Should raid loggers get low prio on gear?

[Dalinos]

I am not a raidlogger. In 15 years of WoW, I have never raid logged, and I always despised the fact people do it. Note: I don't despise the PEOPLE doing it - I despise the ACTION of doing it. That being said, I never had issues with the PEOPLE doing it, as long as they performed adequately in raids and pulled their own weight.

You ask, "What is there to do outside of raiding in Classic?". Here are a few activities I do, as a raiding moonkin, during off-time.

1) I farmed Strat UD and Scholomance to get Argent Dawn exalted, for the shoulder enchant, and for the enchanting recipes that were added in P3, since I'm the guild's main enchanter. The whole guild comes to me for enchants, because I don't charge guildies with Enchanting Fees like I do randoms (duh, obviously). As such, I've farmed all available enchanting recipes in game, only missing +55 healing and +4 to all stats from MC & Ony.

2) My role as Guild Enchanter leads me to my 2nd activity, farming Timbermaw Hold rep and Thorium Brotherhood rep. Again, for enchanting recipes.

3) While all this was going on, I have helped 8 different people get their Onyxia attunements - both the Jailbreak part in BRD and the UBRS part.

4) I have mined SOME Thorium to help out our tanks farm the required Arcanite for Thunderfury. My contribution was only 4 Arcane Crystals, out of 100 needed PER thunderfury, so even though it wasn't much, it's something.

5) I have helped many alts get leveled and geared (while farming my AD rep in Strat UD and Scholo) so that they become raid-ready and become available characters for split-raiding that we sometimes do for MC and Ony.

The list goes on. Do you get my point? All these activities are vital for the guild, create a healthy, self-sufficient guild in the long run (by having all Enchanting/Alchemy/Tailoring/Blacksmith/Leatherworking recipes in the guild, we save money on fees if we used out-of-guild crafters) that the raid logger benefits from. I will NEVER decline enchanting a raid-loggers gear, nor will I ever ask a fee from them, since we are guildies. But that raidlogger DIDN'T help me farm AD rep - he DIDN'T help me farm Timbermaw rep, he DIDN'T help attuning new members. Yet he still benefits from all these activities.

Do I see these activities as a burden? Of course not. I love being the guild enchanter - it gives me great satisfaction knowing that my fellow raiders can get their enchants, for free, with materials from the Gbank (that they pay 50% market value for) so they can perform better in raids. I love enchanting a Rogue's or Warrior's new 1hander with Crusader, and congratulating them on the upgrade. Needless to say, all of these activities have been done while on Discord - after 2 months I started recognising voices, by now I recognise every single member's voice. The relationship-bonding that happens on a Thursday afternoon after a long day at the office is really cool, and makes the game fun, for me at least.

And where is the raid-logger in all of this? Nowhere to be found. I love raiding in Classic because it is semi-serious, yet relaxing at the same time. Preparation is key, and it harkens back to the pen & paper DnD sessions I had as a high-schooler, where preparing to enter the haunted crypt took the same time as clearing the haunted crypt. Yet where is the raid-logger for the 1st part of raiding? Oh that's right. Nowhere. The raid-logger in classic literally misses out on half the fun. The Discord banter that goes on during a raid is incomparable to the Discord banter that goes on in a 5man. For obvious reasons.

[socialmaker]

ITT: raiders should help me gear up my alts and run me dungeons and say funny jokes in gchat.
OT: no of course they shouldn't. They helped with the kill and are as entitled for loot as everyone else.

[Polarthief]

Oh I thought this was a topic about parse monkeys (e.g., people who give a fuck about logs). If these people are keeping up with their neck levels, doing M+ weekly for their cache, and still have their essences, I don't see what giving them less gear will do.

Now if they're falling way behind on their requirements, then yeah fuck those people. Any decently hardcore guild should absolutely be not prioritizing these people. But again, if they're keeping up and not frequently messing up mechanics, I see no reason to deny them loot.

PS: Also fuck parse monkeys who ignore mechanics. They too should be given less prio.


EDIT: I'm bad and didn't notice this was a classic forum post because I saw it on recent threads and didn't notice the ice cream cone. My b. Minus retail's requirements, my point still stands if they're fucking up mechanics, especially if it's because they're a parse monkey.

[Dalinos]

Oh I thought this was a topic about parse monkeys (e.g., people who give a fuck about logs). If these people are keeping up with their neck levels, doing M+ weekly for their cache, and still have their essences, I don't see what giving them less gear will do.

Now if they're falling way behind on their requirements, then yeah fuck those people. Any decently hardcore guild should absolutely be not prioritizing these people.

PS: Also fuck parse monkeys who ignore mechanics. They too should be given less prio.

You're in the Classic subforum mate :P

[ellieg]

I am not a raidlogger. In 15 years of WoW, I have never raid logged, and I always despised the fact people do it. Note: I don't despise the PEOPLE doing it - I despise the ACTION of doing it. That being said, I never had issues with the PEOPLE doing it, as long as they performed adequately in raids and pulled their own weight.

You ask, "What is there to do outside of raiding in Classic?". Here are a few activities I do, as a raiding moonkin, during off-time.

1) I farmed Strat UD and Scholomance to get Argent Dawn exalted, for the shoulder enchant, and for the enchanting recipes that were added in P3, since I'm the guild's main enchanter. The whole guild comes to me for enchants, because I don't charge guildies with Enchanting Fees like I do randoms (duh, obviously). As such, I've farmed all available enchanting recipes in game, only missing +55 healing and +4 to all stats from MC & Ony.

2) My role as Guild Enchanter leads me to my 2nd activity, farming Timbermaw Hold rep and Thorium Brotherhood rep. Again, for enchanting recipes.

3) While all this was going on, I have helped 8 different people get their Onyxia attunements - both the Jailbreak part in BRD and the UBRS part.

4) I have mined SOME Thorium to help out our tanks farm the required Arcanite for Thunderfury. My contribution was only 4 Arcane Crystals, out of 100 needed PER thunderfury, so even though it wasn't much, it's something.

5) I have helped many alts get leveled and geared (while farming my AD rep in Strat UD and Scholo) so that they become raid-ready and become available characters for split-raiding that we sometimes do for MC and Ony.

The list goes on. Do you get my point? All these activities are vital for the guild, create a healthy, self-sufficient guild in the long run (by having all Enchanting/Alchemy/Tailoring/Blacksmith/Leatherworking recipes in the guild, we save money on fees if we used out-of-guild crafters) that the raid logger benefits from. I will NEVER decline enchanting a raid-loggers gear, nor will I ever ask a fee from them, since we are guildies. But that raidlogger DIDN'T help me farm AD rep - he DIDN'T help me farm Timbermaw rep, he DIDN'T help attuning new members. Yet he still benefits from all these activities.

Do I see these activities as a burden? Of course not. I love being the guild enchanter - it gives me great satisfaction knowing that my fellow raiders can get their enchants, for free, with materials from the Gbank (that they pay 50% market value for) so they can perform better in raids. I love enchanting a Rogue's or Warrior's new 1hander with Crusader, and congratulating them on the upgrade. Needless to say, all of these activities have been done while on Discord - after 2 months I started recognising voices, by now I recognise every single member's voice. The relationship-bonding that happens on a Thursday afternoon after a long day at the office is really cool, and makes the game fun, for me at least.

And where is the raid-logger in all of this? Nowhere to be found. I love raiding in Classic because it is semi-serious, yet relaxing at the same time. Preparation is key, and it harkens back to the pen & paper DnD sessions I had as a high-schooler, where preparing to enter the haunted crypt took the same time as clearing the haunted crypt. Yet where is the raid-logger for the 1st part of raiding? Oh that's right. Nowhere. The raid-logger in classic literally misses out on half the fun.

So 1 guy farms rep for each of the professions. Everyone had to do the ony attune themselves. In a lot of guilds, the tanks fund their own legos or the extra boes help fund it. When the 5 or so ppl have all profs covered for rep recipes, what are the other 35 supposed to do? In my guild we farm a couple hours each week and that covers all our own personal consumables. We get world buffs on our own time. Kinda funny saying we werent there for the first half of raiding when we farmed our own prebis and got attuned.

[Beerbill Society]

What other parts of the game would you want them to do??

If you are not using epgp then it doesn’t matter how much they log. Without them the gear wouldn’t drop.

This, as long as people show up with consumables and do what is expected to clear the raid, you shouldn't really care what they the on their free time.

Missing raids however is something that should be punished.

[Castration]

General hot topic is the large amount of raid loggers each guild has and the hidden animosity that brews between them and general players. They might login once or twice a week to raid and then are gone the rest of the week. Not helping the guild in anyway but still getting the same priority on gear that every day players get.

Should they get the same priority on gear since they assisted in the kills or would the gear be wasted on someone who only uses the gear to raid and rarely is on to help the guild out with other parts of the game.

I've never heard of such a poorly thought out idea.

Who are you to tell others how to live their lives?

It seems that you lost a roll to someone else and came here to cry about it. Just to let you know, we do not care.

[Polarthief]

You're in the Classic subforum mate :P

Fucking rip me, I really should turn that off from the panel on the right. Totally didn't notice XD

Still though, what I say still stands about both classic and retail, especially in regards to mechanics (what limited ones there are in classic), and that goes doubly for parse monkeys. Just, without all the mandatory requirements of retail for classic.

[potis]

snip

This is all necessary if you want to keep a stable/semi-calm environment, from YOUR perspective, this has always been the case, of some people having to do some extra things for the stability of the whole.

Which is why it always ends up creating problems in the long run because the rest people of your guild, DO NOT GIVE A FUCK, because they simply dont care as much.

Eventually, maybe not you, but the people that do this, end up feeling entitled or that they deserve more, in reality the do, but in the minds of the rest of the people, they dont, the end goal is to raid, if they were there to raid, your enchanting farming and whatever else, doesnt matter to them, they were there for the boss kill.

I was and am the same with my playstyle and guild in Retail.

I wont talk about past sacrifices, but actively in Retail its the same situation with M+.

I dont HAVE to tank for the lower skilled players to get their weekly.

I dont HAVE to tank for some alts to get their weekly.

But i end up running 15-20M+minimum a week the first month-two of every patch so make sure everyone gets some sort of farm so they wont stay behind too much, cause other problems arise.

This is the small sacrifice i make the first month of each patch cycle for the last 5 years, instead of playing maximum of 5-8h/week, i play 20h/week to keep things stable. by helping the lower skilled people with some things that they wont do without me.

But the good thing is, in the end, it works out because those lower skilled people accept the skill difference, they listen when i say something, and when i start getting aggravated during raids about something because they are fucking up, they stfu and listen to fix things.

[schwank05]

General hot topic is the large amount of raid loggers each guild has and the hidden animosity that brews between them and general players. They might login once or twice a week to raid and then are gone the rest of the week. Not helping the guild in anyway but still getting the same priority on gear that every day players get.

Should they get the same priority on gear since they assisted in the kills or would the gear be wasted on someone who only uses the gear to raid and rarely is on to help the guild out with other parts of the game.

No, This is how I played the game since Wrath, absolutely the only way I have interest to play the game today.

[Dalinos]

So 1 guy farms rep for each of the professions. Everyone had to do the ony attune themselves. In a lot of guilds, the tanks fund their own legos or the extra boes help fund it. When the 5 or so ppl have all profs covered for rep recipes, what are the other 35 supposed to do? In my guild we farm a couple hours each week and that covers all our own personal consumables. We get world buffs on our own time. Kinda funny saying we werent there for the first half of raiding when we farmed our own prebis and got attuned.

See that's the thing - you're not SUPPOSED to do your Ony attunement alone. You're not SUPPOSED to farm your Pre-raid BiS alone. You ARE SUPPOSED to do these activities with your guild. And why? Because a team needs to play TOGETHER in order to strengthen itself. The more your raid plays together, whether it be farming content, pvp, 5mans, you name it, the more accustomed they become to each other's playstyles, the better they will perform in a raid. My druid Class leader had no idea I was a very competent Healer, even in Balance spec - we did a 5man where we were missing a healer (he was on his alt-warrior) and I just said "No worries, I'll slap offspec gear on, I've got this" and proceeded to heal the dung with 0 deaths. If I was a raid logger, my Druid Class Leader would've NEVER seen me heal, he wouldn't KNOW I have more capabilities than spamming Starfire and keeping Fearie Fire up. Lo and behold, 2 months later in BWL, guess who's responsible for MCing Razorgore, chasing down Goblins in Vael's room and has a Moon over his head as the "Follow-Me!" target in the Suppression Room.

And why did I get all these responsibilities? Because I'm not a raid-logger, and my Class Leader saw me perform in an out-of-raid scenario. And he got a fuckton more information about me, both as a player and as a druid, because of that. THAT is what raid-loggers are missing out on.

- - - Updated - - -

This is all necessary if you want to keep a stable/semi-calm environment, from YOUR perspective, this has always been the case, of some people having to do some extra things for the stability of the whole.

Which is why it always ends up creating problems in the long run because the rest people of your guild, DO NOT GIVE A FUCK, because they simply dont care as much.

Eventually, maybe not you, but the people that do this, end up feeling entitled or that they deserve more, in reality the do, but in the minds of the rest of the people, they dont, the end goal is to raid, if they were there to raid, your enchanting farming and whatever else, doesnt matter to them, they were there for the boss kill.

I was and am the same with my playstyle and guild in Retail.

I wont talk about past sacrifices, but actively in Retail its the same situation with M+.

I dont HAVE to tank for the lower skilled players to get their weekly.

I dont HAVE to tank for some alts to get their weekly.

But i end up running 15-20M+minimum a week the first month-two of every patch so make sure everyone gets some sort of farm so they wont stay behind too much, cause other problems arise.

This is the small sacrifice i make the first month of each patch cycle for the last 5 years, instead of playing maximum of 5-8h/week, i play 20h/week to keep things stable. by helping the lower skilled people with some things that they wont do without me.

But the good thing is, in the end, it works out because those lower skilled people accept the skill difference, they listen when i say something, and when i start getting aggravated during raids about something because they are fucking up, they stfu and listen to fix things.

I play this way because this is the only way I enjoy playing . Kudos to you sir, I did exactly the same as a tank on Retail when I used to play it (till end of Legion, BFA is the only expac I've skipped). Of course it has its benefits, and these benefits are usually a level of respect that raidloggers will never get.

When I log on and say "Good afternoon, Guild", 15 people respond. When raidloggers log on, maybe 2-3 respond. To me, that means something.

[bullseyed]

Oh, damn. No, I didn't, lol. I'm not sure it really changes that much, though. Classic was hard 16 years ago, with wooden PCs, players having no clue and no 1.12. You don't need good gear or consumables to storm through Classic content now. So as long as raid loggers come prepared enough that they are pulling their own weight, I'd say it's just fine.

It's not the time of vanilla when many guilds actually expected their players to contribute more than just their attendance for progress raids. You had attunements, gearing sources were much more limited, and so most guilds had to run older raids/instances to prepare new players. Gold and raid resources were much harder to get, so you might have had some people collecting resources, others turning them into flasks/gems/enchants/whatever, some contributing gold, and so on...

Right, maybe you just had a seizure and typed that whole paragraph by accident.

[Belloc]

So, basically, you want to punish people who have less free time? Cool, try that out and see how it works for you.

Spoiler alert: If you depend on them at all to fill your raid, then be prepared for your raids to stop filling.

[bullseyed]

i don't think this is a hot topic, i think its people thinking the guys who only log for raid don't do much for the guild the rest of the time, of which its like.. i want 40 people in my raid if a couple don't always login i'm okay if they turn up to raid and do well.. and help us clear it faster, when it comes to 25/10m you can be abit more picky but 40 people you can't be as choosy.. unless you can of which case go ahead.. but you might blow up the guild when one day dave wants to play something else during downtime and didn't help bobs 5th alt get ony attuned so he got punted from the raid.

Luckily no raids in classic require 40 people. Or even 20 really.

- - - Updated - - -

would you still be killing the bosses without the raid loggers?

Yes, even faster than you are now.

- - - Updated - - -

Or the overall game just sucks.

Then you have no need for loot of any kind.

[ellieg]

See that's the thing - you're not SUPPOSED to do your Ony attunement alone. You're not SUPPOSED to farm your Pre-raid BiS alone. You ARE SUPPOSED to do these activities with your guild. And why? Because a team needs to play TOGETHER in order to strengthen itself. The more your raid plays together, whether it be farming content, pvp, 5mans, you name it, the more accustomed they become to each other's playstyles, the better they will perform in a raid. My druid Class leader had no idea I was a very competent Healer, even in Balance spec - we did a 5man where we were missing a healer (he was on his alt-warrior) and I just said "No worries, I'll slap offspec gear on, I've got this" and proceeded to heal the dung with 0 deaths. If I was a raid logger, my Druid Class Leader would've NEVER seen me heal, he wouldn't KNOW I have more capabilities than spamming Starfire and keeping Fearie Fire up. Lo and behold, 2 months later in BWL, guess who's responsible for MCing Razorgore, chasing down Goblins in Vael's room and has a Moon over his head as the "Follow-Me!" target in the Suppression Room.

And why did I get all these responsibilities? Because I'm not a raid-logger, and my Class Leader saw me perform in an out-of-raid scenario. And he got a fuckton more information about me, both as a player and as a druid, because of that. THAT is what raid-loggers are missing out on.

- - - Updated - - -



I play this way because this is the only way I enjoy playing . Kudos to you sir, I did exactly the same as a tank on Retail when I used to play it (till end of Legion, BFA is the only expac I've skipped). Of course it has its benefits, and these benefits are usually a level of respect that raidloggers will never get.

When I log on and say "Good afternoon, Guild", 15 people respond. When raidloggers log on, maybe 2-3 respond. To me, that means something.

Theres no one way ppl are SUPPOSED to play. You are describing your subjective way of playing. Not the one objective way. Ppl hit 60 at different times. We each formed the groups we could to get attuned. You enjoy running jailbreak and helping others play. I get abt 4 hours to play outside of raid each week. I'm not going to spend them doing atunement quests I've already done. I mean if we are talking about how we are SUPPOSED to be playing, it's kinda funny hearing it from a balance druid lol. The game is easy, I don't need to synergize with my team outside of raid to figure things out. I'll continue playing how I want outside of raid and I'll get equal gear priority as long as I continue to parse high enough and show up prepared.

I think you're taking this game too seriously it's great getting 15 responses to "good afternoon" but I have real friends to fulfill that for me

[Finear]

these benefits are usually a level of respect that raidloggers will never get.

maybe you are just not good enough? I never had problems getting proper respect and recognition just based on my raid performance

When I log on and say "Good afternoon, Guild", 15 people respond. When raidloggers log on, maybe 2-3 respond. To me, that means something.

it means nothing, i don't socialize with a guild because I dont like it and i don't need it and we are just fine
if that's your way to play, that's fine but this is NOT the only way, its all subjective

i couldn't care less how many people respond in guild chat

[justandulas]

General hot topic is the large amount of raid loggers each guild has and the hidden animosity that brews between them and general players. They might login once or twice a week to raid and then are gone the rest of the week. Not helping the guild in anyway but still getting the same priority on gear that every day players get.

Should they get the same priority on gear since they assisted in the kills or would the gear be wasted on someone who only uses the gear to raid and rarely is on to help the guild out with other parts of the game.

No, what would you have them do? Grind Alts they don’t want or grind endless gold?

If my guildies are on and grinding that’s great but if not they don’t need to until raid

[Dalinos]

maybe you are just not good enough? I never had problems getting proper respect and recognition just based on my raid performance




it means nothing, i don't socialize with a guild because I dont like it and i don't need it and we are just fine
if that's your way to play, that's fine but this is NOT the only way, its all subjective

i couldn't care less how many people respond in guild chat

On the contrary, I'm fully respected in any guild that I join (not that I guild-hop, when I join a guild I stay in it until it disbands, so my average is ~2-3yrs/guild). If you don't play an MMORPG to socialise, then I'm sorry, but there are much better RPG's with their own leaderboards so you can get your legendary parses on. Like I mentioned before - I don't mind the PEOPLE who raid-log, they're free to play however they want, but the ACTION of raid logging, I despise. Also, officers are by definition NOT raid loggers - they have recruiting to take care of, loot distribution to discuss, rosters to fix, you name it. I at least help them with their alts, or take some of the officer-burden off their shoulders by being a reliable, active member (like becoming Guild Enchanter).

What does the raid-logger do to help out the officer team? That's right, nothing. He just signs up to raids, and shows up, the de-facto attitude of EVERY raid member. The bare minimum. Again, another activity the raid-logger takes no part in (raid management) yet gets full benefits (a smooth and functioning raid with 0 drama). It appears to me you have never been in an officer's position in a serious raiding guild, hence why you belittle all other non-raiding activities. I, on the contrary, HAVE been an officer, and I know about ALL the extra work these people put in. Which is why I always tip my hat off to the officer team, and always cut them some slack, because all the people criticising the officer team for X or Y reason wouldn't last a day in their shoes.

- - - Updated - - -

Theres no one way ppl are SUPPOSED to play. You are describing your subjective way of playing. Not the one objective way. Ppl hit 60 at different times. We each formed the groups we could to get attuned. You enjoy running jailbreak and helping others play. I get abt 4 hours to play outside of raid each week. I'm not going to spend them doing atunement quests I've already done. I mean if we are talking about how we are SUPPOSED to be playing, it's kinda funny hearing it from a balance druid lol. The game is easy, I don't need to synergize with my team outside of raid to figure things out. I'll continue playing how I want outside of raid and I'll get equal gear priority as long as I continue to parse high enough and show up prepared.

I think you're taking this game too seriously it's great getting 15 responses to "good afternoon" but I have real friends to fulfill that for me

I'm giving you examples as to why being an active player > being a raid logger, and you're not even answering to the stuff I'm telling you. You want equal gear priority when you have put in 50% effort compared to people who have put in 100% effort (active players) and people who have put in 150% effort (the officer team responsible for raid smoothness/no drama/roster stability etc etc). It's even obvious from the way you phrase things. You say " I'm not going to spend them doing atunement quests I've already done.", I say "I'm helping new guildies get raid-ready, because my raid needs this new rogue, and it will benefit me and my raidgroup if we get him attuned". You think of yourself, I think of the guild as a whole. That's probably a decent enough explanation as to why we see things differently

[CrawlFromThePit]

General hot topic is the large amount of raid loggers each guild has and the hidden animosity that brews between them and general players. They might login once or twice a week to raid and then are gone the rest of the week. Not helping the guild in anyway but still getting the same priority on gear that every day players get.

Should they get the same priority on gear since they assisted in the kills or would the gear be wasted on someone who only uses the gear to raid and rarely is on to help the guild out with other parts of the game.

But WHAT other part of the game? This is classic, there's nothing else to do but level alts, in which case gear on your main doesn't matter.

The items that drop from a raid boss are reward FOR KILLING THE BOSS AND NOTHING ELSE. It's not reward for refusing to go out with friends so you can help Billy run his fucking UBRS crap, what the fuck man.

[Dalinos]

But WHAT other part of the game? This is classic, there's nothing else to do but level alts, in which case gear on your main doesn't matter.

The items that drop from a raid boss are reward FOR KILLING THE BOSS AND NOTHING ELSE. It's not reward for refusing to go out with friends so you can help Billy run his fucking UBRS crap, what the fuck man.

Read my above post (#42) in order to get more information as to what there is to do in the game besides raiding.