9.0 General Discussion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The dialogue, the setting, the music, the shown imagery.
The entire cinematic literally screams "she did something bad!" in your face.

Not to mention that if the new player also watches the feature trailer, which they'll most likely do, i think they'll get that Bolvar is supposed to be the good one out of the 2.

Much is obvious but he'll argue Sylvanas isn't bad even when the end of everything is here.

[Sharby]

trolls. Already. Had. Green. Skin. Options.

- - - Updated - - -


They kind of already do that. Alliance was at no point forced to kill Talanji's dad but they did it anyway. But assassinating a nation's leader doesn't even get a mention in this apparent peace treatise.

Except it wasn't an assassination and calling it so is dishonest.

The Battle for Dazar'alor, unlike Teldrassil was a purely military strike. When the Alliance heroes confronted the King both Genn and Jaina gave him a chance to surrender, telling him that no more blood be shed. In his arrogance Rastakhan both insulted them and challenged them to fight and was defeated, after he was defeated the Alliance didn't even stick around to pillage the city or harm any citizens but immediately went on retreat.

This is also including the fact the Zandalari have declared war on the Alliance since MoP, they were never friendly towards them. There was no betrayal, no lies, no back-handed strategies, nothing shady. The Zandalari willingly aligned with the Horde whom they knew were the Alliance's biggest enemies in a time of war between the two factions. They had it coming and nothing the Alliance did in the city could even be considered morally grey.

[HailToTheKing]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but this take is super creepy and weird.

Is it really important to you that new players are bombarded with this specific plot event 15 minutes after buying the game? I genuinely don't understand this. Are you truly unable to put yourselves in the shoes of a brand new player?

How is that creepy?

[Ramz]

Except it wasn't an assassination and calling it so is dishonest.

The Battle for Dazar'alor, unlike Teldrassil was a purely military strike. When the Alliance heroes confronted the King both Genn and Jaina gave him a chance to surrender, telling him that no more blood be shed. In his arrogance Rastakhan both insulted them and challenged them to fight and was defeated, after he was defeated the Alliance didn't even stick around to pillage the city or harm any citizens but immediately went on retreat.

This is also including the fact the Zandalari have declared war on the Alliance since MoP, they were never friendly towards them. There was no betrayal, no lies, no back-handed strategies, nothing shady. The Zandalari willingly aligned with the Horde whom they knew were the Alliance's biggest enemies in a time of war between the two factions. They had it coming and nothing the Alliance did in the city could even be considered morally grey.

Yeah how dare Rastakhan be rude to people that sank half of his fleet, plundered his vault, laid havoc on streets and even killing shopping people, killed the high priests and assaulted him directly on his throne room and asked him to surrender him and his nation to be hostages to Alliance.

How inconsiderate of him - I guess.

And how dare he make alliances of his own. Only Alliance itself is allowed to do that apparently.

[Nagawithlegs]

That is an excuse for changing the explanation from "The Horde attacked Teldrassil" to "Sylvanas burned down Teldrassil". One is Blizzard covering their own ass on why Horde is blatantly the evil faction in BfA, the other is Blizzard removing an important plot point because writing for it was too boring.

It always was "Sylvanas burned Teldrassil" from day one, where Saurfang's book story shows that she manipulated them into doing it and lied about her true plans.

They just could not think of a way to implement the Horde player trying to stop the burning and failing (if they chose). Likely because players don't like losing.

[Sharby]

Yeah how dare Rastakhan be rude to people that sank half of his fleet, plundered his vault, laid havoc on streets and even killing shopping people, killed the high priests and assaulted him directly on his throne room and asked him to surrender him and his nation to be hostages to Alliance.

How inconsiderate of him - I guess.

And how dare he make alliances of his own. Only Alliance itself is allowed to do that apparently.

He was allowed to do whatever he wanted, but those actions have consequences. My point wasn't that he shouldn't have done what he did. But framing it as if the Alliance somehow betrayed the Zandalari and assassinated their king is false, or at best really twisting it.


Furthermore, every single enemy faced in the raid was a willing fighter, the Alliance didn't suddenly show up and start murdering whoever was nearby. The merchants knew they were there and decided to stand their ground and fight anyhow. Its a bit of a stretch to paint it as the Alliance killing randoms, unlike the Horde, who quite literally mass murdered thousands of innocents.

[Niwes]

sylvanas sylvanas sylvanas. omfg.

why do this thread derail every 20 pages or so in a fukin sylvanas thread, when its about 9.0 general discussion?

would be super nice if ppl (regardless their sylvanas stance) use the existing sylvanas threads instead start endless discussions in this thread.

would be great.

[Sondrelk]

It always was "Sylvanas burned Teldrassil" from day one, where Saurfang's book story shows that she manipulated them into doing it and lied about her true plans.

They just could not think of a way to implement the Horde player trying to stop the burning and failing (if they chose). Likely because players don't like losing.

"A good war" actually went to greath lengths to show how war-hungry the Horde was, the entire point of that novella was that Sylvanas DIDN'T burn down tree herself, but how she instead used the Hordes nature to her favor, to them to make them commit another atrocity

Regardless, not mentioning Teldrassil at all is a step below even what we got in BfA proper, which is the scaepgoating of Sylvanas when the story probably should have been more about the Horde going through some introspection on how this situation keeps happening.

[Raetary]

sylvanas sylvanas sylvanas. omfg.

why do this thread derail every 20 pages or so in a fukin sylvanas thread, when its about 9.0 general discussion?

Sylvanas is a key figure in the expansion.

Talking about her isn't derailing the thread.

[Yarathir]

It's been a bit of a wild ride for me diving into this. But it seems we are indeed not getting a green skin for Trolls.

I was surprised and against that first, given the Raventusk Tribe has been a member of the Horde forever. But it seems they updated those models in Cataclysm to use the bulky models. So I guess it makes sense not to give players green skins, if all green Trolls ingame currently are bulky ones.

I do still hope we're getting some more info on the skins that we do get available. The sandy skin and the icy skin would suggest the Sandfury and Winterax Tribes are either joining the Horde, or at least have a few members leaving their tribes to join the Horde. It's the Dark Troll skin that could really do with an explanation though, considering we've been told twice that they are basically extinct. And sure, we are creative people that can justify things realistically. But it should be easy enough for Blizz to actually confirm this.

I like the Dark Troll skin, personally, but BfA is really kicking them in the back over this

As for green skin for trolls-- I mean, I didn't see it for males yet, but I saw it for females. Was that a mistake?

As an aside, it might be unpopular for me to say this, but I feel like if they could give the Orcs a straight backed option on a whim, they can adjust the troll models at least slightly enough to make them seem more bulked up and brutish. Humans get whole new face shapes, Orcs have gotten a posture change, Trolls could get a bulked up body option to fit Forest Troll physique. And it would be really cool, imo.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

"A good war" actually went to greath lengths to show how war-hungry the Horde was, the entire point of that novella was that Sylvanas DIDN'T burn down tree herself, but how she instead used the Hordes nature to her favor, to them to make them commit another atrocity

Regardless, not mentioning Teldrassil at all is a step below even what we got in BfA proper, which is the scaepgoating of Sylvanas when the story probably should have been more about the Horde going through some introspection on how this situation keeps happening.

Not meaning to feed the flames but the extra stuff "A good war" had really should of been implemented ingame or said ingame. It adds extra context and without that extra context, well most people will go Sylvanas. Granted I know its probably hard to translate Good War novella into a game but if they had to use little books ingame I'd be fine with it.

Just wanna point that out. If some of the stuff wasn't important(It is, all considering) I wouldn't mind but my mind changed.

As an aside, it might be unpopular for me to say this, but I feel like if they could give the Orcs a straight backed option on a whim, they can adjust the troll models at least slightly enough to make them seem more bulked up and brutish. Humans get whole new face shapes, Orcs have gotten a posture change, Trolls could get a bulked up body option to fit Forest Troll physique. And it would be really cool, imo.

No issue with me with Green Trolls(Forest trolls whatever). Give it some extra story and I'm on board even if I won't play Horde.

[Yarathir]

It always was "Sylvanas burned Teldrassil" from day one, where Saurfang's book story shows that she manipulated them into doing it and lied about her true plans.

They just could not think of a way to implement the Horde player trying to stop the burning and failing (if they chose). Likely because players don't like losing.

For any person with a decently functioning brain, they did not and cannot ever buy into the "It was just Sylvanas" nonsense.

The Horde helped her waltz up to Teldrassil, Horde shamans strengthened the flames and then a massive portion of the Horde continued to do her bidding after not only Teldrassil, but also after she basically had her own soldiers be blighted and raised as skeletal servants at Lordaeron.

Saurfang's small rebellion and the Alliance's remaining numbers in 8.2.5 were said to be outnumbered vastly by the amount of Horde Sylvanas loyalists. She had a massive army and a bunch of resources, not up until the point she caused a genocide, not up until the point she killed her own soldiers, not up until she planned to brainwash Jaina's relative into a living bomb and not up until she imprisoned Baine. She had a massive army until she said they were 'all nothing.'

It was always the Horde. Pinning it all on Sylvanas is just the convenient scapegoat.

[huth]

They still start in BfA.

Yet they still don't see that cinematic without context. They see the SL one without context.

Why would a new player see that as evil? Why would a new player associate Sylvanas with the Horde & Bolvar with the Alliance? They both look like undead monsters. Why would you think the character declaring that she will "set us all free" is the bad person in this situation?

No idea. Never said they would. Just saying that the SL cinematic is the one they get to see when they boot up the client, not the BfA one.

[Sondrelk]

sylvanas sylvanas sylvanas. omfg.

why do this thread derail every 20 pages or so in a fukin sylvanas thread, when its about 9.0 general discussion?

would be super nice if ppl (regardless their sylvanas stance) use the existing sylvanas threads instead start endless discussions in this thread.

would be great.

Possible because this is a Shadowlands discussion thread, and Sylvanas is the known character all other discussion revolves around.

How do we travel to Shadowlands? Probably through the hole Sylvanas created.
Why is the Jailer suddenly a threat? Because Sylvanas fed him souls.
Who will be the bosses in Castle Nathria? Nathanos might be there, presumably on Sylvanas' orders.
Who will be the final boss of the expansion? Presumably the Jailer or Sylvanas.

Like it or not, Sylvanas is the woman of the hour and until she dies for good discussion around her won't stop. So just come ot peace with it.

[Nagawithlegs]

Regardless, not mentioning Teldrassil at all is a step below even what we got in BfA proper, which is the scaepgoating of Sylvanas when the story probably should have been more about the Horde going through some introspection on how this situation keeps happening.

This is probably because of something that people kept bringing up during BFA: players don't like it when the "NPC" portion of their faction is more important than they are.

Horde player characters were not as important as nameless swarthes of NPC fighters that didn't agree with them and kept propagating the war. It's a really shitty feeling and hell it's realistic too: people do NOT have much agency IRL if they are not the majority. I feel like that was the atmosphere they were trying to go with for Horde in BFA, and it's an interesting take (heroes trying to be heroes in a faction that at the moment is mostly villains) but it's not a great world to live in for two years at $15 a month.

Writing for the sake of writing is one thing. Writing a game that is meant to be a sort of escapist life-sim for people is another thing. And that's why we're getting the bubblegum and rainbows writing for races moving forward that says "both Alliance and Horde are heroes, deal with it".

[Yarathir]

He was allowed to do whatever he wanted, but those actions have consequences. My point wasn't that he shouldn't have done what he did. But framing it as if the Alliance somehow betrayed the Zandalari and assassinated their king is false, or at best really twisting it.


Furthermore, every single enemy faced in the raid was a willing fighter, the Alliance didn't suddenly show up and start murdering whoever was nearby. The merchants knew they were there and decided to stand their ground and fight anyhow. Its a bit of a stretch to paint it as the Alliance killing randoms, unlike the Horde, who quite literally mass murdered thousands of innocents.

Love how people forget to that the Zandalari were directly aiding in attacks against the Alliance and Kul Tiras.

No, the Zandalari weren't some neutral force that just got suddenly and treacherously assaulted by the Alliance. They were on the Horde's side even before officially becoming a part of it.

[Niwes]

Sylvanas is a key figure in the expansion.

Talking about her isn't derailing the thread.

yeah, in the right amount, yes. but rediscussing every fukin aspect of what happened sylvanas story wise in BfA and discussing that again and again and again, while discussing what sylvanas COULD do in SL ... has nothing to do with this thread.

discuss the already known story topics of SL here: fine.
discuss all thta sylvanas shit from past, about her character, character design, story and whtaever, here: not fine.

simple as that.

also, would be nice if moderators just here and there do their job (look at guidelines about thread derailing and hijacking) and clarify this somewhat. just to.... „moderate“ that thread somewhat. i think thats the reasons they are called „moderators“ once in the past....

[Nagawithlegs]

yeah, in the right amount, yes. but rediscussing every fukin aspect of what happened sylvanas story wise in BfA and discussing that again and again and again, while discussing what sylvanas COULD do in SL ... has nothing to do with this thread.

discuss the already known story topics of SL here: fine.
discuss all thta sylvanas shit from past, about her character, character design, story and whtaever here: not fine.

There's really not much to discuss about Sylvanas in SL aside from "is she a raid boss or not".

Everything points to yes, including her not appearing anywhere in the questing so far and probably not in Shadowlands itself aside from the opening and the Maw Raid.

[Sondrelk]

Not meaning to feed the flames but the extra stuff "A good war" had really should of been implemented ingame or said ingame. It adds extra context and without that extra context, well most people will go Sylvanas. Granted I know its probably hard to translate Good War novella into a game but if they had to use little books ingame I'd be fine with it.

Just wanna point that out. If some of the stuff wasn't important(It is, all considering) I wouldn't mind but my mind changed.





No issue with me with Green Trolls(Forest trolls whatever). Give it some extra story and I'm on board even if I won't play Horde.

It's a real shame, honestly. I don't think my hype for BfAs story was much higher than when i read that novella. Shame Blizzard didnt go more in that direction of introspection and commentary, and instead sloppily went for the same MoP storyline, ironically for an expansion that several times stated they wouldnt repeat MoP.

[Niwes]

Possible because this is a Shadowlands discussion thread, and Sylvanas is the known character all other discussion revolves around.

How do we travel to Shadowlands? Probably through the hole Sylvanas created.
Why is the Jailer suddenly a threat? Because Sylvanas fed him souls.
Who will be the bosses in Castle Nathria? Nathanos might be there, presumably on Sylvanas' orders.
Who will be the final boss of the expansion? Presumably the Jailer or Sylvanas.

Like it or not, Sylvanas is the woman of the hour and until she dies for good discussion around her won't stop. So just come ot peace with it.

you realize this thread is named „9.0 general discussion“ ? and not „SL Lore and Story“ or „Sylvanas lore in SL“ ?

there is a „9.0“ in the thread title. this is a version number. of wow. about the complete game/xpac. and this thread is about that. about wow retail 9.0. and not SL lore or Sylv lore.

this here should be about:

- 9.0 classes and class design
- 9.0 game design
- 9.0 „systems“
- 9.0 gear
- 9.0 dungeons and raids
- 9.0 reward systems
- 9.0 quests
- 9.0 story
- 9.0 gfx and design
- 9.0 technical stuff
- 9.0 world design and immersion
- 9.0 .... you got it

and not about:

- 9.0 story (especially sylvanas)

its not rocket science.

honestly...