How can loot even work without warforging/similar systems?

[Nfinitii]

This is a thing im worried about since quite some time now, we know so far there will not be a warforging or similar system in SL.

However, how do they keep the incentive for mythic+ and raids once you got most of your important stuff up?

Love or hate it, the introduction of thunderforging in mop and the advancing of that system was a necessary evil because otherwise a lot of players would have been "done" and quit way too fast, creating problems not only for the devs but also raiding guilds.

Im not here to discuss wf/tf or if there could have been a better solution (dead horse), but how you guys think they'll handle it in SL, i can't imagine they'd just let it be like right now -20% drop chance on everything and call it a day.

M+ needs a longterm incentive.
First few bosses in a raid need a longterm incentive.
Casual, non-instanced content needs a longterm incentive.

I really don't want to go to the wod days and before where realisticaly im only motivated to do that one boss at some point because it's the only upgrade i could still get..

Titanforge was a terrible system, it basically made every none titanforge feel terrible. And I’m not sure a chance at maybe getting an upgrade is enough to keep players around. If ur fully geared except titanforging, I wouldn’t play.

The first thing they need to do is stop throwing so much loot at players. If u don’t gear up as fast it will keep players playing longer. Badges from raids could be a good thing, these could be used to buy cosmetics, profession related stuff, rep etc. and if they really needed further gear progression be used to upgrade gear. Though I wouldn’t want that direction.

Another thing is to make gear more interesting. Make gear relevant for the content ur doing instead of just chasing ilvl. Make raid gear best for raiding and m+ gear best for m+. This can help with the loot bloat. This can also make it so if u don’t like raiding u don’t have to do it for m+ and visa versa. But can give those who do like both meaningful progression towards both.

Also if they tailor gear towards the content then they can make gear to cover weaknesses. Like druid raid gear making them better in raids. And other healer sets making them better in m+ where druids reign supreme.

[Laughingjack]

Not really true go look up the info on the word it can be either skill or time ext.

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I agree i hate simple gear systems going to get bored of it real fast dip out at one point because of it lol.

Then you should dip out. Trying to cater to people who need flashing lights and random odds is best left to casinos not video games.

[Lurker1]

Then you should dip out. Trying to cater to people who need flashing lights and random odds is best left to casinos not video games.

You can't tell me what you do get bent.im going to keep playing my casino games ty!

[Kokolums]

The game was way more popular before any of this lottery crap, so apparently it can work excellently.

Before WF/TF, people ran dungeons to collect badges to buy badge gear from a vendor. So there was still incentive. It sounds like in SL there will be neither WF/TF nor badge gear. This will be new territory.

[Hctaz]

I expect this forum to go 180 degrees within 6 months of SL and the "Loot is boring, I miss TF / WF etc" crowd to become vocal in creating threads instead of answering in "WF / TF ruined the game, let loot be loot" crowd.

Probably but when is that ever NOT the case? "Flying sucks" "No more flying" "Your game sucks without flying"

Like... it happens all of the time. There may be some people who think that the loot system is good because it gives them a reason to play, but those same people could always just make alts...

I personally don't understand how doing the content once you're fully geared after 3 months is any less boring than doing the same exact content 3 months in looking for the +20 item level titanforge roll on your weapon.

Like... doing the same content 3 months in a row is boring regardless of whether or not there's a possibility of getting an upgrade. If the RNG lottery is somehow keeping people playing rather than the content then Blizzard has turned WoW into a gambling simulator instead of creating fun content that keeps people playing for months by itself.

As a personal Classic anecdote: Once I got all of the gear I possibly could on my warrior in MC/Ony I took the time to level an alt mage so I could go on him instead since my guild still does MC. It's been like 8 months of farming MC and I'm still not bored with it because I made an alt and am getting gear, plus raiding with my friends is fun.

[Laughingjack]

Before WF/TF, people ran dungeons to collect badges to buy badge gear from a vendor. So there was still incentive. It sounds like in SL there will be neither WF/TF nor badge gear. This will be new territory.

I for one would welcome pre sunwell badge venders back into the game.

[Mystikal]

I hope they do, catering to bad Casuals hurt the game in a long run and blizzard understand this now a bit to late but at least...
The less crying bads the better. There are plenty of casino mobile games for you go and play those Chinese gatcha games and don't come back, im tired to read your cry comments on every thread I peek in.

Blizzard understands nothing of the sort. What they do understand, is that the casuals far outnumber the mythic raiders, and that's it's the casuals' subs that keep the money coming in. They have even gone on record many times saying that LFR is here to stay, because its existence justifies more money and development time being spent on raids. They have said that without LFR, there would be fewer and lower-quality raids. Since Blizzard wants to keep the money flowing in, they want to keep casuals subbed.

WF / TF was their so-far best attempt to keep both sides of the player base happy. Even a casual who didn't raid might be tempted to do that WQ for the 100th time, because maybe, just maybe, it might upgrade. Normal and heroic raiders might get a few WF / TF pieces that allow them to overcome that boss they've been struggling with. Unfortunately, some mythic raiders got hysterical because a few players out of millions killed a few crabs and got a mythic ilvl piece as a reward.

We've seen how shitty LFR loot with little / no WF / TF worked out at the end of MoP, and all of WoD - it drove the casuals' subs away in droves. This is why we ended up with the system we had in Legion.

The difference in Shadowlands is that casuals will have M+, but I am skeptical that that being the only means of casuals increasing their character's power will be sufficient to keep them subbed. People keep mentioning Torghast, but there is absolutely no way in hell that it will offer power rewards every time you go in. At the moment, it doesn't even drop gear, just legendary mats, which will almost certainly be timegated in some way. We are sort of in "WoD Lite" territory.

Remember: Blizzard wants ALL players, of ALL skill levels, to see and feel their character getting more powerful over time. Whether you think they need to or not, that is what Blizzard wants and this is something that they have also gone on record stating, many times. The question should not be "what do you need it for?" but rather "how can we give everyone a means of developing their character?". The options for non-raiders in SL are looking very anaemic at present.

[Rendark]

I wish I could just scream this at everyone.

It's a good thing for the game to have an 'end point'. When I get my BiS gear I can take a break from the game, after I'm satisfied with being OP of course. That is a beautiful thing. Feeling like there is an endless grind waiting for me until the end of an expansion is a garbage feeling and I disagree vehemently with anyone who wants it. Out with this RNG nonsense.

Nice to see some people get it.

[Hctaz]

Oh, absolutely. Happens all the time and is actually to be expected with so many ppl playing from al walks of life and age groups.

And yeah..I never got why "insert feature I hate" is boring, a chore and stops being content if you do it once...but also ppl do the same thing every day or week by engaging in pvp pr running the same raids and 5 mans over and over.

MC...yeah...did that for a long time in Vanilla...only on one character, but liked to help ppl gear and then ofc we went off to BWL and all that

Yeah. I never really got it either. Like... the game is going to get boring whenever your brain decides it's boring. If the only thing keeping the game interesting is titanforge loot... I dunno, man, that sounds to me like it's time to play a different game. Some people get bored after one run, some people get bored after 10, some people don't ever get bored and can literally play Vanilla WoW over and over and over again. I don't feel like gambling is really the solution to that problem.

I think this change will be good for the overall playerbase, and it might just mean that the people who were only interested in RNG loot just need to play a different game after they've gotten the best gear they think they reasonably can.

[Laughingjack]

Yeah. I never really got it either. Like... the game is going to get boring whenever your brain decides it's boring. If the only thing keeping the game interesting is titanforge loot... I dunno, man, that sounds to me like it's time to play a different game. Some people get bored after one run, some people get bored after 10, some people don't ever get bored and can literally play Vanilla WoW over and over and over again. I don't feel like gambling is really the solution to that problem.

I think this change will be good for the overall playerbase, and it might just mean that the people who were only interested in RNG loot just need to play a different game after they've gotten the best gear they think they reasonably can.

I guess its cheaper then gambling for real?

I can't really grasp the concept of why having super random things is good.

[kaminaris]

Then you should dip out. Trying to cater to people who need flashing lights and random odds is best left to casinos not video games.

Or, have you ever thought that people simply set goals themselves and NOT farmed beyond that point? You know, like having self control?

And it will be more of casino now than with titanforging. Titanforging and common drops guaranteed you will get baseline power quickly. Now you will be pulling a slotmachine levers a lot to only not get what you want in long time.

[Xykotic]

You get your BiS for the tier -> you quit till next 0.X

People asked for this.

If you do this, then you better be prepared to find a new guild aswell. I certainly wouldn't invite you back if you only care about your own loot, and not the guild itself.

[Kendros]

Titanforge was too much, but warforge would be completely fine by itself. Mythic raiding is not an impressive feat, im running with 19 shitters and we are about to be 10/12, so pretending mythic raiding is hard is just delusional and trying to kid youself into saying that youre good when youre just avarage. Warforge wouldnt hurt mythic raiding in any way, and would give us a reason to clear early bosses for the 15th time and still get something and the poor average joe a reason to be happy when killing that heroic boss for the 20th time.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

I’m genuinely curious if anyone has quit raiding once they had BiS gear, to me that’s absurd even if I had full BiS there would be people in my guild who wasn’t and I’d keep raiding for them to get BiS. Even after everyone is BiS I still raid because I like raiding and I like the players I raid with, yes loot is absolutely a motivator to do content... but if that’s the only motivating factor for you then there are much bigger issues that needs to be looked at (from your perspective).

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If you do this, then you better be prepared to find a new guild aswell. I certainly wouldn't invite you back if you only care about your own loot, and not the guild itself.

Exactly... I’ve never experienced players like this in 14+ years of playing, just quitting your friends when you are done? I haven’t even heard about people doing that...

[Ssateneth]

Im really skeptical about it.

If droprates are low, people will eventually burn out entirely of game, nobody got time and desire to farm the same boss/dungeon over and over again hoping for that one piece to drop.

If droprates are medium, people will gear up fast enough and stop playing. I mean, this is a problem in non-tf world where you don't want to see instance X until next major patch limiting amount of content you can do to get any upgrade.

So at the beginning you will narrow down dungeons to 4-6 that gives you your bis. Then you will slowly eliminate dungeons to 1-2 and run only 2 dungeons for entire time.

Nobody got time and desire to farm the same boss/dungeon over and over again hoping for that titanforge / corruption to proc.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Having a bis list to farm in a couple of weeks seems so much worse than anything wf/tf related personally. It is so much easier now to get enough gear to do all the content in the game than before while still being able to get upgrades down the line. People like to blame wf/tf for whatever the real reasons are they are not at the top of meters or that being the reason they are benched. There's still gonna be the exact same people complaining about needing to get their bis trinket from this very specific piece of content they either don't like to do or just can't do and that will be the reason they don't feel good playing the game.

The version of the game where you have a bis list just feels super boring to me and it becomes more about loot not dropping than at least having a chance of getting an upgrade. Having the exact same gear as every other player of my spec doesn't quite sound exciting. Why have gear at all at this point?

[ClassicPeon]

Having a bis list to farm in a couple of weeks seems so much worse than anything wf/tf related personally. It is so much easier now to get enough gear to do all the content in the game than before while still being able to get upgrades down the line. People like to blame wf/tf for whatever the real reasons are they are not at the top of meters or that being the reason they are benched. There's still gonna be the exact same people complaining about needing to get their bis trinket from this very specific piece of content they either don't like to do or just can't do and that will be the reason they don't feel good playing the game.

The version of the game where you have a bis list just feels super boring to me and it becomes more about loot not dropping than at least having a chance of getting an upgrade. Having the exact same gear as every other player of my spec doesn't quite sound exciting. Why have gear at all at this point?

There is a BiS list no matter how you look at it. Very few people actively farm each week for a 475 Infinite stars if you have a 465 infinite stars one.

The main difference in gear form now and SL is that now you get 200 pieces of loot and throw out 189 of them where as in SL you will get 50 and throw out 40 of them.

[kaminaris]

Nobody got time and desire to farm the same boss/dungeon over and over again hoping for that titanforge / corruption to proc.

Because people didn't hope for procs, they just got it quickly and then played the game. If you had done some M+ with friends and got random proc, it could have been slightly better than your item. Nobody farmed for TF.

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There is a BiS list no matter how you look at it. Very few people actively farm each week for a 475 Infinite stars if you have a 465 infinite stars one.

The main difference in gear form now and SL is that now you get 200 pieces of loot and throw out 189 of them where as in SL you will get 50 and throw out 40 of them.

Not really, the main difference is that once you acquire specific piece of gear in SL you won't be interested in going to that dungeon ever again. With TF you can get upgrade from any content - but realistically speaking just dungeons and raids in general. Without WF/TF you will only run things that awards you upgrade meaning some instances will become completely useless to you.

[Advent]

I’m genuinely curious if anyone has quit raiding once they had BiS gear, to me that’s absurd even if I had full BiS there would be people in my guild who wasn’t and I’d keep raiding for them to get BiS. Even after everyone is BiS I still raid because I like raiding and I like the players I raid with, yes loot is absolutely a motivator to do content... but if that’s the only motivating factor for you then there are much bigger issues that needs to be looked at (from your perspective).

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Exactly... I’ve never experienced players like this in 14+ years of playing, just quitting your friends when you are done? I haven’t even heard about people doing that...

I have. I've known and played with people who generally don't consider their raid to be their friends. More like co-workers, sometimes less than that. People seem to generally be disposable in this game, even in guilds. I don't really believe there's any such thing as friendship in guilds, let alone raiding guilds. Outside of very fringe cases.

[Kumorii]

Nobody got time and desire to farm the same boss/dungeon over and over again hoping for that titanforge / corruption to proc.

Then don't? Some want to do that, so they do that. Others, like me, don't like that after I get my piece I look for. So I don't farm that place in hoping for a TF or WF.