Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Afenar]

Mythic raids in 2020? what?

[Xevarc]

I miss raiding with my friends, sadly we've been fighting an uphill battle trying to maintain a 20man mythic team for the last few years. We finally had to call it quits at Crucible.
Other issue is bosses seem to be "Throw your head against this fight for weeks at a time until it dies" the fights are more and more about numbers and mistakes are unforgivable in Mythic. I didn't mind sinking 300+ wipes on 1 boss in a tier but when the last few bosses require it and you spend weeks progressing on 1 boss it makes people not enjoy the game any more.

Bring back 10man or maybe even lower to 15man

[rogoth]

I don't think this is accurate. Our guild does not require alts and does not do splits on 3 nights. We are nothing special typically ranking between US 92-US250 depending on the state of the roster and the tier. We didn't even have anywhere near 750 wipes on Azhsara much less Star Augur... and nothing current this tier would need anywhere near that many wipes.

If you want to climb the chain to top 50 US you will probably need to maintain an alt but there is a pretty big range up to the top 500 that will not require that. With all the added grinds I think asking for 1-2 alts is a bigger and bigger ask for normal mythic caliber players. Those are not the 'cesspool' guilds that are miles away from CE when the tier is almost over.

just out of curiosity, why is it that US players always state their US rank and never their world rank, does it give some inflated sense of ego or something, i never really understood this mentality when the rest of the world just uses their world rank outside of a few niche cases, as to your point, the reason you and many others like you don't 'need' that many wipes is because the likes of the top guilds have essentially done all the wiping for you, they worked out a strat that works all you have to do is get you and the rest of your group to copy it until it dies, which for the average CE raider takes less than 100 pulls on average, also you lack something that the top end guilds do, staying power, i would bet large sums of money that you and/or your raid team would rage quit if you wiped that many times on a single boss and made no progress at all, also you never saw the fight in it's original incarnation, you got the 'better tuned and easier' version, so a lot of the issues that led to the extreme wipe counts you never had to deal with.

the person initially quoted used star augur as an example, but there's a whole host of bosses in nighthold before being tuned properly that had one or more '1 shot' mechanics and any screw up would be an insta wipe with no hope of recovery, unlike in the past where you could get away with some mistakes and still recover, i'll give you a fond memory of mine, the guild i was in at the time was progressing on festergut 25HC in icc, we lost a tank early on due to a mistimed taunt and he got to 10 stacks and insta died taking a couple of people with him, the other tank was getting high on stacks as we got to the last 20% of boss HP thanks to most of the dps still being alive we got him down to 5% before the second tank died to the stacking debuff mechanic, at this point the boss started going around and 1 shotting the melee we had, at the 3% HP mark there was me (mage) our guild healing officer (holy paladin with val'anyr), and 2 disc priests left alive, because i had the highest threat the boss targeted me, thanks to perma shields from the priests and the shielding from val'anyr i 'tanked' the boss while doing as much dot dps as i could and casting fast cast time spells due to spell pushback still being a thing and the 4 of us left standing killed the boss that night.

this sort of thing can never ever happen again in current wow, and honestly i'm sad at that fact because it was things like that, that made raiding fun, and ironically it was during this time when 'alt raiding' was at its peak, so asking people who want to clear the hardest content in the game in a decent span of time isn't too much to ask for a little more effort on their part relative to the average person who logs in to just do dungeons/dailies/pet battles etc.

[Marrilaife]

just out of curiosity, why is it that US players always state their US rank and never their world rank, does it give some inflated sense of ego or something, i never really understood this mentality when the rest of the world just uses their world rank outside of a few niche cases, as to your point, the reason you and many others like you don't 'need' that many wipes is because the likes of the top guilds have essentially done all the wiping for you, they worked out a strat that works all you have to do is get you and the rest of your group to copy it until it dies, which for the average CE raider takes less than 100 pulls on average, also you lack something that the top end guilds do, staying power, i would bet large sums of money that you and/or your raid team would rage quit if you wiped that many times on a single boss and made no progress at all, also you never saw the fight in it's original incarnation, you got the 'better tuned and easier' version, so a lot of the issues that led to the extreme wipe counts you never had to deal with.

the person initially quoted used star augur as an example, but there's a whole host of bosses in nighthold before being tuned properly that had one or more '1 shot' mechanics and any screw up would be an insta wipe with no hope of recovery,

Yeah, I love seeing people laugh at the guy "hurr durr you spent 700 wipes on star augur" meanwhile their guild at that point was hardstuck on Krosus so by the time they came to Star Augur they got a whole patch that gave new artifact traits, boosted AP gains, they got more gear and leggos in the meantime, etc.

If bosses aren't nerfed over time or players aren't getting new powers, you can see a lot of guilds just never pass a specific boss.

I mean back in Nighthold there was probably some 100 pages thread here (cba searching but if someone wants it's probably still in archives) about how tons of guilds are hardstuck on Krosus, so it was a real deal.

And yeah I don't get the obsession about US rank, or "we're top 10 among 6h/week late night alliance (some language) guild", I mean at that point you can make a category where the criteria are so narrow you'll be the only guild in it.

World rank tells us 1 important info - how early / late were you killing the bosses and did you experience them pre nerfs or post nerfs, and that can tell us what is your point of view.

What I don't understand is Blizzard's treatment of "mid expansion" raids like Tomb of Sargeras and Eternal Palace, not only are these raids released over the summer period, but they're also less nerfed than 1st or 3rd tier of the xpac which can be seen in number of CE kills. Kil'jaeden and Azshara had much fewer CE guilds downing them than Guldan or Jaina.

[rogoth]

Yeah, I love seeing people laugh at the guy "hurr durr you spent 700 wipes on star augur" meanwhile their guild at that point was hardstuck on Krosus so by the time they came to Star Augur they got a whole patch that gave new artifact traits, boosted AP gains, they got more gear and leggos in the meantime, etc.

If bosses aren't nerfed over time or players aren't getting new powers, you can see a lot of guilds just never pass a specific boss.

I mean back in Nighthold there was probably some 100 pages thread here (cba searching but if someone wants it's probably still in archives) about how tons of guilds are hardstuck on Krosus, so it was a real deal.

And yeah I don't get the obsession about US rank, or "we're top 10 among 6h/week late night alliance (some language) guild", I mean at that point you can make a category where the criteria are so narrow you'll be the only guild in it.

World rank tells us 1 important info - how early / late were you killing the bosses and did you experience them pre nerfs or post nerfs, and that can tell us what is your point of view.

What I don't understand is Blizzard's treatment of "mid expansion" raids like Tomb of Sargeras and Eternal Palace, not only are these raids released over the summer period, but they're also less nerfed than 1st or 3rd tier of the xpac which can be seen in number of CE kills. Kil'jaeden and Azshara had much fewer CE guilds downing them than Guldan or Jaina.

the problem with Krosus was that he was tuned around having a fully upgraded weapon at the time, and there was no amount of gear that made the fight easier so farming him was as hard as your first kill, same with spellblade aluriel until she was tweaked and star augur is the first time in recent memory that a boss fight has been fundamentally changed mid progression making it easier/harder to progress on it at the time, and don't get me started on elisande and her rng bs before being patched.

and again going back through history, it was the 4 horsemen in naxx, m'uru in sunwell, hodir in ulduar for hardmode, twin val'kyr in TOGC, putricide on heroic in icc were all walls but other than maybe putricide the rest all had simple enough mechanics that you could overcome them with gear and practice, then you had heroic ragnaros in cata who was so massively overtuned relative to the rest of the raid zone where everything else on heroic was undertuned to the point that anyone with half a brain could clear 6/7hc especially on 25, not so much on 10 then it flipped around on rag in that regard where it was easier on 10 than 25 but i digress, you had the infamous spine of deathwing wall, then in MoP you had dark animus in ToT and lei shen himself, i quit around this time so never experienced SoO so can't speak for what guilds did at that time but when i came back at the end of WoD, it was gorefiend people were stuck with as the major wall, and this i feel was the start of them making fights needlessly hard for the sake of being hard and not hard due to how they had been previously, when we go into legion like i said there were many bosses with mechanics that were designed to simply destroy raiding guilds because the sheer number of 'fuck you' mechanics was too much, and the reason so few killed KJ mythic was not because they couldn't, it was because even after they nerfed him (too little too late honestly), it wasn't worth the hassle of potentially breaking up the guild for the sake of getting a cutting edge achievement, which leads us to present day, again blizz are leaning on these 'fuck you' mechanics to make things hard just to be hard, and have shown that it was back in MoP that they hit the limits of the game in terms of what mechanics they can do, and it shows a lack of creativity in the dev team that there's been nothing new for many expansions now.

[Marrilaife]

and this i feel was the start of them making fights needlessly hard for the sake of being hard and not hard due to how they had been previously, when we go into legion like i said there were many bosses with mechanics that were designed to simply destroy raiding guilds because the sheer number of 'fuck you' mechanics was too much, and the reason so few killed KJ mythic was not because they couldn't, it was because even after they nerfed him (too little too late honestly), it wasn't worth the hassle of potentially breaking up the guild for the sake of getting a cutting edge achievement, which leads us to present day, again blizz are leaning on these 'fuck you' mechanics to make things hard just to be hard, and have shown that it was back in MoP that they hit the limits of the game in terms of what mechanics they can do, and it shows a lack of creativity in the dev team that there's been nothing new for many expansions now.

Tbh I miss the times when you could raid with just watching boss cast bar and listening to his voice lines and knowing how to react to what he's about to do. Nowadays it's impossible to raid mythic at an efficient rate without weak auras and other addons.

Yes, people always used addons, there was even addon Blizzard "broke" back at Putricide that people used to mark "safe spots" in the room (also known as the addon used to draw dicks on the screen), but the arms race only got worse recently. Addon for archimonde beams. Weak aura for Star Augur "pairs". Weak aura that assigned mistress beam soaks. Weak auras are controlling everything, from soak assignment on Ra-den to interrupt rotation on Xanesh.

It just feels lame that you have to rely on addons or struggle big time.

More and more raiding feels like staring at weak aura icons, boss mod timer bars, tweaked up raid frames, and less actually looking at the boss or environment.

[dreamdaddy]

His group did. Many of those shit tier guilds have some exceptional players in there, but for some reason they don't want to go up the chain, they remain in their cesspool because they like the people there or because they don't want extra grinding, like maintaining an alt or two that comes with a higher ranked guild.

No, wipe count curve is a U shape. Top end guilds throw a ton of attempts at it because they're doing it before nerfs and before their gear progresses and lower end guilds throw a ton of attempts because they suck at mechanics or strategy. The sweet spot for killing bosses with minimizing attempts is in a 2 night per week guild with good leadership and decent members.

[badgersmashr]

just out of curiosity, why is it that US players always state their US rank and never their world rank, does it give some inflated sense of ego or something, i never really understood this mentality when the rest of the world just uses their world rank outside of a few niche cases, as to your point, the reason you and many others like you don't 'need' that many wipes is because the likes of the top guilds have essentially done all the wiping for you, they worked out a strat that works all you have to do is get you and the rest of your group to copy it until it dies, which for the average CE raider takes less than 100 pulls on average, also you lack something that the top end guilds do, staying power, i would bet large sums of money that you and/or your raid team would rage quit if you wiped that many times on a single boss and made no progress at all, also you never saw the fight in it's original incarnation, you got the 'better tuned and easier' version, so a lot of the issues that led to the extreme wipe counts you never had to deal with.

the person initially quoted used star augur as an example, but there's a whole host of bosses in nighthold before being tuned properly that had one or more '1 shot' mechanics and any screw up would be an insta wipe with no hope of recovery, unlike in the past where you could get away with some mistakes and still recover, i'll give you a fond memory of mine, the guild i was in at the time was progressing on festergut 25HC in icc, we lost a tank early on due to a mistimed taunt and he got to 10 stacks and insta died taking a couple of people with him, the other tank was getting high on stacks as we got to the last 20% of boss HP thanks to most of the dps still being alive we got him down to 5% before the second tank died to the stacking debuff mechanic, at this point the boss started going around and 1 shotting the melee we had, at the 3% HP mark there was me (mage) our guild healing officer (holy paladin with val'anyr), and 2 disc priests left alive, because i had the highest threat the boss targeted me, thanks to perma shields from the priests and the shielding from val'anyr i 'tanked' the boss while doing as much dot dps as i could and casting fast cast time spells due to spell pushback still being a thing and the 4 of us left standing killed the boss that night.

this sort of thing can never ever happen again in current wow, and honestly i'm sad at that fact because it was things like that, that made raiding fun, and ironically it was during this time when 'alt raiding' was at its peak, so asking people who want to clear the hardest content in the game in a decent span of time isn't too much to ask for a little more effort on their part relative to the average person who logs in to just do dungeons/dailies/pet battles etc.

I think US people link their US rank partly cuz EU makes us look bad, also you guys aren't in our "recruitment pool" so to speak, as in generally speaking, none you guys are gonna come take our raid spots or hall of fame slots. Otherwise idk,

[czarek]

End game was always tight. Go back to vanilla data base and find guilds that made A40 farm status and cleared Naxx. Its like 0,1% of player base or less. Myth raid was always tight and should be still. I know some were easyer some harder but yeah just deal with it.

[Penegal]

End game was always tight. Go back to vanilla data base and find guilds that made A40 farm status and cleared Naxx. Its like 0,1% of player base or less. Myth raid was always tight and should be still. I know some were easyer some harder but yeah just deal with it.

You misunderstand, paying customers cannot be denied content based on skill. If you pay you should be equal to Method or Limit.

[exsanguinate]

End game was always tight. Go back to vanilla data base and find guilds that made A40 farm status and cleared Naxx. Its like 0,1% of player base or less. Myth raid was always tight and should be still. I know some were easyer some harder but yeah just deal with it.

Stop comparing modern WoW raids with vanilla already. Vanilla was freakin easy. People just had no knowledge, bad PC's and bad connections.
jeez

[czarek]

Stop comparing modern WoW raids with vanilla already. Vanilla was freakin easy. People just had no knowledge, bad PC's and bad connections.
jeez

Im comparing actual dificulty to past difficulty. We know it now it was easy. Its easy to sain YEAH ITS EASY after those years. I could say "if i would know what i know now 10 years ago i would be a millionaire" >< Back in the days that was hard level for most of us.

- - - Updated - - -

You misunderstand, paying customers cannot be denied content based on skill. If you pay you should be equal to Method or Limit.

Emm. No? Games are skill based till they were born. End game should be tight. Its not blocked with smth just with ur skills. You can enter it try it and defeat it or be defeated. Atm there are 4 diff levels RF/NORM/HC/MYTH all games u played ever you past on max diff level? I bet no. Im not. Im playin what i want and how i want. I dont want to be myth raider anymore but i like to watch others do it. Thats the goal of myth raider to be the best. How you can be the best if all can do it?

[Penegal]

Im comparing actual dificulty to past difficulty. We know it now it was easy. Its easy to sain YEAH ITS EASY after those years. I could say "if i would know what i know now 10 years ago i would be a millionaire" >< Back in the days that was hard level for most of us.

- - - Updated - - -



Emm. No? Games are skill based till they were born. End game should be tight. Its not blocked with smth just with ur skills. You can enter it try it and defeat it or be defeated. Atm there are 4 diff levels RF/NORM/HC/MYTH all games u played ever you past on max diff level? I bet no. Im not. Im playin what i want and how i want. I dont want to be myth raider anymore but i like to watch others do it. Thats the goal of myth raider to be the best. How you can be the best if all can do it?

I was being sarcastic, mate

[mauserr]

Out of curiosity since you call his guild a "shit tier guild", what was your guilds wipecount on Star Augur mythic in Legion?

Wipe count doesn't matter, and truth be told I don't really remember. We downed Telarn on Feb 5th and killed Augur on Feb 13th, though we were actually raiding 25 hours a week. 8 days compared to his 2 months of progress on Augur? See the difference?

As for "shit tier" guilds, I was in one of those myself before I decided to get out of my comfort zone and actually try applying for a decent one. Luck had it they were going from 10M to 25M during SoO, I decided I'd give it my best shot and I trialed with them during that time. I stopped raiding hardcore (25h a week) and I'm currently enjoying the casual life in a guild full of likeminded people.

[bullseyed]

I'm liking this raid on Mythic, as a non-CE player.
3/12M atm, pulled Shadhar for an hour and I love the "Feed angry dog before dog eats you" kind of theme, it feels organic and in character.

Champions! We need to save the world, no, the entire universe from N'zoth!

But first, kill his dog.

[DazManianDevil]

Champions! We need to save the world, no, the entire universe from N'zoth!

But first, kill his dog.

*John Wick would like to know your location*

[Jujudrood]

You misunderstand, paying customers cannot be denied content based on skill. If you pay you should be equal to Method or Limit.

Right? Where's MY participation trophy?!
/s

[Penegal]

Right? Where's MY participation trophy?!
/s

Finally! Someone gets it!

[bullseyed]

just out of curiosity, why is it that US players always state their US rank and never their world rank

Most put like "US 20/World 100" or comparable.

A big reason for that is the difference in paid time off work between the US and Europe. It is understood that more EU players can take a week or two off work to prog than US can, making the two non-comparable. The "time off" thing might not even be true, I don't know, but people believe it is true.

People who include US rank are usually also not World top 25. Which aligns well because even US guilds pushing a high world rank take PTO off work to day raid.



So really it is more of an attempt to separate "day raiders" from "non day raiders". Which makes sense as you can drill down from there into 2 night vs 3 night vs etc guilds. If I have the same prog as you as a 2 night instead of 3 night, that means I'd be way ahead if I did 3 night.

[Marrilaife]

Most put like "US 20/World 100" or comparable.

A big reason for that is the difference in paid time off work between the US and Europe. It is understood that more EU players can take a week or two off work to prog than US can, making the two non-comparable. The "time off" thing might not even be true, I don't know, but people believe it is true.

People who include US rank are usually also not World top 25. Which aligns well because even US guilds pushing a high world rank take PTO off work to day raid.

So really it is more of an attempt to separate "day raiders" from "non day raiders". Which makes sense as you can drill down from there into 2 night vs 3 night vs etc guilds. If I have the same prog as you as a 2 night instead of 3 night, that means I'd be way ahead if I did 3 night.

This is some form of myth that EU raiders spend more time raiding at all levels of raiding... I don't think we'd find a guild outside of world top ~50 that actually day raids and below world 100-150 you probably won't find guilds that raid 6-7 evenings either. This is ONLY for people pushing ranks and the bulk of mythic guilds consist of people who don't take time off work to raid. A guild ranked 200 can raid the same amount of hours as a guild ranked 1200. There are very few guilds that achieve high ranks on very lean raiding schedule, if you're world top 100 and raiding 6-9h a week with no extra raids or extended hours, yes, feel free to state that, it shows you're much more efficient.

But still saying you're world 78 or something tells me more than "we're world 2 6h a week raiding guild", yeah, cool, but unless someone knows your wipe count / kill dates, that could be whatever, depending on how many other guilds within that limitations exist.

So yeah, it does look like artificially inflating the rank by narrowing criteria at best, and at worst it looks like a case of nationalism where a person assumes all the other countries and parts of the world are irrelevant.

P.S. A lot of the 2-day guilds are making up for fewer raid days by either having longer raids, or by requiring much more out of raid grinding (especially paired with early start on lockout extending), and that imo dilutes the meaning of "we only raid 2 days" especially when the game has so many other sources of gear and character improvement that grinding-oriented "2 day raid" guild can be overall much more hardcore than some 3 or even 4 day guild that consists mostly of "raid loggers" and minimal out of raid grinding.