Let loot be Loot - Ion2020

[Laughingjack]

Thats not for the best. Wow has been casual MMO from the start and it should have remained so.
It allowed average players to clear all content and get all gear.

Now with this player segregation casuals do simply cannot reach relevant level of power. Even if gear will be more rare that literally won't change anything because:
almost nobody grinded for TF/WF. That is pure delusion here on forum.

Even my super grindy friend who was near the world top when it comes to azerite did not farm gear (exception was sword from kings rest).

And what gameplay loop are you talking about? We have more possibly fun things to do than ever before and players are still not satisfied.

static gear means zero incentive to play content that doesn't drop gear for you

You claim it was always casual while promoting a extremely grinding system that works against the notion of it being a casual game... You very ideas contradict themselves.

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yup milions of players leaving game are good for the game

this best sums up people who support only raid logging.

as long as they can log in and raid rest can go to hell

perfect analogy to WoD.

Millions left from this change to grindy content. Millions joined during linear progression...

[Greyvax]

almost nobody grinded for TF/WF. That is pure delusion here on forum.

People didn't grind for it per se, but it did give them a reason to keep doing normal/heroic raids.

Without any incentive, people who don't need anything from a raid/dungeon, aren't going to waste their time doing it. At least with a chance of a nice WF/TF proc, there was some motivation.

[kaminaris]

People didn't grind for it per se, but it did give them a reason to keep doing normal/heroic raids.

Without any incentive, people who don't need anything from a raid/dungeon, aren't going to waste their time doing it. At least with a chance of a nice WF/TF proc, there was some motivation.

That is also a delusion, people who did heroic raids only, stopped the moment they had nothing else to get from it. Which usually meant 5-9 full clears. People did not farm it for titanforges, almost nobody did. They cared about azerite gear and trinkets.

And mythic raiders also did not farm it for titanforges. It was all about trinkets and azerite gear.

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You claim it was always casual while promoting a extremely grinding system that works against the notion of it being a casual game... You very ideas contradict themselves.

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Millions left from this change to grindy content. Millions joined during linear progression...

There was zero grind. You are completely mistaking legion titanforging with bfa titanforging. I suggest you to check how that got changed.
Titanforges in bfa were not grindable.

[Laughingjack]

That is also a delusion, people who did heroic raids only, stopped the moment they had nothing else to get from it. Which usually meant 5-9 full clears. People did not farm it for titanforges, almost nobody did. They cared about azerite gear and trinkets.

And mythic raiders also did not farm it for titanforges. It was all about trinkets and azerite gear.

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There was zero grind. You are completely mistaking legion titanforging with bfa titanforging. I suggest you to check how that got changed.
Titanforges in bfa were not grindable.

Yet it was seen as so unpopular that every attempt to salvage the system failed.

It is time to let it go... everyone losses something it seems this expansion. I am not hyped about covenants myself but I will suck it up pick the one that gives the most power and hope its the one I actually want cosmetics from.

[kamuimac]

Millions left from this change to grindy content. Millions joined during linear progression...

the data we seen doesnt support your claims.

people left game when they couldnt progress their toons in casual way .

and thats a fact.

[Laughingjack]

the data we seen doesnt support your claims.

people left game when they couldnt progress their toons in casual way .

and thats a fact.

The data is that after constantly changing it they are writing it off...

[kamuimac]

Yet it was seen as so unpopular that every attempt to salvage the system failed.

It is time to let it go... everyone losses something it seems this expansion. I am not hyped about covenants myself but I will suck it up pick the one that gives the most power and hope its the one I actually want cosmetics from.

1 thing i agree with

discussing this is pointless as choices have been made.

same like in WoD.

they paid dearly for it back then - they will pay again.

but people have right to have their voices heard.

just so that in a year when they in full panic mode revert those changes they could tell "we told you so that catering to 1% is bad idea"

just like they did in WoD. back then this failure of catering to raiders born mythic +,emmisaries and TF.

this time it will also bring good new changes to game

untill they will decide to again cater only to raiders 2 expansion down the line.

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The data is that after constantly changing it they are writing it off...

no matter how you woudl like to twist your words this grpah exist

and shows what happens when blizzard makes expansion catered to raiders

huge expectations after MoP - and 5 mln people leaving game in 3 months because they had nothing to do.

[Marxman]

or - they whine on forums about how they no longer play game but in reality they continiue to play non stop but continiue to whine just for sake of whining

otherwise why would people who quit game dwell on game forums.

Because I desperately want this game to be good again, and I naively still believe Blizzard has it in them to make it so.

[Unholyground]

The fact that he admitted Titan and War forging were solutions that they themselves came up with to combat problems they made in the first place lends me to believe that they definitely mean it. I have to agree it is far more rewarding to be able to target gear you want either from vendors or dungeon drops than to hope that you randomly get it from the infinite boring gear grind we have now. This also lets gear be more impact on player power too, as having so many sources for gear to constantly feels less rewarding because most will not be any good for you at all and you never feel like you are done with that character for the week.

[Alvito]

No Titanforging or corruption system in SL!!!
Loot = loot

The biggest problem that will come of this is in combination with no AP grind the participation in mythic + is going to rapidly fizzle out. Once you have that bis drop from a dungeon you wont have any reason to go back. As more people fall into that category people will stop doing them in waves. He mentioned rewarding people for doing multiple runs by giving them more selection options from their chest, but with a true bis list again it wont take long to check those boxes.

[skumnasty]

I love how delusional people are about the WF/TF "problem". The system wasn't a problem, the mindset of the playerbase was. WF/TF literally hurt NO ONE except those that INSISTED that an item that was 100 ilvls lower but had a .0001% chance to TF 100 ilvls was best in slot and had to be farmed.

The simplest (although not easiest since mindsets are hard to change) solution to fixing WF/TF was to get people to realize they can farm their BIS ignoring the WF/TF mechanic, then start going for those IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO AFTER they had their standard BIS. But no, instead, we have people complaining "It IsN't FaIr SoMe NoOb GeTs OnE hIgH pIeCe Of GeAr DoInG eAsY cOnTeNt" and "OmG i HaVe To SpEnD 300 HoUrS gRiNdInG a DuNgEoN tO gEt My +100ilvl bIs TF iTeM".

[TheFirstOnes]

Literally everyone when Ion said these words.

[schwank05]

Good, now they just need to fix the damn GCD. And bring back Blood DPS and Ill be totally happy.

[Nubulous]

People didn't grind for it per se, but it did give them a reason to keep doing normal/heroic raids.

Without any incentive, people who don't need anything from a raid/dungeon, aren't going to waste their time doing it. At least with a chance of a nice WF/TF proc, there was some motivation.

Maybe not a gear incentive but maybe you want to help out a friend and trade any gear you get to them. Maybe you want to get higher parses and reach for a personal best. Maybe you just find the raid/dungeon fun/challenging to do? Maybe you want to try out a different spec in the raid, like BM to Survival..or if a druid, Balance to Resto..for example. Maybe you just like and want to hang out with friends/guild and crush the raid/dungeon. Theres more reason than GIVE ME MUH GEAR to run stuff. And that is just on your main, you can still do it again on an alt doing same or different spec/role. There are a lot of cool cosmetic things I am looking forward to get in Shadowlands. In legion I played alts but in BFA I pretty much stopped during BOD because I realized how rediculous it is to keep up on alts and a main and its not worth my time. Also in the past ive found myself doing more PVP if there was nothing to get from a raid/dungeon as well, so opening up alternate ways to play the game where you feel like you arent missing out on potential upgrades.

Then there is the question ill ask back about if you have been through the raid/dungeon enough times and dont need anything more from it gear wise...is it a problem that you dont want to or have to run it as much/if at all any more? Are people obligated to help random people outside guild runs on content they dont need?

[Ownslaught]

I love how delusional people are about the WF/TF "problem". The system wasn't a problem, the mindset of the playerbase was. WF/TF literally hurt NO ONE except those that INSISTED that an item that was 100 ilvls lower but had a .0001% chance to TF 100 ilvls was best in slot and had to be farmed.

The simplest (although not easiest since mindsets are hard to change) solution to fixing WF/TF was to get people to realize they can farm their BIS ignoring the WF/TF mechanic, then start going for those IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO AFTER they had their standard BIS. But no, instead, we have people complaining "It IsN't FaIr SoMe NoOb GeTs OnE hIgH pIeCe Of GeAr DoInG eAsY cOnTeNt" and "OmG i HaVe To SpEnD 300 HoUrS gRiNdInG a DuNgEoN tO gEt My +100ilvl bIs TF iTeM".

Besides the strawman, I agree that it was a self-inflicted problem. The same way that a lot of specs end up with cookie cutter talents because there are numerically superior talents that have been simmed out. But like you said; that's simply the mindset we (I include myself in that) have. And changing mindsets isn't something they can do.

In the end, I see this whole issue as less of catering to the 1% vs the "casuals" and more as an issue of metrics. When Blizzard started using metrics like player engagement, they started designing systems to encourage players to spend as much time in game as possible (as that was what the metrics tracked). Going back to "let loot be loot" means attainable BiS (even with that mentality you mentioned) is attainable.

It used to be that way; I remember in Cata finishing Firelands, and playing alts, doing mount runs, or just plain playing other games. Then, when DS came out, everybody put their nose back to grindstone and came back strong for a couple of months, then another period of downtime. That period of downtime is essential to preventing burnout; the infinite AP grind of legion legit made me quit the game after killing Guldan.

I think it's just a healthier model for the game; and I don't think I'm the only one who thinks like that. You only have to look at the success of FFXIV; that game is designed exactly that way, and on purpose too. Considering their sub number has been rumored to beat WoW's as of BFA, I think looking at what other successful MMOs might have been the idea behind some of the changes. I'd like to leave you with a direct quote from their game director answering a player asking how he can motivate himself to keep playing:

"It's alright not to play it everyday. Since it's just a game, you can stop forcing yourself if it's hard on you to keep that up. Rather, it'll just pile up unnecessary stress if you limit yourself into playing just that one game since there are so many other games out there. So, do come back and play it to your heart's content when the major patch kicks in, then stop it to play other games before you got burnt out, and then come back for another major patch. This will actually make me happier, and in the end, I think this is the best solution I can answer for keeping your motivation up for the game."

[Stabbyfists]

Masterloot remains the same sadly. But right now I'm so desperate to be rid of corruption / WF / TF that I can't even find the strength to moan about that.

Forced Personal loot is the reason I don't like doing LFR or LFD. If I have to do them on my alts, I end up not even looting bosses. I just wait til I exit the dungeon and mail shows up saying I missed items on bosses because thats better than getting 24 whispers asking if I need the item I just got.

[Revamp Man]

yup milions of players leaving game are good for the game

this best sums up people who support only raid logging.

as long as they can log in and raid rest can go to hell

perfect analogy to WoD.

You do realize you can still get gear though

It’s essentially the system we have now minus corruption

You have multiple sources of gear and likely will get normal raid level loot from the next form of emissaries

You also have the time walking and mythic dungeon quest

I think AAO is still a thing or at least pvp gear

The weekly cache change

I don’t see what is lost other than “well time to hit the lottery”

Heck crafting gear is a thing now and the fact you can control the stats is amazing

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The biggest problem that will come of this is in combination with no AP grind the participation in mythic + is going to rapidly fizzle out. Once you have that bis drop from a dungeon you wont have any reason to go back. As more people fall into that category people will stop doing them in waves. He mentioned rewarding people for doing multiple runs by giving them more selection options from their chest, but with a true bis list again it wont take long to check those boxes.

Eh let the people that play for gear hit their BiS after all it normally lasts just 6 months

Heck I play all 3 specs on my main so technically for BiS I need
3-6 weapons depending on if DW is better
6 trinkets
6 rings because enchanting
Up to 30 other pieces

I am very happy to report even with a realistic end goal I still have a ton of stuff to do

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1 thing i agree with

discussing this is pointless as choices have been made.

same like in WoD.

they paid dearly for it back then - they will pay again.

but people have right to have their voices heard.

just so that in a year when they in full panic mode revert those changes they could tell "we told you so that catering to 1% is bad idea"

just like they did in WoD. back then this failure of catering to raiders born mythic +,emmisaries and TF.

this time it will also bring good new changes to game

untill they will decide to again cater only to raiders 2 expansion down the line.

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no matter how you woudl like to twist your words this grpah exist

and shows what happens when blizzard makes expansion catered to raiders

huge expectations after MoP - and 5 mln people leaving game in 3 months because they had nothing to do.

I don’t think you know what those words mean....blizzard never caters to raiders and believe it or not some of us don’t just raid log

I hated WoD because outside of my weekly raid there was nothing to do even the “dailies” were shit and the rng gear started there

Yeah MoP had thunder forging and war forging but WoD added random sockets and random stats

WoD added the BS inflated loot tables in dungeons because they wanted every stat combo

What did raiders get from WoD??
“Oh you can raid log”
Did you know we already had that option??? Technically WoD made it a bit easier with gold but you could run a couple old raids and be set.

You use that graph saying it shows raiders kill WoW because WoD but you forget that WoD killed aspects of the game we all like

[Nubulous]

You do realize you can still get gear though

It’s essentially the system we have now minus corruption

You have multiple sources of gear and likely will get normal raid level loot from the next form of emissaries

You also have the time walking and mythic dungeon quest

I think AAO is still a thing or at least pvp gear

The weekly cache change

I don’t see what is lost other than “well time to hit the lottery”

Heck crafting gear is a thing now and the fact you can control the stats is amazing

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Eh let the people that play for gear hit their BiS after all it normally lasts just 6 months

Heck I play all 3 specs on my main so technically for BiS I need
3-6 weapons depending on if DW is better
6 trinkets
6 rings because enchanting
Up to 30 other pieces

I am very happy to report even with a realistic end goal I still have a ton of stuff to do

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I don’t think you know what those words mean....blizzard never caters to raiders and believe it or not some of us don’t just raid log

I hated WoD because outside of my weekly raid there was nothing to do even the “dailies” were shit and the rng gear started there

Yeah MoP had thunder forging and war forging but WoD added random sockets and random stats

WoD added the BS inflated loot tables in dungeons because they wanted every stat combo

What did raiders get from WoD??
“Oh you can raid log”
Did you know we already had that option??? Technically WoD made it a bit easier with gold but you could run a couple old raids and be set.

You use that graph saying it shows raiders kill WoW because WoD but you forget that WoD killed aspects of the game we all like

I also want to say in terms of that graph. You can see they had a much larger spike from MOP>WOD than CATA>MOP. Alot of people were hyped. I came back during this time because I loved BC and the features and story sounded pretty cool and a few coworkers were hyping it up. To me it looks like there was an increased ammount of people coming back but the decline seems to be on about the same trend it was going starting from CATA.

WOD leveling was pretty good. I would say better than both Legion and BFA. The first few months were pretty good since everything was new and all that but then you realized you didnt really need to farm since everything was in your garrison, and there was Highmaul when that opened but what other relevant PVE content was there. People could do dungeons but there was no M+ for ever increasing difficulty/rewards. The challenge modes were kind of lame compared to M+ for multiple reasons. The apexis grind was literally pointless as by the time you go enough usually you had better gear anyway. For people who think its going to be another WOD exactly must not have either played WOD or are totally not remembering what WOD was. There are already features that didnt exist in WOD that will be in shadowlands that arent just raiding and are going to be relevant/rewarding.

[Alvito]

Eh let the people that play for gear hit their BiS after all it normally lasts just 6 months

Heck I play all 3 specs on my main so technically for BiS I need
3-6 weapons depending on if DW is better
6 trinkets
6 rings because enchanting
Up to 30 other pieces

I am very happy to report even with a realistic end goal I still have a ton of stuff to do

It is great that you will or think you will have other things to do. As reasons to do mythic +, which is one of the most popular features now, go away the game will dry up rapidly. Now any dungeon can and will offer people loot, in Legion it was the same. Even if you didn't want gear itself you got AP. With Shadowlands mythic + will become reward dry very quickly and in some cases places will never have anything to incentivize people into going. All of this will amplify issues already present in the game, on the Alliance side for example it is a bigger challenge to run 10+ or 15+ keys that will only get much worse. Ion specifically said they want people to run more than just the 1 mythic + a week, but at the same time they are removing a major reason as to why people run them. In pretty much any version of the game when there was a bis list since BC you would still do heroic dungeons, because you were going for badges or whatever version of those that expansion had, you were also doing the heroic daily/weekly quest for other goodies. If people aren't given rewards and often multi tiered rewards they don't do content. While that might not alter your or some other people's desire to do things it will take plenty of people out of the player pool and with that doing things becomes more complicated and more people throw in the towel.

[Nubulous]

It is great that you will or think you will have other things to do. As reasons to do mythic +, which is one of the most popular features now, go away the game will dry up rapidly. Now any dungeon can and will offer people loot, in Legion it was the same. Even if you didn't want gear itself you got AP. With Shadowlands mythic + will become reward dry very quickly and in some cases places will never have anything to incentivize people into going. All of this will amplify issues already present in the game, on the Alliance side for example it is a bigger challenge to run 10+ or 15+ keys that will only get much worse. Ion specifically said they want people to run more than just the 1 mythic + a week, but at the same time they are removing a major reason as to why people run them. In pretty much any version of the game when there was a bis list since BC you would still do heroic dungeons, because you were going for badges or whatever version of those that expansion had, you were also doing the heroic daily/weekly quest for other goodies. If people aren't given rewards and often multi tiered rewards they don't do content. While that might not alter your or some other people's desire to do things it will take plenty of people out of the player pool and with that doing things becomes more complicated and more people throw in the towel.

Can you lay out the reward structure for Shadowlands M+ Id love to know.