Arthas' story is over

[Velshin]

I think most people agree that killing illidan was a mistake and lorewise TBC was a shitshow and I'm sure there was some idea floating around blizzard to bring him back for a while. That doesn't mean they didn't bringing illidan back wasn't at least in part motivated by money.

Besides the conceit of shadowlands is its the afterlife, so they can 'bring him back' for some easy nostalgia subs without having to return him to life or to have him stick around.

Well it is true part of bringing Illidan back is also motivated by hype and money and also to finish off Legion story which basically TBC v2. I am not saying it is impossible to bring Arthas back briefly but if they do? he will definitely will not be as Illidan in legion because Arthas has his story developed, fleshed out, and finished while Illidan in TBC was not fleshed out at all which is the main reason why they brought him back in Legion.

[Shiza]

It ruins his arch. He's dead, it's over and he had his tragic story. The same reason why shit like Picard sucks.

Modern audiences just clap when they recognize someone or something and cheer though, so thats why storytelling sucks nowadays in general.

His arc was kinda shit though. He was a generic villain in Wrath of the Lichking and ended up being killed by a random quest npc from classic who suddenly turned into his arch-nemesis despite never having anything to do with him, just because Chris Metzen kept pushing his self-insert Mary Sue Power Fantasies. How was that a good end to his storyline?

But then again, considering that you just bashed the critically acclaimed Picard show and somehow seem to think that Metzen pushing his Mary Sue Self Insert Power Fantasies in which his Paladin Twink kills Arthas Menethil with the Ashbringer, two plotlines he wasn't in any shape or form ever involved in the slightest before he randomly became the Ashbringer and Arthas Arch-Nemesis out of nowhere in the DK Starter Zone, I think you shouldn't discuss quality storytelling.

- - - Updated - - -

Well it is true part of bringing Illidan back is also motivated by hype and money and also to finish off Legion story which basically TBC v2. I am not saying it is impossible to bring Arthas back briefly but if they do? he will definitely will not be as Illidan in legion because Arthas has his story developed, fleshed out, and finished while Illidan in TBC was not fleshed out at all which is the main reason why they brought him back in Legion.

He has not. He had no Story in Wotlk, no arc, nothing. He was just a generic Villain with a famous name to push Chris Metzen Paladin Mary Sue Self-Insert who suddenly turned into Arthas definitive Arch-Nemesis and the Ashbringer despite having no involvement with either plotline and just being the center of an interesting yet ultimately not that central questline back in classic, just because Metzen had this extensive need to push his Self-Inserts. He was killed off due to Metzens ego-trip and it is beyond me how people who criticize Green Jesus can defend the wotlk despite it being the same story just with a less known, less popular, less iconic and less fitting Self-Insert Mary Sue of Metzen.

[Thage]

I'm still hoping for a Bolvar vs. Sylvanas rematch with a different ending, myself. Though I wouldn't be at all upset if we got an Arthas vs. Sylvanas showdown either.

So long as we get to Sparta-kick either Nathanos or Sylvanas off the top of Torghast, I'm fine with whoever wants to jump in and get a slice of that action.

[Dellis0991]

They should focus on the DKs we actually have right now, like Bolvar, Sally, Nazgrim, Thoras, Koltira, Thassarian, Darion instead of using Shadowlands to try and milk Arthas' large fanbase. I have doubts they'll do that though.

This is a expansion centered on the forces of death and the afterlife, Arthas's role in this expansion is vastly unavoidable. This expansion has nothing to do with milking his fanbase (if any it's Sylvanas fanbase that is being milked).

[Eapoe]

To be honest, i would like him to become a main protagonist, redeeming himself for what he did...

It would be epic

So Sylvanas can’t redeem herself, but Illidan and Arthas can because they’re cool?

[Soon-TM]

So long as we get to Sparta-kick either Nathanos or Sylvanas off the top of Torghast, I'm fine with whoever wants to jump in and get a slice of that action.

Well, since apparently we are killing Nathanos in the opening raid of SL, you should be happy. Now, Sylvanas? She's Danuser's golden (pun not intended) child, I can easily see her getting even more powerups which we will likely need a narrative asspull to beat, or even worse, a full fledged Kerrigan-isation /shiver

[Velshin]

His arc was kinda shit though. He was a generic villain in Wrath of the Lichking and ended up being killed by a random quest npc from classic who suddenly turned into his arch-nemesis despite never having anything to do with him, just because Chris Metzen kept pushing his self-insert Mary Sue Power Fantasies. How was that a good end to his storyline?

But then again, considering that you just bashed the critically acclaimed Picard show and somehow seem to think that Metzen pushing his Mary Sue Self Insert Power Fantasies in which his Paladin Twink kills Arthas Menethil with the Ashbringer, two plotlines he wasn't in any shape or form ever involved in the slightest before he randomly became the Ashbringer and Arthas Arch-Nemesis out of nowhere in the DK Starter Zone, I think you shouldn't discuss quality storytelling.

- - - Updated - - -



He has not. He had no Story in Wotlk, no arc, nothing. He was just a generic Villain with a famous name to push Chris Metzen Paladin Mary Sue Self-Insert who suddenly turned into Arthas definitive Arch-Nemesis and the Ashbringer despite having no involvement with either plotline and just being the center of an interesting yet ultimately not that central questline back in classic, just because Metzen had this extensive need to push his Self-Inserts. He was killed off due to Metzens ego-trip and it is beyond me how people who criticize Green Jesus can defend the wotlk despite it being the same story just with a less known, less popular, less iconic and less fitting Self-Insert Mary Sue of Metzen.

Clearly you haven't played or pay attention then. Arthas story was pretty much completed at the end of Warcraft III where he was the central character. Illidan didn't have his own game as a main central character really not even his role in Legion is as big as Arthas in Warcraft III and Wotlk. I am not saying Arthas story in Wotlk expansion was great or masterpiece hell no it was laughable and predictable but it was complete. As a Lich king he wanted to create an army of undead and want you (the main hero of Azeroth) to be his strongest champion. That is basically his main goal in Wotlk which is why he was taunting you the entire time you were in Northrend and pretty much there in almost every major questline there. Illidan in TBC barely had any impact the only one time you actually see glimpse of him in Outland (other than Black Temple raid obviously) is the Netherwing reputation questline where he briefly appeared and confronted the fel orcs in Netherwing area in Shadowmoon Valley area.

[McNeil]

Death didn't hold Illidan back from coming back to life. Not that I want Arthas alive aswell but there is room for some interaction with a pre-LK Arthas and learn something from his perspective from what he endured and possibly saw as the LK. Arthas never wanted to become a monster, so in some way he might be able to help us and then possibly redeem his spirit. Also I would love to see him interact with Jaina and Sylvanas again.

[shuubu]

Unless they want it to be a surprise.

Would be kind of silly to miss such a great marketing gimmick for a simple surprise to people who already bought the game.

Personally I'd really want to see Arthas and hope he would get to kill Sylvanas (again).

[Nathreim]

Blizz of today would just ruin him. They should not be allowed to write any legacy characters.

[united]

The amount of people saying Arthas should kill Sylvanas to redeem himself or whatever has me shaking my head. That’s the last thing that should happen. If anyone kills Sylvanas it should be someone like Greymane or Tyrande. People that Sylvanas herself has wronged.

It shouldn’t be the guy that turned her into what she is in the first place. It would send off a really gross message. Plus I don’t know how Arthas killing Sylvanas would redeem him (it wouldn’t)

Just think lorewise about the answer to this question. If Arthas killed Sylvanas, would that mean the Ebon Blade would suddenly be cool with him? What about Quel’thalas? Or the dead people from Stratholme? Jaina? Uther? Everyone from Lordaeron? How about the people that followed him loyally to Northrend, only to be killed and raised? How does killing one person who was also a victim of his Lich King reign redeem him of any of that?

If you think Sylvanas isn’t deserving of a redemption story I don’t know why Arthas would be. For once I think if they make a character bad they should stick to their convictions. Arthas can and should show great remorse for all the atrocities he committed as the Lich King, but a redemption story would be forced.

Now, as for the original topic. Bolvar is the new Lich King, we have 4 new Horsemen. In addition to that we also have other DK characters that have been there since Wrath like Thassarian. They should expand on their stories, rather than waste their time with an Arthas redemption arc.

[Aucald]

Would be kind of silly to miss such a great marketing gimmick for a simple surprise to people who already bought the game.

Personally I'd really want to see Arthas and hope he would get to kill Sylvanas (again).

Hype is already at fever pitch now, they probably don't need the additional hype - and it could be an 11th hour salvo to pull in yet more subs during Shadowlands live run as well. It'll probably just be a cameo type of deal, though; and I don't think Arthas will be a main character in any sense.

[Mic_128]

Unless they want it to be a surprise.

Everyone will know after Dataminers dig up his name in the files, 2 minutes after they get at that build of the Alpha.

Arthas never wanted to become a monster, so in some way he might be able to help us and then possibly redeem his spirit.

Completely glossing over the BS he did, even before touching Frostmourne? Razing a city, disbanding the Order of the Silver hand for not joining him, going against the direct orders of his father (and killing the messenger?), leading his troops to Northrend, hiring mercenaries to burn his own mens boats, turning on the mercenaries and goading his men into attacking the mercenaries...all before touching the blade.

Arthas was a dick. I don't see any reason why he deserves redemption.

[Aucald]

Everyone will know after Dataminers dig up his name in the files, 2 minutes after they get at that build of the Alpha.

Who's to say he'll be in the Alpha content? Might appear in a later end-game scenario in 9.1 or beyond. Could also be completely encrypted - the same way a lot of the later content in BfA was on the PTR servers.

[Saltysquidoon]

The amount of people saying Arthas should kill Sylvanas to redeem himself or whatever has me shaking my head. That’s the last thing that should happen. If anyone kills Sylvanas it should be someone like Greymane or Tyrande. People that Sylvanas herself has wronged.

You mean like how it should have been Jaina, Slyvanas and Mauradin to help us bring down Arthas, not Mary Suedring and the Mcguffinbringer?

I don't necessarily think Arthas should have a large part in shadowlands. But if he is who says he's going to be redeemed? They could make him the last-second twist villain (ideally after ripping sylvanas' soul out and casting it into oblivion).

[Scrysis]

I would assume they would have already said this with a very loud voice if he would be in this xpack.

They kind of have already. Both the opening cinematic for Shadowlands has several of allusions to Arthas as Lich King, not Bolvar. Specifically, listen to Sylvanas' monologue as she climbs the steps. He's almost certainly going to be an important facet of the expansion.

This is a expansion centered on the forces of death and the afterlife, Arthas's role in this expansion is vastly unavoidable. This expansion has nothing to do with milking his fanbase (if any it's Sylvanas fanbase that is being milked).

Yup. Not only that, but both Sylvanas and Bolvar have strong narrative ties to Arthas specifically, which makes this doubly true.

So Sylvanas can’t redeem herself, but Illidan and Arthas can because they’re cool?

There are a couple of things in Wrath that point to Arthas being open for a redemption arc -- the comments from Terenas about how rampaging scourge would have been worse than Arthas being Lich King if they were loose; the fact that A) Arthas had a bit of humanity in the form of his heart & B) how Tirion smashing it did terrible damage to him; his last words which, in the way they were said, have a strong interpretation that the true spirit of Arthas wasn't entirely in control and that it was a torment; and most telling of all, the mementos that Arthas held onto from his human life that you loot at the end of the Shadowmourne questline. These suggest the possibility of redemption (not saying that it will happen, just that there is evidence that it could) as the gestalt personality of the Lich King (as well as the madness that overtook him just prior) wasn't truly Arthas.

Sylvanas doesn't really have the excuse of being under a gestalt mind-meld with a second, malevolent personality. She's been free for a long time. And counter to what some would have you think, Sylvanas, in the World of Warcraft, has always been depicted as a wicked being. Even in Vanilla, she was directly responsible for the Royal Apothecary and the development of blight. And before we get to the ethics of war, the Forsaken have just as much access to swords and arrows, so all the blight does is form a weapon of mass destruction that screws over their "allies" as well as their enemies.

Then you have more recent events. In Legion, she was declared warchief at the beginning of the expac, but she goes on a wild goose chase for an artifact rather than acting as a warchief and guiding the entirety of the Horde. And she conspires with Helya, a direct enemy, which isn't logical if she has any interest in the welfare of anyone other than herself. She destroyed the Desolate Council (which, counter to arguments, hurts the Forsaken), and then in the key scene of Before the Storm, she shoots everyone who showed up, primarily because she'd be losing control over anyone who was even interested in reconciliation. The Forsaken NEVER mattered to her, other than a meat shield.

After 15 years of straight storytelling without even a glimmer of redeeming qualities, pulling off a believable redemption story arc with Sylvanas will be . . . difficult. Not only that, but Blizzard rightfully want to change the stale and stagnant formula they've been using all these years. That means that Horde will have to be a bit less bloodthirsty (and now they have the cast of characters to do it). Sylvanas and the old school Forsaken don't fit in the Horde any more, and it's time to make the Forsaken less of a two-dimensional race.

Clearly you haven't played or pay attention then. Arthas story was pretty much completed at the end of Warcraft III where he was the central character. Illidan didn't have his own game as a main central character really not even his role in Legion is as big as Arthas in Warcraft III and Wotlk. I am not saying Arthas story in Wotlk expansion was great or masterpiece hell no it was laughable and predictable but it was complete. As a Lich king he wanted to create an army of undead and want you (the main hero of Azeroth) to be his strongest champion. That is basically his main goal in Wotlk which is why he was taunting you the entire time you were in Northrend and pretty much there in almost every major questline there. Illidan in TBC barely had any impact the only one time you actually see glimpse of him in Outland (other than Black Temple raid obviously) is the Netherwing reputation questline where he briefly appeared and confronted the fel orcs in Netherwing area in Shadowmoon Valley area.

Being a central character and having a completed story arc are two different things. Arthas was ALWAYS going to come back if WoW existed long enough. When Warcraft III ended, he merged with Ner'zhul and became the Lich King -- controlling a massive northern continent and becoming a huge threat. So WoW had to confront that. Then, when he was defeated, he left his legacy behind -- the remaining scourge, and those he created, such as the deathknights and Sylvanas. He's actually key to Sylvanas, so you probably could have predicted that he'd come back in a major fashion some how back in Legion when they made her Warchief and put her in the spotlight. Going to go visit the afterlife doubles-down on this. You may not be happy about it, but we're going to see Arthas again.

The amount of people saying Arthas should kill Sylvanas to redeem himself or whatever has me shaking my head. That’s the last thing that should happen. If anyone kills Sylvanas it should be someone like Greymane or Tyrande. People that Sylvanas herself has wronged.

It shouldn’t be the guy that turned her into what she is in the first place. It would send off a really gross message. Plus I don’t know how Arthas killing Sylvanas would redeem him (it wouldn’t)

Just think lorewise about the answer to this question. If Arthas killed Sylvanas, would that mean the Ebon Blade would suddenly be cool with him? What about Quel’thalas? Or the dead people from Stratholme? Jaina? Uther? Everyone from Lordaeron? How about the people that followed him loyally to Northrend, only to be killed and raised? How does killing one person who was also a victim of his Lich King reign redeem him of any of that?

If you think Sylvanas isn’t deserving of a redemption story I don’t know why Arthas would be. For once I think if they make a character bad they should stick to their convictions. Arthas can and should show great remorse for all the atrocities he committed as the Lich King, but a redemption story would be forced.

Now, as for the original topic. Bolvar is the new Lich King, we have 4 new Horsemen. In addition to that we also have other DK characters that have been there since Wrath like Thassarian. They should expand on their stories, rather than waste their time with an Arthas redemption arc.

I'm more afraid of a Sylvanas redemption arc, to be honest. A Sylvanas redemption arc, with her current personality, would feel forced. And if they were to do an Arthas redemption arc, it wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) involve Sylvanas. It should involve Uther instead. Personally, for Sylvanas, I'd go for a karmic justice route. We defeat the jailer, and Sylvanas is forced to take is place -- trapped in that horrific darkness she has so come to fear, and alone, as self-interests have demanded. Then she'd know what a true prison is like. .. for all eternity.

[Saltysquidoon]

There are a couple of things in Wrath that point to Arthas being open for a redemption arc -- the comments from Terenas about how rampaging scourge would have been worse than Arthas being Lich King if they were loose; the fact that A) Arthas had a bit of humanity in the form of his heart & B) how Tirion smashing it did terrible damage to him; his last words which, in the way they were said, have a strong interpretation that the true spirit of Arthas wasn't entirely in control and that it was a torment; and most telling of all, the mementos that Arthas held onto from his human life that you loot at the end of the Shadowmourne questline. These suggest the possibility of redemption (not saying that it will happen, just that there is evidence that it could) as the gestalt personality of the Lich King (as well as the madness that overtook him just prior) wasn't truly Arthas.

Specifically, as this relates to Arthas (not the bansheeQWEEEEEEEN), pre/during icc people were predicting that Arthas would be 'redeemed' (as was the meme about blizzard storytelling at the time), blizzard simply responded 'not everyone gets a redemption arc'. I think that's fine for Arthas, he was a villain after all (even taking into account the mitigating factors).
There is no reason simply because he is (very) likely to appear in shadowlands that he has to be redeemed. He could also not impact the narrative and appear as a vision or he could appear as a villain.

[Tyrannica]

I think blizzard did it all wrong, tbh.

Arthas should have never ended in Wotlk, Illidan was really wasted in TBC, too.

Especially, how they handled Illidan in TBC was really disgusting, because of this, i was more than ok, that Blizz brought him back in Legion.

However, i prefered him as an Antihero, with a twist, that twist was removed in Legion...i thought he was after power, not only to defeat the legion, but to impress Tyrande.


There is no wrong in bringing Arthas back, actually i think he should have been back some expansions ago, allready, i mean what was the scourge and their followers, and KT doing all this time?

But i prefere not to see a weak redemption story, Arthas should be the very main villain of WoW, not Sargeras, Void Lords or whatever else.(Sylvanas lol, he created her!)

Current Power levels do not really mean much. You can see this in D&D Stories(books) or current BfA with Sylvanas. In theory Arthas could gain as much power as a Voidlord or Pantheon Titan, he gained power by Frostmourne and later the helm of domination, this does not mean he can no longer gain even more power, in D&D some mortals could become gods, like Cyric, who started as chaotic evil and quite mortal thief.

I am surprised, that people are so shortminded and can't see this. Talking about Sargeras, Void Lords etc. They were never really in the center of the story and are more vague side things in the background lore. Like, we couldn't even face and fight Sargeras in Legion - he was even cut to size by a pantheon titan spell. *lol*

Well, at this point the lore is a bit of a joke. Lets get a good D&D writer in here!

This games needs some twists, to go into a good direction with lore, and Arthas could be that Twist(or KT) and his story wasn't just about frostmourne.

[Eapoe]

They kind of have already. Both the opening cinematic for Shadowlands has several of allusions to Arthas as Lich King, not Bolvar. Specifically, listen to Sylvanas' monologue as she climbs the steps. He's almost certainly going to be an important facet of the expansion.



Yup. Not only that, but both Sylvanas and Bolvar have strong narrative ties to Arthas specifically, which makes this doubly true.



There are a couple of things in Wrath that point to Arthas being open for a redemption arc -- the comments from Terenas about how rampaging scourge would have been worse than Arthas being Lich King if they were loose; the fact that A) Arthas had a bit of humanity in the form of his heart & B) how Tirion smashing it did terrible damage to him; his last words which, in the way they were said, have a strong interpretation that the true spirit of Arthas wasn't entirely in control and that it was a torment; and most telling of all, the mementos that Arthas held onto from his human life that you loot at the end of the Shadowmourne questline. These suggest the possibility of redemption (not saying that it will happen, just that there is evidence that it could) as the gestalt personality of the Lich King (as well as the madness that overtook him just prior) wasn't truly Arthas.

Sylvanas doesn't really have the excuse of being under a gestalt mind-meld with a second, malevolent personality. She's been free for a long time. And counter to what some would have you think, Sylvanas, in the World of Warcraft, has always been depicted as a wicked being. Even in Vanilla, she was directly responsible for the Royal Apothecary and the development of blight. And before we get to the ethics of war, the Forsaken have just as much access to swords and arrows, so all the blight does is form a weapon of mass destruction that screws over their "allies" as well as their enemies.

Then you have more recent events. In Legion, she was declared warchief at the beginning of the expac, but she goes on a wild goose chase for an artifact rather than acting as a warchief and guiding the entirety of the Horde. And she conspires with Helya, a direct enemy, which isn't logical if she has any interest in the welfare of anyone other than herself. She destroyed the Desolate Council (which, counter to arguments, hurts the Forsaken), and then in the key scene of Before the Storm, she shoots everyone who showed up, primarily because she'd be losing control over anyone who was even interested in reconciliation. The Forsaken NEVER mattered to her, other than a meat shield.

After 15 years of straight storytelling without even a glimmer of redeeming qualities, pulling off a believable redemption story arc with Sylvanas will be . . . difficult. Not only that, but Blizzard rightfully want to change the stale and stagnant formula they've been using all these years. That means that Horde will have to be a bit less bloodthirsty (and now they have the cast of characters to do it). Sylvanas and the old school Forsaken don't fit in the Horde any more, and it's time to make the Forsaken less of a two-dimensional race.



Being a central character and having a completed story arc are two different things. Arthas was ALWAYS going to come back if WoW existed long enough. When Warcraft III ended, he merged with Ner'zhul and became the Lich King -- controlling a massive northern continent and becoming a huge threat. So WoW had to confront that. Then, when he was defeated, he left his legacy behind -- the remaining scourge, and those he created, such as the deathknights and Sylvanas. He's actually key to Sylvanas, so you probably could have predicted that he'd come back in a major fashion some how back in Legion when they made her Warchief and put her in the spotlight. Going to go visit the afterlife doubles-down on this. You may not be happy about it, but we're going to see Arthas again.



I'm more afraid of a Sylvanas redemption arc, to be honest. A Sylvanas redemption arc, with her current personality, would feel forced. And if they were to do an Arthas redemption arc, it wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) involve Sylvanas. It should involve Uther instead. Personally, for Sylvanas, I'd go for a karmic justice route. We defeat the jailer, and Sylvanas is forced to take is place -- trapped in that horrific darkness she has so come to fear, and alone, as self-interests have demanded. Then she'd know what a true prison is like. .. for all eternity.

Yeah...no. Spin it how you want, it’s just love/hate or a character or the person who writes them that wants a redemption for Arthas but cant stand one for Sylvanas.
Even before he was corrupted, Arthas still massacred an entire city. Illidan makes no sense at all except to retcon everything, which still makes no sense.
I’m not saying I want Syl to have a redemption, I just don’t think Arthas exactly deserves one either. Why can’t his story just be done?

[Unholyground]

I am betting we will be rescuing Tyrion from the Maw, Arthas is likely in one of the zones.