To whom who agreed that accessibility was healthy for WoW

[TheRevenantHero]

Nope, they actually don't. Most games companies hire psychologists to study how their player base responds to various things, specifically because they're not educated in it.

Don't bother. The conversation will go nowhere. Elias01 typically takes his own opinions and declares them as fact all the time. Just let him argue with himself. He is virtually incapable of admitting he's wrong.

[Kolvarg]

You are doing EXACTLY what you are accusing me of: Exactly! In my case, however, I am not intending to tell you you are wrong, merely that your points are completely subjuective. This conversation is completely subjective.

I've listed how the game incentivizes being social. You and others on your side ignore them. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away.

I'm not. I gave multiple reasonings in previous points which you have not addressed, including ones that I made to address and counter the few points that you made. If I missed some, feel free to point which one.

There's different degrees of subjectivity. In this case I'm defending that 1) how a game is designed influences an objective measure of "social", and 2) the changes to game design that WoW had through the times has lead this objective measure to go down.

You are trying to counter this by defending it's subjective, but a personal experience of something objective will always be subjective. You are disproving absolutely nothing.

Here's an analogy: Humans have more difficulty doing physical activities as they get older (objective fact). The fact that there are some or even many people who actually became more physically active as they got older (subjective experience) does not disprove the objective fact.

Saying the game is less social is not saying the game can't be social.

If you want to defend a game can't be social or not social, and is 100% on the players, then fine, argue for that. Don't just fallback to that when you have no other ways of trying to argue that the game has not become less social. The game can't be unable to be social and still be as social as it ever was at the same time.

What happened to it for you? For me I also continued playing with a lot of those same people. The mechanism through which I communicated with them may have changed, but gaming with them did not. Point: new mechanisms are in place to make the game as social if not more social.

I'm not saying what happened to the people you met through OpenRaid, I meant the actual OpenRaid as a tool.

As soon as the new LFG tool came out, OpenRaid entered a steep decline and by Legion it was essentially dead.

Or, in other words: A new and improved accessibility feature that allowed players to reach a vastly superior number of other players with great ease completely killed off a big social network that provided a much better and more social experience than LFG ever can.

[Big Thanks]

Don't bother. The conversation will go nowhere. Elias01 typically takes his own opinions and declares them as fact all the time. Just let him argue with himself. He is virtually incapable of admitting he's wrong.

From a person who gets replied constantly by posts like this.
I refuse to use the term "IMO" in every single post i make on MMO-C

People tell me constantly i "gospel my opinions as facts"

How do i do this? I have no fucking idea.
Is it because i didnt use the term IMO every single post i make?

Also, there is nothing wrong with having an opinion...and sticking with that opinion...unless is proven wrong by science or something and is factually wrong

[TheRevenantHero]

From a person who gets replied constantly by posts like this.
I refuse to use the term "IMO" in every single post i make on MMO-C

People tell me constantly i "gospel my opinions as facts"

How do i do this? I have no fucking idea.
Is it because i didnt use the term IMO every single post i make?

Also, there is nothing wrong with having an opinion...and sticking with that opinion...unless is proven wrong by science or something and is factually wrong

That's the thing, though. Every time he throws out his opinion he declares it is fact. It's fine to have opinions but you need to understand they are just that...opinions. When you make statements and act like it is a FACT despite it being an opinion, that's when there's an issue.

[glowpipe]

Needless to say. If everything in wow revolved around me having to be dependant on other players to enjoy my game. I would not be playing wow still.

[callipygoustp]

As soon as the new LFG tool came out, OpenRaid entered a steep decline and by Legion it was essentially dead.

I was responding to your thoughts point by point; mainly re-iterating that they were all subjective. And then I cam across the above comment. Utter bullshit. LFG came out during Cata. During MoP and WoD OpenRAid, for me, was huge; the OpenRaid community during both expansions was huge The bulk of my raiding on alts, if not all of the raiding I did on my alts, was done through OpenRaid. And this is where I now consider you to be completely full of shit.

------
As I've said before, the game is, and always has been, as social as the player allows it to be. If the game feels less social to you, that is on YOU.

[Linkedblade]

You were wrong. Admit it.

The Ex CEO of Blizzard even admits that it killed the social aspects of a social game.

Update

I am not going to reply to all of your comments, but instead check out this video, it’s pretty much spot on, on why accessibility ruined the game.

Oh and to those who say “wotlk had accessibility features and it increased subs” - Not really. Wotlk had badges which made you to play the game for many hours a time to buy one epic. These days you can get an epic doing regular quests. So please go away with your logic. Subs increased by the end of tbc but it flatlined during wotlk launch, with a small bump during uldular and Icecrown, after that it declined. Because “accessibility” easy epics for the noobs

[video=youtube;cEzhg6HtASU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEzhg6HtASU[video]

The decline after Wrath was probably do to other things, not more accessibility. Most people felt that the story was done. And they walked back a lot of the accessibility that the Wrath badge system has created. Initially cata heroics were actually hard, and that turned people away.

[Elias01]

The decline after Wrath was probably do to other things, not more accessibility. Most people felt that the story was done. And they walked back a lot of the accessibility that the Wrath badge system has created. Initially cata heroics were actually hard, and that turned people away.

Decline was alredy during WOTLK and it was beocuse of aceessability. Many old players have quit becouse of stuff like LFG, faceroll dungeons and raids, etc... If you didnt notice WOTLK player grow was only 500k players which means there was lot of players quiting game during wotlk.

[Beuargh]

You were wrong. Admit it.

OMG you were right!! you won the internet!!

here, a cookie for you..... your e-dick just doubled it's size! congratz

does it change anything about the game? I'm not sure... but hey! you won the internet anyway right? xD

what a pointless thread. this place won't stop going downhill

[RobertMugabe]

You were wrong. Admit it.

The Ex CEO of Blizzard even admits that it killed the social aspects of a social game.

Update

I am not going to reply to all of your comments, but instead check out this video, it’s pretty much spot on, on why accessibility ruined the game.

Oh and to those who say “wotlk had accessibility features and it increased subs” - Not really. Wotlk had badges which made you to play the game for many hours a time to buy one epic. These days you can get an epic doing regular quests. So please go away with your logic. Subs increased by the end of tbc but it flatlined during wotlk launch, with a small bump during uldular and Icecrown, after that it declined. Because “accessibility” easy epics for the noobs

So many years later and people still believe in this crap that so-called “accessibility” changes have ruined the game.

Also it's not like we already have billions and billions of threads exactly like this. Thanks for repeating the same shit and adding nothing new to the discussion ffs. Just because you say something doesn't mean it's true. You have provided nothing to back up your claims, except that subs have flattened during wrath and after that they have only fallen, which means nothing (considering there are hundreds of other factors you simply ignore), especially not because TBC added so much “accessibility” too and this was were WoW has seen the highest growth.

The biggest irony of all this is that Cataclysm was so much more "hardcore" than Wrath and only made things more difficult for the average player to get into endgame content... and yet this was the expansion where the subs finally started dropping. Explain that maybe? Or how the situation stabilized way more during MoP, which had stable player numbers despite being so accessible and easy access to endgame content. It's only major criticism was its theme. Overall, Wrath and MoP are often seen as the best expansions ever.

(and don't get me started on BfA. BfA right now is pretty much anything, but it's absolutely not accessible lmao... and oh look, subs aren't great.)

0 IQ thread.

[Big Thanks]

As I've said before, the game is, and always has been, as social as the player allows it to be.

Players dont allow anything.
Players are constricted by the rules of the game.

Players are victims to game design

And game design tells them to be antisocial

If the game feels less social to you, that is on YOU.

Wrong because ^^above^^ and ofcourse...i need to say "IMO" otherwise is a crapshow of 10 different people telling me "well thats just your opinion man"

edit: As i said this, the new poster above me made a post saying "thats just your opinion bro"

[TheRevenantHero]

Decline was alredy during WOTLK and it was beocuse of aceessability. Many old players have quit becouse of stuff like LFG, faceroll dungeons and raids, etc... If you didnt notice WOTLK player grow was only 500k players which means there was lot of players quiting game during wotlk.

Except the numbers prove you wrong. Wrath saw the highest number of subs the game has ever had over the course of the ENTIRE expansion. You really need to stop trying to push your opinions about accessability killing the game because you're 100% wrong.

[callipygoustp]

Players dont allow anything.
Players are constricted by the rules of the game.

Players are victims to game design

And game design tells them to be antisocial

Plenty of evidence to the contrary.

[Big Thanks]

Plenty of evidence to the contrary.

May i add to my previous statement "the the majority of the game"
The game design tells them to be antisocial "to the majority of the game"

[Erlking]

I can see advantages and disadvantages of both side. For example now a days I play wow only few hours a week, so the accessibility helps me find a group to do contents. On the other hand I do remember I used to know so many more people in game before the introduction of things like group finder because at that time you needed to be connected to do content but also it required a lot more time. It might be nostalgia but I think those runs before group finder were more fun because you tended to play with same people, if you enjoyed playing with someone you would add them. Now people dont even talk in groups, kill things fast, get it over with.

[rrayy]

Decline was alredy during WOTLK and it was beocuse of aceessability. Many old players have quit becouse of stuff like LFG, faceroll dungeons and raids, etc... If you didnt notice WOTLK player grow was only 500k players which means there was lot of players quiting game during wotlk.

Prove it. Unless you talked to every single person who quit, you know nothing. Your claims are nothing more than a projection of the narrative you believe in onto the players. The real facts are that players quit for a variety of reasons and there is no one singular reason for everyone quitting.

[M1r4g3]

Plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Nope, quite the opposite, you are free to research how human psychology works yourself, and come back to us with your factual findings.

May i add to my previous statement "the the majority of the game"
The game design tells them to be antisocial "to the majority of the game"

People like him don't have even the most basic understanding on how humans work, its just weird...

[callipygoustp]

May i add to my previous statement "the the majority of the game"
The game design tells them to be antisocial "to the majority of the game"

Made up conclusions. For plenty of us the game is as social, or more social, than it has ever been.

If its not for you.... well, that's on you.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope, quite the opposite, you are free to research how human psychology works yourself, and come back to us with your factual findings.

I don't need to research human psychology to know the game is more social for me. Plenty of people feel the same as I. As far as I'm concerned the the "game is less social" crowd is akin to the "wow is dying" crowd.

[Kolvarg]

I was responding to your thoughts point by point; mainly re-iterating that they were all subjective. And then I cam across the above comment. Utter bullshit. LFG came out during Cata. During MoP and WoD OpenRAid, for me, was huge; the OpenRaid community during both expansions was huge The bulk of my raiding on alts, if not all of the raiding I did on my alts, was done through OpenRaid. And this is where I now consider you to be completely full of shit.

------
As I've said before, the game is, and always has been, as social as the player allows it to be. If the game feels less social to you, that is on YOU.

Or in other words, as soon as you caught one side point that you might actually categorically disprove, you choose to purposefully ignore everything else I've said, and put everything on a bold generalization that because I'm wrong about this I must be wrong about everything. Because that's how discussions work, I guess.

I'm pretty sure WoD introduced a big revamp to the LFG system (the current iteration of it), but I could be misremembering, sure. I know for sure that it was with WoD that the LFG had a huge boom and became mainstream viable for raiding and other activities - if it wasn't partially because of a revamp to the LFG coming out, it was because of the changes to the raid structure that WoD introduced.

So the point still stands: A design change is one of the big factors of the decline of OR. Or in other words, game design influences how players interact with the game and other players, therefore it influences how social a game is.


How sweet a food is will always depend on the person who is tasting said food. Doesn't change the fact that there are sweet foods and non-sweet foods, regardless of how sweet or non sweet they taste to YOU.

[callipygoustp]

Or in other words, as soon as you caught one side point that you might actually categorically disprove, you choose to purposefully ignore everything else I've said, and put everything on a bold generalization that because I'm wrong about this I must be wrong about everything. Because that's how discussions work, I guess.

Or I just realized you'll say what ever you have to say to try and make a point. Done.

I'm pretty sure WoD introduced a big revamp to the LFG system, but I could be misremembering. I know for sure that it was with WoD that the LFG had a huge boom and became mainstream viable for raiding and other activities - if it wasn't partially because of a revamp to the LFG coming out, it was because of the changes to the raid structure that WoD introduced.

Or you could just look it up.

So the point still stands: A design change is one of the big factors of the decline of OR. Or in other words, game design influences how players interact with the game and other players, therefore it influences how social a game is.

Yep, and various changes have allowed for the social impact of the game to increase for some of us. Purely subjective.

How sweet a food is will always depend on the person who is tasting said food. Doesn't change the fact that there are sweet foods and non-sweet foods, regardless of how sweet or non sweet they taste to YOU.

Your analogies are horrible.

Edit:
It's clear some of you think the game is less social. I get that. For some of us the game is as social or more social. You need to get that.
I'll repeat, again:

Feel kind of sad for the people that don't think WoW is as social as it was. Glad for myself, and others like me, that the game has in fact become more social over the years. Sai la vie.

Seriously, if you are playing this game and it feels less social..... I do feel sad for you.