dear blizzard take your time to make next xpansion right

[Mardux]

They better do, if they fail again with Shadowlands, more people will play Classic/TBC/WotLK legacy servers, the same that happened to RS3.

Yeah, cuz if shadowlands is a failure the only option is to go to a 15 year old game that will never have anything new in it. Oof.

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"Release when it's done" died a long time ago, corporate blizzard will release broken and unfinished products to fit into quarterly earnings.



You saying WoD and BFA were good or what?

About as good as any other xpac, in that just because you disagree with an opinion doesnt mean you are right.

And they waited how long to finish legion? And the entire time having to see/hear people on the brink of rioting because blizzarddidnt release it even sooner.

[Tiwack]

Yes, take your time, let me grind so many visions that I won't be affected by corruption at all anymore despite wearing every piece of corrupted gear I possess...
Maybe I'll get lucky and have mail muncher appear by then.

[Tradu]

Nice assumption, but I do Battle of Nazjatar all the time since it's a great source of CP and I have never experienced any lag at all during it except once. All you have to do is not join some a group that puts you into a server that has 200+ people in there. The only time I've seen the lag occur is when a guild called "Ruinous brings in 5 raid groups to that shard so you have 200 allies (yes literally this many) and brings the server to its knees, but even then its only for a few minutes. It's a known fact the server can't handle over X amount of people in a zone especially with abilities firing off left and right.

Secondly region doesn't matter as the same rules apply.

Maybe they shouldn't allow you to force that many people onto 1 shard then if their servers can't handle it. It's not even just BoN either, it's any time the world bosses get pulled pretty much. That also happens in Vale.

[Rogue Karl]

I don't really think it's a time issue... the content of bfa was pretty great. It is the terrible system they put into it that failed the expansion.

Strip out titanforging,corruption,azerite,ap,cloak,essences, and you would have a solid 8/10 expansion.

It's all the garbage they tacked onto it that brought it low.

[Shaetha]

I feel like those people probably exist. You don't think there's players out there who can play well, but don't have time to get gear?



Of course not, if corruption never existed all the content will still get cleared. It does exist however so Blizz has to deal with claims of p2w. I do just fine but I also don't do any group content I can define winning but I can't because "winning" is different for everyone. I would imagine that winning the world first race is "winning" to the people that say corruption is p2w.

You can make the same argument about literally any game with equipment and cheat protection. Someone is going to try to pay to shortcut it. It never doesn't happen. If you think the token made it suddenly possible to buy gold, I have a bridge to sell you.

Pay to win is a specific definition, that being getting an advantage you can literally never get otherwise. Games like Atlantica Online are pay to win. There are items you can get from the cash shop that there is no other source for, and they make your character enormously more powerful. They may be tradeable, but the only primary source is from the cash shop. That is pay to win. Anything else being called thus is either ignorance or dishonesty.

We define sounds to mean specific things. That is called language. If you intentionally use these sounds incorrectly to try to win an argument, that makes you a scumbag.

[Drusin]

You can make the same argument about literally any game with equipment and cheat protection. Someone is going to try to pay to shortcut it. It never doesn't happen. If you think the token made it suddenly possible to buy gold, I have a bridge to sell you.

Pay to win is a specific definition, that being getting an advantage you can literally never get otherwise. Games like Atlantica Online are pay to win. There are items you can get from the cash shop that there is no other source for, and they make your character enormously more powerful. They may be tradeable, but the only primary source is from the cash shop. That is pay to win. Anything else being called thus is either ignorance or dishonesty.

We define sounds to mean specific things. That is called language. If you intentionally use these sounds incorrectly to try to win an argument, that makes you a scumbag.

The problem with your argument is

Pay to win is a specific definition

According to who? Who do we trust to define video game terms? If you google it



The first result you get is from Quora and its definition would include buying corrupted gear as well. But we certainly aren't going to trust just some random person responding to a question. That'd be no different than accepting whatever answer someone gave here on mmo-champ. Other results are from UrbanDictionary and random game sites. Wikipedia says this



Which can't be the definition you are going by because the second sentence says "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers" and buying corrupted gear would certainly fall into that definition. So what is this specific definition you have, where did you get it and why should I trust the source?

[kamuimac]

Anyone who says they need gear to perform is simply a bad player. Yes, gear allows people to do more damage but being good is mostly about having a skill.

erm ... in world where bis corruption can give you like 20% of your dmg ? how about no.

[dewd]

since bfa cant be taken serious as an actual game i think theyre working on shadowlands ever since they finished legion and just put out scrapped ideas and whatever the interns came up and named in bfa to bridge the gap between the two

[TheRevenantHero]

After seeing how much they have fucked up their own lore and what has been revealed of the expansion, I honestly expect Shadowlands to actually kill the game.

[kamuimac]

since bfa cant be taken serious as an actual game i think theyre working on shadowlands ever since they finished legion and just put out scrapped ideas and whatever the interns came up and named in bfa to bridge the gap between the two

highly unlikely . most like is that we will see alpha in may/june - beta septemeber/october and release january / february .

they know they cannot release unfinished expansion like BfA.

i would much rather endure 14-15 months of 8.3 and have expansion like MoP or Legion then short wait and recive crap like WoD/BfA

[Gonfer]

But hey...I go first and give you numbers to check and that is wowprogress listing 17 k guilds in HM raiding...so with an average raid of 20 peeps that is 340 000 players. If WoW has less than a million players, guess we have hit a HM raid high with suddenly 50% of players participating in HM raiding. Yeah...I guess not.

You need to check your math skills. 340.000 of a million players is roughly a third. And if you think about the focus the devs have currently, it is possible that only the raiders and mythic+ dungeon runners remain.

I am quite fascinated you act as if the loss of 95% of all players, as you write yourself, over the years is normal, while it is not. If you think about the idea that there is a potential playerbase of 150 million players, it would actually mean the fluctuation is extremely high, and the devs were not able to keep players playing in the endgame. As most just played a few months or even weeks, and then left.

So now lets think about it.. if people level, play some dungeons just to leave again, where would you think is the biggest problem in World of Warcraft?

Could it be that the endgame is just not fun or is focused on the wrong minority playerbase, as like, lets say, raiders or mythic plus runners, which probably build a third of the players that are still left nowadays?

Did Hazzikostas probably finally got the audience he always wanted, but also managed to make the game unfun for a large majority?

Think about it. Think about the question if the game could probably still have million of players, if the focus was on something different than competetive gameplay, premade raids and rated pvp from the start.

Think about the question, if the developers still could get back a large playerbase, if they finally catered the game to the many, and not to a few.

Take classic as a good example. There were million players leveling chars. And now? How many are left? Actually, Superdata recently published, that WoW lost 60% of all its subs during the last quarter. Now imagine, there would not just have been leveling in classic, which was fun, but also a diverse endgame. Even also already in 2004-2006. Imagine, the devs would have created open world content from start and focused entirely on it. Imagine, raids would have got a matchmaking system from start, and would be gameplay, that catered to the masses, and not to the nolifer nerds. Now imagine, this game would have developed into this direction, and not into a mythic+- and organized raidnerdvana WoW is nowadays. Imagine, there would be fun open world content. Imagine, the devs would have focused on many, and not just a few.

What if all that would have kept 100 million players playing?

For me, the answer is clear. The devs catered to the wrong people, destroyed the game, and decimated the playerbase by 95%. And there we are nowadays. With a world of warcraft full of raiders and mythic+ runners. And Ion Hazzikostas bias fully implemented. While the company still could have millions of customers, but now just has a few players left.

[Mirishka]

But which part should blizzard listen?
People happy with the game dont post about it.
For all we know people unhappy with the game could be a minority.

It is an objective fact that the people who bitch about WoW on the forums are an incredibly tiny minority of the game's players. Which is precisely why my eyes all but roll out of my skull when I see stuff like "REEEEEEEE MOST PLAYERS WANT <insert name of thing 11 people are whining about>."

None of us, myself included, have a clue how 'most' players feel about a damn thing.

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For me, the answer is clear. The devs catered to the wrong people, destroyed the game, and decimated the playerbase by 95%. And there we are nowadays. With a world of warcraft full of raiders and mythic+ runners. And Ion Hazzikostas bias fully implemented. While the company still could have millions of customers, but now just has a few players left.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Literally none.

[Gaidax]

In case you were not up to speed of what is going on around you - all high tech sector is working from home now. I do too and let me tell you straight, you can't do 100% capacity at home because eventually you do reach various stumbling blocks and then distance becomes a challenge. Communication tools help, but it's not super efficient, compared to being in the office with everyone you need surrounding you.

So yeah, this means that Shadowlands will be delayed, I'd be surprised they manage to release it before December now.

[Gonfer]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Literally none.

Well, WoW had a total of 150 million unique accounts. How many are left nowadays?

[unbound]

highly unlikely . most like is that we will see alpha in may/june - beta septemeber/october and release january / february .

they know they cannot release unfinished expansion like BfA.

i would much rather endure 14-15 months of 8.3 and have expansion like MoP or Legion then short wait and recive crap like WoD/BfA

The interesting part is that the expansions that are generally regarded as good actually took less time than the expansions that are generally regarded as bad.

BC - 1/16/2007
Wrath - 11/13/2008 (667 days)
Cata - 12/7/2010 (754 days)
MoP - 9/25/2012 (658 days)
WoD - 11/13/2014 (779 days)
Legion - 8/30/2016 (656 days)
BfA - 8/14/2018 (714 days)

So more time doesn't make for a better expansion.

[Eapoe]

You need to check your math skills. 340.000 of a million players is roughly a third. And if you think about the focus the devs have currently, it is possible that only the raiders and mythic+ dungeon runners remain.

I am quite fascinated you act as if the loss of 95% of all players, as you write yourself, over the years is normal, while it is not. If you think about the idea that there is a potential playerbase of 150 million players, it would actually mean the fluctuation is extremely high, and the devs were not able to keep players playing in the endgame. As most just played a few months or even weeks, and then left.

So now lets think about it.. if people level, play some dungeons just to leave again, where would you think is the biggest problem in World of Warcraft?

Could it be that the endgame is just not fun or is focused on the wrong minority playerbase, as like, lets say, raiders or mythic plus runners, which probably build a third of the players that are still left nowadays?

Did Hazzikostas probably finally got the audience he always wanted, but also managed to make the game unfun for a large majority?

Think about it. Think about the question if the game could probably still have million of players, if the focus was on something different than competetive gameplay, premade raids and rated pvp from the start.

Think about the question, if the developers still could get back a large playerbase, if they finally catered the game to the many, and not to a few.

Take classic as a good example. There were million players leveling chars. And now? How many are left? Actually, Superdata recently published, that WoW lost 60% of all its subs during the last quarter. Now imagine, there would not just have been leveling in classic, which was fun, but also a diverse endgame. Even also already in 2004-2006. Imagine, the devs would have created open world content from start and focused entirely on it. Imagine, raids would have got a matchmaking system from start, and would be gameplay, that catered to the masses, and not to the nolifer nerds. Now imagine, this game would have developed into this direction, and not into a mythic+- and organized raidnerdvana WoW is nowadays. Imagine, there would be fun open world content. Imagine, the devs would have focused on many, and not just a few.

What if all that would have kept 100 million players playing?

For me, the answer is clear. The devs catered to the wrong people, destroyed the game, and decimated the playerbase by 95%. And there we are nowadays. With a world of warcraft full of raiders and mythic+ runners. And Ion Hazzikostas bias fully implemented. While the company still could have millions of customers, but now just has a few players left.

Biggest flaw in your logic is that Blizzard tried to appeal to the majority and the casuals. It’s that line of thinking that gave us m+ and multiple raid difficulties such as LFR, to allow players of all levels to be able to do and see the same content.
WoW is also an open world where you can go where you want to and do quests or not do quests.
The game caters to the casual majority more now than ever, which some argue is it’s biggest reason for losing players, but you act like it is only designed for the hardcore.

[Gonfer]

Biggest flaw in your logic is that Blizzard tried to appeal to the majority and the casuals.

Did they? Where do you get an ongoing character progression? In premade raids and mythic dungeons and rated pvp, or in matchmade dungeons, LFR and world quests?

It’s that line of thinking that gave us m+ and multiple raid difficulties such as LFR, to allow players of all levels to be able to do and see the same content.

Mythic+ is a minority progression system. Most people play mythic0 at max, and do things like Warfronts and LFR.

WoW is also an open world where you can go where you want to and do quests or not do quests.

Which are as fun as counting blossoms in a garden. Or as like sending turtles into the water over and over and over and over and.. over again.

The game caters to the casual majority more now than ever, which some argue is it’s biggest reason for losing players, but you act like it is only designed for the hardcore.

No, actually, the only fun gameplay, the gameplay, which is the end character progression, are premade raids and mythic+ dungeons. Also, the developers cater fully to these people, as LFR is just a trash version of the organized raid gameplay. Infact, LFR is only meant to be a justification to add a lot of raid content for Ion Hazzikostas. And not to be serious endgame.

Add to this, that most casual gamers are altoholics, and the game is anything else than alt friendly in its current incarnation, where you have to invest the hardcore gamers nerd playtime to play more than 2 characters.

[Gonfer]

No idea what math skills are there to check. If we 340 000 raiding HM and only 1 million subs, then 30% raid HM...

You talked about 50%.

and we never had such a high raiders number.

Well, if you cater a game only to organized raiders and premade dungeon runners, who do you think will be left at the end? When all the other 149 million players finally quit forever?

Now ofc you CAN assume that this is the case just as you CAN assume that you are the guy who has a clue based on nothing and think there is a chance in hell that any MMORPG would ever sustain 100 million players at once.

Well, and you can act that you know the devs did everything right while they lost the large majority of their players, as you love to defend Blizzard in almost all your posts.

And those 100 million that quit didn't go to check out another MMO...because that / those MMO(s) would have squashed WoW. Just like 5 million ppl bought D2, but only 1 million bought LoD. 20 million bought Diablo 3 however...but those 20 million don't keep on playing forever.

I would believe many went into MOBAs, RPGs and group brawlers. You know, MOBAs, which feature fair PVP. And RPGs which focus on class fantasy. What a coincidence that the solo player RPG market is so big nowadays, and companies like Larian and EA have their biggest successes in history, creating titles which focus entirely on solo players.

Also: 100 million accounts created was announced in 2014. In 2015 subs were called to be at 7 million. So right there over 90% of ppl had quit. The highest sub count was 12 million. What do you think when those 90 that left joined and went?

They changed to games that catered to them. Look how much balanced pvp gameplay is successfull and how many people play solo player RPGs.

Safe to assume a fluctuation over 10+ years. But sure. Blame it on Ion Hazzikostas who wasn't even the lead dev back then. Wait...wait...wait...I know. He joined Blizzard in 2008 and THEN immediately started "ruinning the game" It all makes sense now.

I blame it on the devs and their wrong design focus on minorites they took from the start, by focusing on gameplay like organized raids and mythic+ dungeons, by focusing on competition and rated pvp. I blame the massive loss of players directly onto their design decisions, and yes, i blame the 60% loss of subs in the last quarter on the work of Ion Hazzikostas.

Oh yeah, while you are at it explain to me how Blizzard is greedy, only cares about money but let one guy happily "kill the game and lose all those potential subs"

Because they squeeze every cent out of those players which are still left. They sell tokens for real money, have both subs and microtransactions and even do whale hunting with million-gold-mount-sales.

Oh wait...they are incompetent.

I surely would not call a game director who caters to the wrong people competent. Also, considering the debacle he created with BFA and patch 8.3.

Well...that also works nicely...apparently resulting in a 95% sub loss that they could have retained if only they listened to you.

I am sure they would still have a lot more customers if they did not focus on organized gameplay.

[Seranthor]

What if all that would have kept 100 million players playing?

If they had 100 million players still playing they'd have more money than the Catholic Church, but we'd still have people pissing and moaning and threatening to quit, and posting their demands on forums.

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Well, WoW had a total of 150 million unique accounts. How many are left nowadays?

STOP lying... its unbecoming... and does nothing to bolster your negative credibility.

[Gonfer]

If they had 100 million players still playing they'd have more money than the Catholic Church, but we'd still have people pissing and moaning and threatening to quit, and posting their demands on forums.

.. and we still had those that quitted years ago which still play white knights on forums of games they do not play for years already.

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STOP lying... its unbecoming... and does nothing to bolster your negative credibility.

Thats a number det talked about. Do you want to say det is lying?

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52182935