Sylvanas Character Assassination

[Utrrabbit]

Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

Is anyone else really pissed about this??

Imagine being this dense about a character.

Look i undersyand you are a blind follower. But at least know that you are wrong. Sylvanus has been a villian since before day 1 vanilla. She was a villian from the moment she was raised and than freed in wc3.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah I have no idea what kind of drugs the writing-team at Blizzard has taken but there is some serious flaws and plotholes with the entire Sylvanas-arc in BFA.

The only people who would think Sylvanas = bad regardless are alliance-fanboys.

You are pretty dense if you dont think sylvanus is evil.

This is coming from a horde main.

[danielewhite]

I was actually thinking about this the other day, I wish Vereesa's model were updated, I feel like she's big enough of a character to deserve her own unique model.



Why are you suddenly bringing her sisters into this? We were discussing about her people. Also, "care, I mean, she wanted to kill Vereesa and her children in War Crimes but okay.

If there are so many examples, then give more than one. Also just because your enemy did it doesn't mean you get to do that too, and on people who had nothing to do with your enemy, because many people they were experimenting on were just civilians and innocents, certainly not soldiers of the Crusade. Also mentioning that the Crusade also did that hurt your point if anything, because the Crusade was always presented as a villain which we had to stop.

Also, did you even play WC3? Sylvanas and Garithos were not at war, they actually formed an alliance on the premise that Garithos would get his land back if Balnazzar was defeated, and Sylvanas AGREED to those terms. She is literally the one who proposed Garithos that offer. She backstabbed him as soon as he outlived his usefulness, with Varimathras even remarking how she was behaving like a treacherous dreadlord. There's nothing nuanced here.

"She cared for her sisters at one point, that must mean even 20 years later she still cares for them!"
idk if you know... but if you like someone, you are not bound by the laws of phsyics to ALWAYS like them.
alot has changed since warcraft 3, dont forget she hates vereesa for betraying her.

that's not what I meant guys...there's some misconception here... sisters is how she referred to her banshees...
so I'm talking about what we could consider her people.

I played war3 the moment it came out and I still remember that time sylvanas killed the racist bastard called garithos.
Sylvanas is a strategist! and that movement was perfect...she got the help she needed In order to guarantee the survival of her people and them she killed Garithos whom alive would have tried to raze the undead
she killed two birds with some shot... pretty smart.
don't confuse honour with being evil.
shes not superman....she was batman

do you want to speak evil during warcraft 3 events?...
I invite you all to debate about the evilest character In warcraft 3...
of course, I'm talking about tyrande whisperwind
who brutally murdered her Own people...not some random stranger on the battlefield.
in order to release a criminal....who ultimately she didn't know if he would help.
which Bytheway backfired soon after as Illidan tried to destroy one of the pillars of the world costing more elven lives...
as Maiev said..she deserves to be in a prison just as much as Illidan.

[Varodoc]

that's not what I meant guys...there's some misconception here... sisters is how she referred to her banshees...
so I'm talking about what we could consider her people.

I played war3 the moment it came out and I still remember that time sylvanas killed the racist bastard called garithos.
Sylvanas is a strategist! and that movement was perfect...she got the help she needed In order to guarantee the survival of her people and them she killed Garithos whom alive would have tried to raze the undead
she killed two birds with some shot... pretty smart.
don't confuse honour with being evil.
shes not superman....she was batman

And here comes the classic argument "Sylvanas did nothing wrong 'cause Garithos was a racist".

Aside from the fact that Sylvanas never killed him for some noble purpose like avenging Kael, do people not realize that the big mean racist Garithos is a puppy compared to Sylvanas? Also, Garithos had no problem with the Forsaken, he never threatened them with genocide. All he did was tell Sylvanas to gtfo, as was established in their bargain and thus was in his right to do.

And no, it was not smart at all. If she was smart, she would have kept Garithos captive to try and use as bargaining chip to gain a place in the Alliance. The moment she annihilated the remnants of the old Alliance, she ruined any relationship she might have had with the Alliance. She gained absolutely nothing from betraying Garithos.

Lol, how was Sylvanas killing Garithos "honorable"? I honestly can't anymore...... so backstabing an ally and refusing to hold your end of the bargain you proposed is honorable?

About the sisters, yes, that was before Edge of Night where she made up her mind about the Forsaken being mere arrows in her quiver.

[FelPlague]

that's not what I meant guys...there's some misconception here... sisters is how she referred to her banshees...
so I'm talking about what we could consider her people.

I played war3 the moment it came out and I still remember that time sylvanas killed the racist bastard called garithos.
Sylvanas is a strategist! and that movement was perfect...she got the help she needed In order to guarantee the survival of her people and them she killed Garithos whom alive would have tried to raze the undead
she killed two birds with some shot... pretty smart.
don't confuse honour with being evil.
shes not superman....she was batman

oh, literally vanilla to wotlk she saw "her people" as literally just tools to kill the lich king. she saw her fellow banshees as sisters, as they were elves like her, and well WERE by extension, he sisters, its like how you call your friends you grew up with "your bros"

But literally the whole thing in wotlk was she saw her undead as just tools, but with her death she saw them as more then that.
later going back to the tool thing, to become immortal but yeah.

also sylvanas worked with garithos...
she only killed him cause she was done with him.
also you know what i will follow your trend of logic.
hitler was the best person ever, i mean he killed the dude who did the holocaust, a guy killed someone who did something so horrid, that MUST mean they are good!

No, spoiler, killing someone who does something bad, does not make you good.
murderer who kills another murderer in prison, does not suddenly make him free of all crimes, or a good person.
still just a fucking murderer.

- - - Updated - - -

do you want to speak evil during warcraft 3 events?...
I invite you all to debate about the evilest character In warcraft 3...
of course, I'm talking about tyrande whisperwind
who brutally murdered her Own people...not some random stranger on the battlefield.
in order to release a criminal....who ultimately she didn't know if he would help.
which Bytheway backfired soon after as Illidan tried to destroy one of the pillars of the world costing more elven lives...
as Maiev said..she deserves to be in a prison just as much as Illidan.

wow that is some next fucking level streching.
yes, killing a few wardens to free someone who she ordered to have freed but they refused. bad ok
but that guy stopped the legion invasion.... so yeah a few wardens to save the entire planet/universe?
Yeah i think its worth it.
And yes, she knew he would help, these three grew up together, she knew he would help her, just as much as she knew he had feelings for her but well, she did not like him back.
Maiev was crazy, do you forget maiev started killing high elves?
or suddenly are you no longer doing the "other people can be evil!"

[danielewhite]

And here comes the classic argument "Sylvanas did nothing wrong 'cause Garithos was a racist".

Aside from the fact that Sylvanas never killed him for some noble purpose like avenging Kael, do people not realize that the big mean racist Garithos is a puppy compared to Sylvanas? Also, Garithos had no problem with the Forsaken, he never threatened them with genocide. All he did was tell Sylvanas to gtfo, as was established in their bargain and thus was in his right to do.

And no, it was not smart at all. If she was smart, she would have kept Garithos captive to try and use as bargaining chip to gain a place in the Alliance. The moment she annihilated the remnants of the old Alliance, she ruined any relationship she might have had with the Alliance. She gained absolutely nothing from betraying Garithos.

Lol, how was Sylvanas killing Garithos "honorable"? I honestly can't anymore...... so backstabing an ally and refusing to hold your end of the bargain you proposed is honorable?

About the sisters, yes, that was before Edge of Night where she made up her mind about the Forsaken being mere arrows in her quiver.

you have 0 ideas of what war is....maybe too many epic novels perhaps.

the only thing a leader I'm wartimes has to be concerned of is her OWn people. and that she did...therefore she was a good leader.
morally gray.....but a good some who guaranteed their survival...and that's what war is about.

what would you consider was the good thing to do I'm this case...give the land to garithos and put her people I am uncertain path which could ultimately lead them to death...so she could be...nice?...come on.

- - - Updated - - -

oh, literally vanilla to wotlk she saw "her people" as literally just tools to kill the lich king. she saw her fellow banshees as sisters, as they were elves like her, and well WERE by extension, he sisters, its like how you call your friends you grew up with "your bros"

But literally the whole thing in wotlk was she saw her undead as just tools, but with her death she saw them as more then that.
later going back to the tool thing, to become immortal but yeah.

also sylvanas worked with garithos...
she only killed him cause she was done with him.
also you know what i will follow your trend of logic.
hitler was the best person ever, i mean he killed the dude who did the holocaust, a guy killed someone who did something so horrid, that MUST mean they are good!

No, spoiler, killing someone who does something bad, does not make you good.
murderer who kills another murderer in prison, does not suddenly make him free of all crimes, or a good person.
still just a fucking murderer.

- - - Updated - - -



wow that is some next fucking level streching.
yes, killing a few wardens to free someone who she ordered to have freed but they refused. bad ok
but that guy stopped the legion invasion.... so yeah a few wardens to save the entire planet/universe?
Yeah i think its worth it.
And yes, she knew he would help, these three grew up together, she knew he would help her, just as much as she knew he had feelings for her but well, she did not like him back.
Maiev was crazy, do you forget maiev started killing high elves?
or suddenly are you no longer doing the "other people can be evil!"

there was a 50% chance he would help against the invasion..that's who Illidan operated in warcraft 3

and I repeat.......wow story is garbage nothing that happened in wow is good...

and his good friend killed more elves by the way..her good friend was a criminal who destroyed the world 10.000 years ago
her good friend was a puppy of the legion...

and by the way, if you gonna hit me with a retcon of who illidam was good all along..
this conversation has 0 purpose...
because well....vy shadowlands we will learn who sylvanas was a martyr too and all she did was for the sake of all...

[Varodoc]

you have 0 ideas of what war is....maybe too many epic novels perhaps.

the only thing a leader I'm wartimes has to be concerned of is her OWn people. and that she did...therefore she was a good leader.
morally gray.....but a good some who guaranteed their survival...and that's what war is about.

what would you consider was the good thing to do I'm this case...give the land to garithos and put her people I am uncertain path which could ultimately lead them to death...so she could be...nice?...come on.

- - - Updated - - -



there was a 50% chance he would help against the invasion..that's who Illidan operated in warcraft 3

and I repeat.......wow story is garbage nothing that happened in wow is good...

As I said, it was not a time of war. They were allied and they had just defeated the Dreadlord brothers, who were the enemy.

Killing Garithos did not safeguard anything. She was strong enough to reclaim Lordaeron anyway even if Garithos was allowed to escape.

I just told you what was the good thing to do in that case. Take over Capital City from Garithos' forces AND keep Garithos alive and captive. This way, you get Lordaeron and at the very least you can try to blackmail the Alliance by using one of the last Lordaeron warlords as bargaining chip.

And no, Garithos did not have the military strength to beat the Forsaken. Otherwise they would've done so after Garithos died in canon.

[danielewhite]

As I said, it was not a time of war. They were allied and they had just defeated the Dreadlord brothers, who were the enemy.

Killing Garithos did not safeguard anything. She was strong enough to reclaim Lordaeron anyway even if Garithos was allowed to escape.

I just told you what was the good thing to do in that case. Take over Capital City from Garithos' forces AND keep Garithos alive and captive. This way, you get Lordaeron and at the very least you can try to blackmail the Alliance by using one of the last Lordaeron warlords as bargaining chip.

And no, Garithos did not have the military strength to beat the Forsaken. Otherwise they would've done so after Garithos died in canon.

so if they did what you recommended they would be extinct by now...
because they would have to deal with both the scarlet crusade and the army of Garithos.
that's what I meant by a thrall would be a good character even thou he's bathing in the blood of his own kind with his passiveness.
and trust me Garithos wouldn't have just gladly left the capital... he would have come back to reclaim Lordaeron
again Sylvanas knew this and she took care of the problem before it was a problem as Any strategist would do.

[Varodoc]

so if they did what you recommended they would be extinct by now...
because they would have to deal with both the scarlet crusade and the army of Garithos.
that's what I meant by a thrall would be a good character even thou he's bathing in the blood of his own kind with his passiveness.
and trust me Garithos wouldn't have just gladly left the capital... he would have come back to reclaim Lordaeron
again Sylvanas knew this and she took care of the problem before it was a problem as Any strategist would do.

As I said, they could've easily retaken Capital City from Garithos' forces. I mean, look at canon.... Sylvanas kills him and just walks in there with no one opposing her. Now replace it with Sylvanas taking Garithos captive then walking in there. Absolutely nothing would change, except that now Sylvanas can at least try to find some use with Garithos.

Also, I'm not sure if you remember how that scene played out, but Garithos was surrounded by Sylvanas, Varimathras, and a host of undead troops. He ain't going anywhere.

[danielewhite]

As I said, they could've easily retaken Capital City from Garithos' forces. I mean, look at canon.... Sylvanas kills him and just walks in there with no one opposing her. Now replace it with Sylvanas taking Garithos captive then walking in there. Absolutely nothing would change, except that now Sylvanas can at least try to find some use with Garithos.

Also, I'm not sure if you remember how that scene played out, but Garithos was surrounded by Sylvanas, Varimathras, and a host of undead troops. He ain't going anywhere.

I know I'm talking long term....we would have amassed a new army and kill the forsaken.
and taking him captive...? that's crueller than just killing him.

this is what I'm talking about wow story being so weak.

you guys talked about maiev being crazy and killing blood elves.
and it's funny how you forget the details
Maiev didn't go crazy official lore says she was possessed at the time by demons...that's the reason she just comes back as a hero in legion.
you talk about Tyrande saving the world...that's fantasy.
tyrande only responsibility is to the elves..as she is the leader of the elves..that's her world.
don't put all humanoid races in the same basket.
even im our own history being only some race as we are.
a German nazi is not the same as of of the allies...
and they were not going to be treated the same way.
ask China who many were killed there by the japan army just because they remained neutral.

[Varodoc]

I know I'm talking long term....we would have amassed a new army and kill the forsaken.
and taking him captive...? that's crueller than just killing him.

this is what I'm talking about wow story being so weak.

you guys talked about maiev being crazy and killing blood elves.
and it's funny how you forget the details
Maiev didn't go crazy official lore says she was possessed at the time by demons...that's the reason she just comes back as a hero in legion.

And who would have ammassed this mighty new army? All of Garithos' military forces were gathered there at Lordaeron to do battle with Balnazzar. We don't know of any soldier of the New Alliance who fled in canon and came back to avenge Garithos' death, thus it wouldn't have happened if he got captured either.

Uhm.... how is putting someone in prison worse than crushing them with a meteor and then feeding them to ghouls...

[danielewhite]

And who would have ammassed this mighty new army? All of Garithos' military forces were gathered there at Lordaeron to do battle with Balnazzar. We don't know of any soldier of the New Alliance who fled in canon and came back to avenge Garithos' death, thus it wouldn't have happened if he got captured either.

Uhm.... how is putting someone in prison worse than crushing them with a meteor and then feeding them to ghouls...

corpses don't feel...living people feel.
some spies don't go out in missions unless they have cyanide....they rather die than being captured and tortured. and that's mo fantasy...that's real life.

garithos army wasn't completely destroyed.....not because u didn't see them in the cinematic means they were destroyed... most likely sylvanas killed his army soon after...

[Varodoc]

corpses don't feel...living people feel.
some spies don't go out in missions unless they have cyanide....they rather die than being captured and tortured. and that's mo fantasy...that's real life.

garithos army wasn't completely destroyed.....not because u didn't see them in the cinematic means they were destroyed... most likely sylvanas killed his army soon after...

Yes, and thus I am sure that a living person would feel a rain of hellfire literally coming down on them.

And besides I wasn't saying that keeping him alive would be more merciful, simply that it'd be smarter, countering your point that she was smart to betray Garithos.

Exactly, she killed his army soon after. So why couldn't she do the same thing if she left him alive?

[danielewhite]

Yes, and thus I am sure that a living person would feel a rain of hellfire literally coming down on them.

And besides I wasn't saying that keeping him alive would be more merciful, simply that it'd be smarter, countering your point that she was smart to betray Garithos.

Exactly, she killed his army soon after. So why couldn't she do the same thing if she left him alive?

time to gather more forces

in a good story, Alliance would have probably backup Garithos if they knew of the fall of Lordaeron... they don't have internet so it would have probably taken them months before they realized Lordaeron was taken without anyone running into them. obviously Garithos would have gone directly to the alliance if let free.

also.....he would have joined forces with scarlet crusade most likely...

[Powerogue]

anyway thats the big problem, sylvanas literally never did anything against any forsaken moral

I would redirect you to:
-Andorhal
-Before The Storm (Stop by and visit the brand new graveyard!)
-Zelling
-spitting in the face of the entire Horde and ghosting at the end of the War Campaign
-taking the time to admit to every single crime committed over the course of BFA to your face and saying that she never cared about, only pitied, the forsaken at the loyalist epilogue
-unleashing the Scourge

[Soon-TM]

I would redirect you to:
-Andorhal
-Before The Storm (Stop by and visit the brand new graveyard!)
-Zelling
-spitting in the face of the entire Horde and ghosting at the end of the War Campaign
-taking the time to admit to every single crime committed over the course of BFA to your face and saying that she never cared about, only pitied, the forsaken at the loyalist epilogue
-unleashing the Scourge

With the sole exception of Andorhal (and that's quite arguable btw) all your others examples belong to BfA, aka her assassination as a character. Kinda proving OP's point, I'd say.

[omeomorfismo]

I would redirect you to:
-Andorhal
-Before The Storm (Stop by and visit the brand new graveyard!)
-Zelling
-spitting in the face of the entire Horde and ghosting at the end of the War Campaign
-taking the time to admit to every single crime committed over the course of BFA to your face and saying that she never cared about, only pitied, the forsaken at the loyalist epilogue
-unleashing the Scourge

-what? ressing the enemies and use the frenzy or spare kolthira from his well deserved execution?

-we culled the weak since vanilla, executing on the spot literal defector isnt anything wrong

- what about zelling? dont let the loyalist character execute him instead of nathanos or something other?

- oh no, spitting on the horde. isnt like we werent in a convenience alliance since day1

- he pitied on the weak forsaken that growth hope and whatever in them. she still have tons of them with her even now.

- oh no, he broke the mind control artifact that still resonated in every ex scourge forsaken's mind. how cruel!

[Varodoc]

So me saying that i will no longer responding to the subject = i need to "get over myself?". Ok.

No, you saying that people should stop replying to you and that they have no life.

[Malix Farwin]

With the sole exception of Andorhal (and that's quite arguable btw) all your others examples belong to BfA, aka her assassination as a character. Kinda proving OP's point, I'd say.

Agreed, Regardless of how you feel about Sylvanas her character completely shifted in 1 expac. The build up of the character was essentially thrown out the window. You can tell the story was written to get as many people to hate her as possible so they could kill her off.

[Orange Joe]

Sylvanas isn't a villain. She's not, she REALLY isn't, despite Blizzard making you think she is. She isn't.

Let's talk about some facts here, right? Ever since... Let's say Battle for Azeroth, they've been trying hard to get you to believe Sylvanas doesn't have a good bone in her frail, withered body. Yet even if she doesn't, it's not her fault. At all. In the slightest.
She does what she does because she refuses to die. She can't, she doesn't WANT to die. Because she knows if she does, she'll be tortured for all eternity. If you knew what awaited you after death was pain and misery, would you do any different?

Cataclysm to Legion Sylvanas displayed this. It showed Sylvanas as a leader desperate to protect her people, and especially herself. She. Cannot. Die. And who's fault is it, that she is forced to live eternally? Arthas Menethil, the guy who brought her back from the dead and forced her to assist him in the assault on Quel'thalas. By all accounts, Sylvanas is a victim, and while you can argue her methods up until BFA have been dubious, morally-unsound, and likely dangerous to other races, they all followed the similar mantra of survival.

Then BFA came around and Sylvanas decided to systematically force every goddamn race on Azeroth to want her dead! First she burns Teldrassil to the ground for absolutely no reason, desecrated her people's only home, raised the corpse of Jaina's brother and force them to ASSASSINATE her, and then killed a very, VERY reputable and beloved icon of the Horde because he had the audacity to question her leadership. And now she's literally working with some random fuckass nobody's ever heard of to justify a huge power spike so she could waltz up to Icecrown, break into the afterlife and rule as Queen of the Assholes.

This is actual textbook character assassination. They are treating Sylvanas with no depth, no nuance, no grace or tact and just saying "Well she's evil now so go and fight her in a raid now lolbai"

Is anyone else really pissed about this??

How did wrathgate do anything to prevent her from dying?

[Powerogue]

- oh no, she broke the mind control artifact that still resonated in every ex scourge forsaken's mind. how cruel!

If we can't even agree on "'unleashing a mindless destructive force of evil zombies to destroy Azeroth' is bad" then sorry, this isn't a game where you play the villain.

We killed the Lich King. The best you're going to get is re-playing the DK starting zone and stopping before they get redeemed over and over again.

- - - Updated - - -

With the sole exception of Andorhal (and that's quite arguable btw) all your others examples belong to BfA, aka her assassination as a character. Kinda proving OP's point, I'd say.

Well Wrathgate was bad but really wasn't against the forsaken's morals, and WC3's mind controlling to take over Tirisfal was before the Forsaken were formed so I don't think it should count.