Holy Power is back..for ALL Paladins

[Venziir]

Sure why not - might make my prot. paladin more fun.

[Monster Hunter]

now im over my literal boiling rage and utter confusion and disappointment at blizzard, after a good sleep, i still dont like this, even if i did like holy power on hpala every one should remember the horror that was the initial balancing phase when it came in in cata and dread another few rounds of that.

the only way this could work is if the only heal locked behind holy power is word of glory and its balanced such that i rarely if ever need to use it. thus i can safely ignore holy power and be able to heal at full effect no matter what holy power im on. hpala is bad enough with the inside wings / outside wings big swings in hps, it really doesn't need another layer of power ramp up and down. my worst fear is how blizz hates us not using something they force on us and how they will balance our non hpower heals to try to force us to use the hpower heals. that tuning will essentially dictate if we have raid spots and m+ sots or not next expansion.

just you guys watch, hpala is gonna be a total shit show of buffs and nurfs all expansion long trying to get holy power into a sweet spot that doesn't exist.

[Nobleshield]

I never minded it. I saw why other people didn't care for it, but I thought it was neat (I also really like Builder+Spender gameplay though) so this change isn't bad for me. I'm more curious how the specs will feel, since I haven't cared for Prot since MOP with the way they were designing abilities for it. Ret is alright but still a bit weird and I don't do Holy in Retail at all.

[Minikin]

Considering holy power isn't something new, it's something we hae seen befor in many many different iterations over the 3 expansions they tried to make it work and balance it, I think we are well within our right to be upset now.

yessir. i truly dont understand why they keep up the cycle of "BUT WAIT! THERES MORE!"

[Elbob]

It's the most restrictive form of resource pool in the game. Mana dosnt require any set up. All other healers use only mana as a resource which means all there tools are avaliable immediately to use depending on the situation, only holy pala will hae this arbitrary restriction on using its ability again. Builder spend does not work with healing, because you can't guarentee you can build intime or spend at the right time to march the boss damdge patterns.

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Considering holy power isn't something new, it's something we hae seen befor in many many different iterations over the 3 expansions they tried to make it work and balance it, I think we are well within our right to be upset now.

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They had 3 expansions of itteration on it befor they scraped it last time, each itteration brought as many problems as it fixed all to try and keep what is easentialy just an extra restriction on paladins we often paid for in balance. So no one should hae any hope that 4th time is the charm on this.

I find this interesting because I was a healing lead back in the day when Holy Power was first introduced and back then in Cata, paladins were possibly the strongest healer in the raid. Holy Power wasnt THE ONLY reason they were strong but the fact a paladin got to spend a considerable % of his/her gcds on 0 mana spells really increased their longevity in fights. This was especially noticeable in cata 5 mans and the first raid tier. As the expansion went on and holy radiance got reworked like 3 times they eventually became a monster healer that could solo heal fights in DS.

You are also neglecting the resource all healers currently deal with in the mana system... Cooldowns. All the big impactful/important hps buttons have cds attached to them. EF, CoH, Holy Words, WG, current LoD. While yes you will need to build the resource to spend, acting a pseudo cooldown. If you focus your casts to optimize resource generation you will have access to the holy power spells much more frequently than other healers have access to spells tied to cds.

[chakrila]

Add me to the "Not for Holy" camp. I guess I'm going back to MW. Holy Power is incredibly unfun to use in PvP on Holy.

[Huzzaa]

Ah yes more years of crusader strike and other builders hitting like noodles cause TV is the big 3 HP ''spender'', sure love seeing TV do close or over 50% of my damage on a fight while the rest doesn't even reach 15%, such exciting and riveting gameplay where the only fun thing to hit is at 3 HP and clicking crusader strike feels like flapping a wet towel.

Oh well at least I didn't had to wait till deep into beta or near launch to decide if I shelf my ret.

And then it gets parried. REEE

[Monster Hunter]

yessir. i truly dont understand why they keep up the cycle of "BUT WAIT! THERES MORE!"

Exactly and with holy power we hae seen 3 iterations of it, tbh more if you count the mid expac changes to what spells are and arn't tied to it, the form of those spells as well as the weight of our healing into and out of holy power abilities. I had though we had seen all possible versions of holy power over those 3 expansions and they had Finaly exhausted attempts to both make it balanced as in not op with mana free heals with quick access and not so restrictive we wernt even viable to keep a group alive without tons of haste. And also to make more than just a small niche of paladins like the resource. But alas it seems not, problem is having seen so many failed attempts and yes I deem the period we were crazy op with it as a failed attempt (over powered mearly indactes an under powered future in my book)

But this beaing not just something we have seen but something we saw 3 expansions worth of balance passes and iterations on befor being scraped as a failure means we are well within our rights to remind them that this was a faliure and one many many of us expressly despised.

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I find this interesting because I was a healing lead back in the day when Holy Power was first introduced and back then in Cata, paladins were possibly the strongest healer in the raid. Holy Power wasnt THE ONLY reason they were strong but the fact a paladin got to spend a considerable % of his/her gcds on 0 mana spells really increased their longevity in fights. This was especially noticeable in cata 5 mans and the first raid tier. As the expansion went on and holy radiance got reworked like 3 times they eventually became a monster healer that could solo heal fights in DS.

You are also neglecting the resource all healers currently deal with in the mana system... Cooldowns. All the big impactful/important hps buttons have cds attached to them. EF, CoH, Holy Words, WG, current LoD. While yes you will need to build the resource to spend, acting a pseudo cooldown. If you focus your casts to optimize resource generation you will have access to the holy power spells much more frequently than other healers have access to spells tied to cds.

Well... Let's break this down.

First off, being OP, this isn't a success, it's a faliure of balance, being OP is nice but it's like getting drunk, it comes with a huge hangover when the nurf bat Finaly lands.

If you go through the patch notes from 4.0 to the end of wod, you can actualy see the fight going on between our mana abilities and our hpower abilities, first it was blanket increases in mana costs, the nurfs to mana regeneration, cata clysm was litteraly nurf after nurf after nurf, because of how holy power interacted with gear. At day one if cataclysm, in leveling gear, holynpala was hell, some even rumoured if it was even viable, turned out it was actualy op just required the right gear but that wasn't a good thing because that ment nurfs, not the holy power at that time as there baby but to our non holy power heals and mana cost. More Was pushed into radiance and word of glory. Eventualy even going as far as to both work with beacon as well. But that pushed Palas more to gear and talent to get around the restriction of holy power. And I mean, Let's face it paladin from cata to the end of mop Was entirly focused around getting around the restrictions of holy power to get to the good heals. That's not fun, you should manage a resource not have to actively fight it. That's just bad design. In MoP and wod blizz loved the other way and holy power was deminished massively. We were no longer op because of it, but it was so minor a thing it might as well hae just been a cooldown.

And that bring me to cooldowns, every healer is limited primeraly by it, including holy paladin. Holy power is a restriction on top of the base restrictions healers share, that's my point. If the remove the CDs from holy pala again, then we end up op as we can brute force gear around the restrictions holy power to go mana less again and thus invoke the inevitable nurfing to hell and a repeat of last time. Alternatively they don't remove the cd and we end up having an extra level of restriction on our heals no other healer has to deal with Wich directly impacts our viability at end game, especialy in the areas that require fast reaction like pvp and m+. M+ being my biggest worry,

And Finaly. You talk about the optimization of holy power. That's the problem. This is an obstical no other healer has to deal with but we as Palas will now have to devote our gearing and talenting to get around, you can allready see that's the case from the sample talents we have, the bis talents will be the ones the minimise the impact of holy power, that's not a good system, or a fun resource. Our talents will no longer be about Customizing for the specific fight, and adding additions to us, they will go back to being just ways to around holy power.

Mana and cooldowns are limiters, holy power is an impediment. Limiters are manageable, impediments are irritations to overcome.

[Adam Jensen]

I don't really remember it for Holy but for Prot it was not great. It meant if you missed Shield of the Righteousness for some reason, you had to rebuild to it, and in the meanwhile, lost mitigation.

But we'll see how it goes this time around.

[Elbob]

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Well... Let's break this down.

First off, being OP, this isn't a success, it's a faliure of balance, being OP is nice but it's like getting drunk, it comes with a huge hangover when the nurf bat Finaly lands.

If you go through the patch notes from 4.0 to the end of wod, you can actualy see the fight going on between our mana abilities and our hpower abilities, first it was blanket increases in mana costs, the nurfs to mana regeneration, cata clysm was litteraly nurf after nurf after nurf, because of how holy power interacted with gear. At day one if cataclysm, in leveling gear, holynpala was hell, some even rumoured if it was even viable, turned out it was actualy op just required the right gear but that wasn't a good thing because that ment nurfs, not the holy power at that time as there baby but to our non holy power heals and mana cost. More Was pushed into radiance and word of glory. Eventualy even going as far as to both work with beacon as well. But that pushed Palas more to gear and talent to get around the restriction of holy power. And I mean, Let's face it paladin from cata to the end of mop Was entirly focused around getting around the restrictions of holy power to get to the good heals. That's not fun, you should manage a resource not have to actively fight it. That's just bad design. In MoP and wod blizz loved the other way and holy power was deminished massively. We were no longer op because of it, but it was so minor a thing it might as well hae just been a cooldown.

And that bring me to cooldowns, every healer is limited primeraly by it, including holy paladin. Holy power is a restriction on top of the base restrictions healers share, that's my point. If the remove the CDs from holy pala again, then we end up op as we can brute force gear around the restrictions holy power to go mana less again and thus invoke the inevitable nurfing to hell and a repeat of last time. Alternatively they don't remove the cd and we end up having an extra level of restriction on our heals no other healer has to deal with Wich directly impacts our viability at end game, especialy in the areas that require fast reaction like pvp and m+. M+ being my biggest worry,

And Finaly. You talk about the optimization of holy power. That's the problem. This is an obstical no other healer has to deal with but we as Palas will now have to devote our gearing and talenting to get around, you can allready see that's the case from the sample talents we have, the bis talents will be the ones the minimise the impact of holy power, that's not a good system, or a fun resource. Our talents will no longer be about Customizing for the specific fight, and adding additions to us, they will go back to being just ways to around holy power.

Mana and cooldowns are limiters, holy power is an impediment. Limiters are manageable, impediments are irritations to overcome.

Becoming OP means you have systems that make you strong, your whole argument here is about fighting holy power generation which I think we can agree is the gatekeeper to signature/powerful spells. So the concern is the system that gives you the strength to be op is not worth it, because of concerns about later nerfs... I think feeling OP is what every class fantasy should be about. If your class tools make you feel strong its probably good design.

Yea every healer will still have cds in their kit but holy power shifts that burden to resource instead of cd which CAN be hurtful but also CAN be beneficial its a simple shift in play style not a nerf. Calling it an extra restriction is super disingenuous and implies these HP spells are locked behind a CD and a HP cost.

Every class/spec gears and talents around their strengths. What does that have to do with anything? O no you have to stack haste to gen holy power! Thats so much worse than stacking haste to put out glimmers??????? :thinking:
Instead of fighting to lower cds you get to fight to gen holy power... there is no change here. A priest needs to cast x number of spells to recast holy words you will need to CS/HS x number of times to WoG. THE ONLY difference is the priest can afk to gain some of that progression but you also can reaccess your tools fast by focusing on HP generation.

The disconnect here is you view HP as an obstacle only. I agree it a restriction on being able to cast the spell you want to cast, but so are mana, procs, and cooldowns. Cooldowns are far more restrictive compared to past iterations of HP which allows you to choose how fast you build it. You are allowed to build more than you spend per cast so it functions closer to charges (allowing you better pool for times its needed without being wasteful) and more mana neutral rotations will still give you access to strong signature spells that have no mana cost. Let me tell you how Rdruid feels when you are too oom to replace your efflo when the melee move or wg the grp the dmg.

[Hyral]

I think HP works well with Prot but overall this game this world this plane of existence would be a better, happier and more fulfilling place if HP was just removed forever.

[Good ol Stroggylos]

I mean they have decided to stick with holy power as a core system of the class. Cannot do much about it am afraid. Everything will be set around this system. Tbh i dont know how this would affect my thoughts if i were not maining paladin since vanilla . I dont like it , i kinda prefer the end tbc or wotlk version of resources for paladins but w/e its not the end of the world as i have not dropped my paladin last expansions ...
They brought back auras . They decided to rename and redesign the retribution passive into an aura. Not impressed although I prefer that to what we had.
They brought back blessing of sacrifice for all . Could be a good addition if it could be backed by some damage reduction spell/talent that would be universal between specs. No idea if there are going to be personals to synergize well with the spell and make it useful ...
Few spells baseline and what I considered the best from legion artifact and azerite intergrated. Positive change.
DP baseline ? If thats the case thumbs up.
Holy avenger and seraphim : Not really sure how to react but i can see some heavy bursting through this so y thumbs up.
WoG baseline .... Not sure. Is it going to have internal cooldown ? Is it going to cost mana ie gating it behind mana regen rather than a simplistic countdown ? Need more about this to understand
Mobility : No change . Thumbs down.
Survivability : No change . Thumbs down.

All in all balanced (how ironic) feedback about these changes by a really quick look. I believe community and testers should feedback constructively so we can get the most out of it. Especially regarding mobility and survivability : These 2 are really interconnected in terms of viability in high end environments both pvp and pve. They can manage the buffs and utility now that they introduced some tools and try and balance them in the long run. But without survivability and/or mobility i struggle to see how the class will be able to be viable in high end scenarios. They should be giving us something in that area (for example access to short cooldown mobility spells or access to short cooldown surv spells , long arm of the law or divine protection respectively coming in mind).
And no2: If the feeling is that the class will be too strong or difficult to balance if they introduce more : They can gate more things behind our mana bars. Choices should not only be hindered by gcd and holy power gen. Forbearance is also not a good tool. I would prefer strong choices to be decided based on mana : am i going to use a surv skill or heal allies or move around fast ? whats my mana like and whats it gonna be like next couple of minutes ? Paladin gameplay is quite plain and this could add some flavour and also add a balancing tool...

[Crypt]

I wanted them to remove holy power completely from all paladin specs but instead they added it back GrEaT. They want classes to feel different/unique but this makes classes feel more the same because almost all dps specs has a build and spend mechanic.

rogue: combo points
druid: combo points, astral power
shaman: maelstrom
paladin: holy power
priest: insanity
warlock: soulshards
mage: arcane charges
monk: chi
demon hunter: fury
death knights: runic power
frost mage: weak frostbolts to proc finger of frost
and so on.

all these classes usually has one primary(weak) spell that generates the resource and then one single target(strong) spender and an aoe spender. playstyle becomes very similar this way.

[rarhyx]

i'll never play my paladin again as long as every spec has holy power
remove that shit instead of giving it to every spec

[Clozer]

Instead of reacting the correct way with the correct spell as healer - I have to use suboptimal spells to build up hpower to then react accordingly.

That sounds like fun.

It was kinda the same way with Monks and the reason they have no more combo points. Why do they add them again?

[kail]

If it adds something other than flash and shock spamming that exists now, I'm all for it. I recall the worse part of Holy Power for healadins in the past was that LoD required it. Outside of that, WoG was just a free snipe heal that you wanted to use as a high priority with shock to prevent overcapping. I am curious how this will affect Avenging Crusader play.

[Kerath]

Very disappointed. It drove me away from my Holy Paladin as main in Cata, picked it back up in Legion and was planning to continue with Holy Paladin but now I'm not so sure.

I just really did not enjoy a combo point system on a healer, it felt cumbersome to play and too much like a DPS rotation to me. YMMV.

[Monster Hunter]

well if any ones been following the patch notes and watching the alpha streamers the last few hours that should be able to see i was exactly right about this, holy shock is now healing for absolute pish, the play style looks slow sluggish and disjointed between the holy power building and the actual healing. and out only non talent aoe heal, light of dawn is locked behind holy power which looks like its going to take mid expansion levels of haste to generate quickly.

GG blizz ya kill holy paladin.

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Very disappointed. It drove me away from my Holy Paladin as main in Cata, picked it back up in Legion and was planning to continue with Holy Paladin but now I'm not so sure.

I just really did not enjoy a combo point system on a healer, it felt cumbersome to play and too much like a DPS rotation to me. YMMV.

you can watch some one play it here, https://youtu.be/XiyGctThJns at the start till he switches. its very slow, holy shock is a tiny heal and dmg spell now. so fuck knows how were supposed to weave in flash and holy light to keep people alive till we have wod up.

[Kerath]

you can watch some one play it here, https://youtu.be/XiyGctThJns at the start till he switches. its very slow, holy shock is a tiny heal and dmg spell now. so fuck knows how were supposed to weave in flash and holy light to keep people alive till we have wod up.

Thanks for the link!
Jeez, does not look promising so far. Really hoping things improve as alpha testing progresses.

[Thirtyrock]

I am so happy. I never played holy so I do not have an opinion there, but I have not touched Protection since WoD because the removal of Holy Power make it soooo unfun to play.

So I LOVE It !! All the changes and spells that we recover will bring me continuous joy during Shadowlands.

This is my initial response as well. I LOVED Prot prior to WoD and came back in Legion to basically feel like it was a whole different class. Some of that was Holy Power, a lot of it was the other items removed from the tool belt, items they are adding back!

I was planning on returning to the game (just started back up yesterday, actually) as a Warlock or Demon Hunter but with the changes to Prot...The dwarfadin may ride again!