategy. Passion is not a strategy. Passion is irrelevant.

But go ahead. Walk into the jaws of doom. See what happens. Just be aware, we people warning you against this are going to make you own the Progressive-Bernie 2020 Faceplant for years to come. Because when you lose, and lose you shall, you'll own it all by your lonesome. ANd we'll never let you forget that four more years of Donald Trump is the result of the idiotic strategy of Bernie Sanders and his cult that was built around mainly feeling good about themselves, and you know, not actually winning states and districts by calibrating their message for places they don't have a lock on.

It would be funny if the results weren't so disastrous for America.

You can keep blaming me and Sanders for the hypothetical Trump second term, while you demand the same strategy that gave Trump his first term. You people are utterly deranged and your inability to accept your failure in 2016 has driven you completely insane.

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We'll get Bernie Sanders' full medical records about five minutes after we get Trump's, something tells me.

"Authenticity".

*whispers*It's a crock of shit slogan, just like "political revolution" *whispers*

I honestly wonder who is so much of a rube to sincerely believe that horseshit.

We already have Sanders medical records

[cubby]

Bottom line: It doesn't matter whether its the right thing to vote for whoever the democratic nominee is. Moralize in one hand and shit in the other.

What's right doesn't matter. What wins elections is what matters, and saying "Fuck you" to voters doesn't win elections.

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Dude, your moral opinion of peoples' voting habits
DOES
NOT
MATTER

It is meaningless.
It is nonsense.
It has no impact on the real world.
It is synapses in your brain and nothing else.
It does not win elections.
It does not change minds.
It does nothing productive.
It is garbage.
It is a tree falling in the forest and nobody hearing it.
It. Does. Not. Matter.

What the fuck are you going on about more opinion. You're right it doesn't matter - that's my fucking point. Neat list of whatever that is though.

[starlord]

Basically, and I don't really understand the point of tearing down Sanders supporters, even like, the super hardcore ones. Do they think this time it's gonna make them want to vote for their Raptor Jesus candidate?

There's some pretty horrible people on the internet. Some of them support Bernie, and given that more young people support Bernie and more young people are on the internet, it stands to reason you're more likely to have more horrible people support Bernie.

But...that's not an attack against Bernie.

at least sanders is acknowledging that they are a problem. bernie fans acting like rabid goons does nothing but hurt bernie now and later if he wins the nomination.

[NineSpine]

Today was the day Bernie Sanders finally became President.

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Speaking of, anyone remember that time when Warren was leading in the progressive lane and Bernie didn't drop out even after having his heart attack?

What does that say about someone whose brand is "authenticity" and yet doesn't acknowledge their own limitations in getting a progressive agenda installed.

Yeah Sanders should have dropped out when Warren pulled ahead of him for a month. Tucking deranged.

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at least sanders is acknowledging that they are a problem. bernie fans acting like rabid goons does nothing but hurt bernie now and later if he wins the nomination.

I’m still waiting for Pete to apologize to me for his supporter that said he was going to rape my mom. Oh, we only hold Sanders accountable for every yahoo on twitter. I forgot.

[Telogrus]

Indeed. Just like people over 75 shouldn’t be allowed to run for the Democratic nomination and non party members should not be allowed on the primary ballot.

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In a word: yes. The polling from Florida in the aforementioned politico article supports this.

Someone’s salty that Warren’s campaign is crashing and burning

[cubby]

People who are fighting to stay afloat aren't going to turn up to vote for someone who is also going to keep a foot on their head, but will push a little less hard. They're just going develop a cynical attitude towards politics and not take part.

Many of us are in a position where we can afford to wax philosophical about greater goods/lesser evils/insert chosen cliche of choice. Four years of status quo won't kill us, we can afford to vote anyone to just be shot of Trump. That's simply not true of everyone. though. A lot of people are really, really struggling and desperately need something to change.

It's critical that people understand that because you are never, ever going to convince one of the drowning people that voting for Blue Trump is an all-important moral victory. They just don't have the same priorities as you, and nothing you say will change that.

But don't you understand that your characterization of [Blue Trump] is just that, a characterization? And that their supporters don't want the other candidates, that they feel are [insert whatever negative moniker you want here], but that they will vote for those candidates if theirs doesn't get the nod because we need Trump out.

How fucking hard is this to understand? Trump is drowning them. Vote him out. Vote (D) regardless of your feels.