What's the most EVIL or heinous thing the Alliance has legally done?

[Zandalariprelate]

The Alliance has a lot of shaddy moments durings Cataclysm like attacking the ship of Thrall, having the church of Stormwind being a recruitment ground for the Twilight Hammer, Taurajo, the constant expansion of Theramoore in that marshal zone, Rogers in general and sending farmers to their death in the plaguelands to name some are the best examples from their recent years.

However those actions are never addressed by anyone and just swep under the rug with the writers poking fun of it(See Maiev lines when pissed) or just straight up searching a way to justify their action, remember when Genn team up with Rogers only to be spiteful to the forsakens even at the maws of a legion invasion and Sylvanas getting some hero spotlight? Well turns out she is doing an evil thing and throwing away the alliance fleet and lives of the crew for a petty revenge turned out to be the best thing ever done by Greymane.

[Josyel]

We cant blame Arthas because he left the Alliance.

We cant blame Illidan because he left the Alliance.

We cant blame Daelin because he left the Alliance.

Sylvanas just left the Horde. Make up a new argument.

[therealbowser]

Attempting to kill off the blood elves out of sheer racial hatred. Garithos was a piece of work.

That's pretty much the only genuinely bad thing I can think of. But I am sure the same people calling Sylvanas "morally gray" will try and find something unpleasant they've done in the past that is somehow worse than mass genocide.

- - - Updated - - -

We cant blame Arthas because he left the Alliance.

We cant blame Illidan because he left the Alliance.

We cant blame Daelin because he left the Alliance.

Sylvanas just left the Horde. Make up a new argument.

This is the worst argument I've ever heard of.

Arthas left the Alliance when he became scourge so he can't be blamed for his actions as a death knight. He can be blamed for his actions up until he claimed Frostmourne.

Illidan was never in the Alliance, lol.

Daelin was fighting for the Alliance, but he was basically doing it on his own terms. It's hard to say if he was actually Alliance or not. But I mean sure we can go with him being Alliance.

Sylvanas committed atrocities literally as warchief of the Horde. Everything she did until she left (opening Shadowlands, etc) and everything she did before she joined the Horde (killing Garithos--not that that was all that evil--etc) can be called as something the Horde didn't do, everything else... whelp.

Sorry buddy, but Sylvanas isn't morally grey. Better luck next time.

[Shiza]

We cant blame Arthas because he left the Alliance.

I mean, his first action was to kill the leader of the Alliance and destroy the main kingdom of the alliance, which afterwards joined the Horde. So Arthas actions actually benefited the Horde more than anything else, as otherwise they wouldn't have access to Lordaeron.

We cant blame Illidan because he left the Alliance.

He was never in the Alliance though.

We cant blame Daelin because he left the Alliance.

The Horde never signed a peace treaty and they commited hostile actions against an allied kingdom of Kul Tiras, stealing parts of their fleet and killing innocents on their way. So how has Daelin ever done something wrong?

Sylvanas just left the Horde. Make up a new argument.

She commited her worst actions as the Leader of the Horde to whom the majority was loyal up until she left.

[Combatbutler]

How much military planning experience do you have? Horde levels, I suspect. Ok, one more time from the top. Let's assume we have a military base near a city. Let's assume you are a military strategist, and you need the operations of this military base to cease operations. You could A. Attack the base, itself, and make a direct strike against that military outpost, or B. You could strike the city, and kill many people who are the families of the people on the military base, but most of them have nothing to do with the military base, or if they do, it is on a humanitarian level, like food delivery, utilities, and waste disposal, and not on a military level. You only have one mana bomb, so you can't hit both. What do you do? And to make things even more clear, one of these options is hitting a military target. The other is an act of terrorism. Do you see the difference, yet?

The idea that Jaina disagrees with her own stance seems a bit like dividing by zero. Before the bomb hit her city, she tried on multiple occasions to bring the Horde and Alliance to the table for peace talks. She let her father die at the hands of Rexxar because she believed what HE was doing was wrong. Don't sit there and tell me Theramore was on even remotely the same field as Stormwind was.

You know read the novel, not gonna bother with something Jaina says in there herself.

That's an insult to my intelligence.

Don't worry, your response already was.

[Magical Mudcrab]

During the questline to rescue Baine you're there with Shaw, Saurfang, Thrall, and Jaina. And Shaw flat out says he blames the modern Horde for Llane Wrynn.

I'll take it on good faith that Shaw does believe that, as I don't have the time to look up specific npc text from a scenario. In that case, if Shaw blames the modern Horde and not elements of it (i.e.: old warriors like Saurfang), then he's obviously wrong.

Glad you totally ignored what I wrote. It doesn't matter that the draenei hadn't done anything. The orcs had already witnessed that if the draenei got the first strike there would be no orcs left. As soon as they drank the blood, they no longer had a choice. They committed the genocide because Kil'jaeden wanted revenge on the draenei in general and Velen in particular.

I didn't ignore what you said, what you said was just silly. The Draenei and the Orcs lived in peace and the Orcs, for no reason, attacked them. This wasn't just some "Oh, they're a powerful threat that needs dealt with," this is "Oh, let's kill them because Ner'zhul said they were bad guys, even though he has no evidence of this." The reasoning of the villain behind the scenes is irrelevant, and whether or not they were tricked is irrelevant, the fact is that the Orcs willingly chose to damn themselves because of their own biases and paranoia. Racial hatred isn't a defense for committing a genocide, it's just an affirmation that you knew what you were doing.

The Orcs, for whatever reason, are being given the boys will be boys treatment for committing genocide. This wasn't simply a mistake, this wasn't simply a situation in which they are the victim, this was a pattern of behavior that only stopped because they met a force that was able to overcome them. How many races would the Orcs have to almost wipe out before they will be held responsible for their actions by some people? 3? 4? I would probably say the fact that this is even a question is a reason why the arguments about them being a victim should be dismissed.

[therealbowser]

Also, just to keep things in perspective:



Picture should be updated with Astranaar, Teldrassil, Brennadam, etc.

Wow, this is solid gold. Thanks!

[Aucald]

As per normal for these types of threads, this thread needs to settle back down. Also try to keep to the topic of the thread, which isn't about the general faction conflict but specifically about "evil" things the Alliance has purportedly done. General Alliance vs. Horde type rhetoric isn't conducive to this topic.

[therealbowser]

Yeah, I mean... has anyone discussed Garithos yet? He's a genuinely screwed up character. More fun to talk about what an idiot he is than "lolol Sylvanas did nothing wrong" etc.

[Varodoc]

We cant blame Arthas because he left the Alliance.

We cant blame Illidan because he left the Alliance.

We cant blame Daelin because he left the Alliance.

Sylvanas just left the Horde. Make up a new argument.

The Alliance did not support Arthas' actions after the Heartsglen mission.

The Alliance never supported Illidan.

The Alliance didn't support Daelin's campaign against the orcs.

The Horde supported Sylvanas until she dumped them.

[Ardenaso]

We cant blame Arthas because he left the Alliance.

We cant blame Illidan because he left the Alliance.

We cant blame Daelin because he left the Alliance.

Sylvanas just left the Horde. Make up a new argument.

Illidan was never part of the Alliance though

[Mehrunes]

Except it was not intent of genocide? Nowhere at any point does he states he wants to commit genocide on all elves. You cant commit genocide when you are planning to execute only the soldiers.

Except you can. Genocide doesn't require the killing of all members. Or killing in general, but in this case that's a bit besides the point. It requires killing in whole or in part. Now, it's not any random part. The survival of the whole must be put in heavy jeopardy because of that part being gone. Which was the case here. The Thalassian nation was already in shambles, with Scourge running amok through their country. With Kael's forces gone they'd all be gone.

I have to mention that the Sunreavers that did what they did with Garrosh were many. In fact Aethas had the chance to stop them mid act but he like a coward turned his back the other way.

Why would you have to mention something that's wrong? War Crimes talks about a Sunreaver agent helping Garrosh with the Divine Bell, not agents.

Not true. As I said, Jaina was described as the Leader of the Kirin Tor in her character bio on the official website. Furthermore, your argument is weak because if the Council had so much authority then they would have kicked her out right after the Purge. Instead not only was she allowed to remain in the Kirin Tor, but the other members of the Council also did not interfere with Dalaran joining the Alliance after the Purge. So even if Jaina did not have the authority to order the Purge, why would it be relevant? Very clearly the other members of the Council were not bothered by it at all and thus it can be inferred that they agreed with her.

Also if her actions were considered a war crime she would have been held accountable for it in the novel called "War Crimes" /shrug

Yeah, because she was the leader of the Council. That doesn't change the fact that Dalaran is ruled by the Council of Six working as a whole. We've not only personally seen it happen in-game, but @TheRevenantHero flat out mentioned that example in the very post you replied to here. So it's rather bizarre you're insisting on that not being true. And your "your argument is weak because" is just illogical. Just because the Council didn't kick her out doesn't mean they aren't in power. There's no logical link between the two. Especially since Jaina shit the bed so hard (especially once she got Stormwind involved in the Purge) that she didn't leave Dalaran any choice in the matter but to roll with it, because Garrosh would treat them as co-belligerents one way or another. Finally, your "why would it be relevant even if Jaina did not have the authority" fails not only to address the point but it fails to defend Jaina (especially in some coherent line of argumentation with your previous defense) even harder.

The Alliance and Horde were not at war, The assault on Teldrassil was a surprise assault during a time of peace. (and yes, they WERE at peace, even Sylvanas considered them to not be at war during the events of Before the Storm).

Not the same thing.

Them not being formally at war doesn't even remotely equate to that being a time of peace. Which, you know, is quite clearly indicated by the very same book, in which something as benign as a peaceful meeting of civilians on neutral ground required an official ceasefire (as well as personal guarantees of safety for the people partaking from both the Warchief and the High King). And there needs to be a fire to be ceased by a ceasefire. Alas, it seems the incessant selective reading of that book is still in fashion among some posters here.

You mean the same miners who had the Horde PC kill spies that were, by the miner's own admission, doing nothing other than "skulking around", in neutral territory, where they had just as much right to be as the miners? We don't know which one of those quests happened first, but if the Horde one happened first the Alliance were justified... And given that the miners only said the spies were "skulking around", and made no mention of any of their people being killed, I'll happily wager that the Horde quest happened first.

JFC, just because Silithus itself is neutral doesn't mean Horde mining camp in Silithus is also neutral. The "Horde" part of "Horde mining camp" should be a small indication here. And the tale that we don't know which one of those quests happened first is as bogus as the previous time it has been brought up. The Horde questline starts with Alliance spies in their camp already being discovered. The Alliance questline starts with the Alliance player being told that the previous method of passive observation resulted in nothing tangible and as such they are to be send to said camp with a "more active" approach. With the Alliance quest-giver not even stuttering about the operation already being made and the Horde being aware of their operation, despite this being a pretty crucial piece of information for an agent to be deployed right into the camp of the enemy force.

And even all of that aside, given how contrary to your amazing theories Horde camps are most certainly Horde territory, even if Alliance questline started later than the Horde one (which it did not), the Alliance spy NPCs you see at the start of the Horde questline were still violating the sovereignty of Horde's territory, which means that they still started things. And just like the Alliance, the Horde is free to defend its territory from hostile incursions.

Maybe their king shouldn't have stepped into the middle of a war that was none of their concern.

Which is neither here nor there in regards of the practice of enslaving Molten Giants. You know, the same practice that the Earthen Ring condemned Garrosh over. Because it threatened the second Cataclysm.

[Aquamonkey]

The idea that Jaina disagrees with her own stance seems a bit like dividing by zero. Before the bomb hit her city, she tried on multiple occasions to bring the Horde and Alliance to the table for peace talks. She let her father die at the hands of Rexxar because she believed what HE was doing was wrong. Don't sit there and tell me Theramore was on even remotely the same field as Stormwind was. That's an insult to my intelligence.

[Jaina] gave [Kalec] a look. “We are the most martial Alliance presence on the continent,”
--Tides of War

[Schattenlied]

Oh, no no no. You cant just say a high ranking member of the Alliance leading an Alliance army is not responsible for Alliance actions.

From wowwiki:
"Othmar Garithos was the Grand Marshal leader of remnants of the Kingdom of Lordaeron following its downfall during the Third War and also the de-facto leader of Alliance forces in Lordaeron. As such, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel’Thalas sent him aid, ignorant of his intolerant and prejudiced policies."

Yes, I can, just like I get to say the Alliance isn't responsible for the actions of Arthas after he started giving orders he had no right to give.

They sent him "aid", the "aid" he was sent were under their own officers operating seperately, such as those at Chillwind Camp. Those same people also, because they were their own forces, not his, refused to follow him into the plaguelands when he wanted to go on a suicide mission.


And again, even he called his splinter group "The New Alliance", even he considered himself separate from the remaining Alliance of Lordaeron.

And as you pointed out with your quote, his actions were not sanctioned by the Alliance of Lordaeron's leadership as they were in fact entirely ignorant of his actions. They cannot sanction actions they are unaware of.

[Mehrunes]

Jaina's pogrom is by every definition not an alliance action, this is explicitly stated onscreen. Hell, it's a borderline anti alliance action because Jaina's spaghetti drop ruined Varian's plans for the blood elves.

Varian still sent help to perform the Purge.

Secondly, engaging in military action against enemy states are not intrinsically heinous or evil especially when these actions are in aid of a defensive war.

Is this in regards to the Purge or something else? Because if it's the Purge, then I have to inform you that during the WotLK-MoP faction war Alliance was the aggressor.

Wait, why is Garithos thrown on the Alliance's doorstep?

Wasn't he Lordaeronian? Wouldn't that make his actions fall on, if anyone, the Forsaken, who the Horde love to constantly point out as just being living-challenged Lordaeronians?

Has Garithos ever joined the Forsaken? No? Meaning that your point here doesn't actually exist?

Also, how can someone in good conscience focus so much ire on Garithos' actions and yet turn a total blind eye to the even worse atrocities carried out by the Horde?

How can someone in good conscience not realize this thread is about the Alliance and Alliance alone, not Alliance in comparison to the Horde, making your whataboutism about the Horde utterly moot? The answer is: one cannot.

Citation for the fact that "many" were spies? All evidence in game points to a small minority.

There's no citation, it's something @Darth-Piekus made up. War Crimes talks about not even a small minority but a singular agent in regards to the Purge.

Because despite being a quite literal post-apocalyptic warlord representing the remnant of a destroyed state he was a racist. And that's literally the best the horde have because the alliance are exclusively written as lawful boring and never do anything but react to whatever the omnicidal warchief is doing this expansion.

Apart from the two dozen other examples given in this thread until this post.

Also, just to keep things in perspective:



Picture should be updated with Astranaar, Teldrassil, Brennadam, etc.

Putting aside how your sad whataboutism (in lieu of actual defense of Alliance's actions brought up in this thread) is still off-topic, Hillsbrad human seedlings were performed by a guy who betrayed the Forsaken and was executed for his acts in the town, Gilneas was a case of Blighting the military force that just drove the Forsaken out of the capital city, Theramore was pretty much the most valid military target on Azeroth, Southshore was a fuck-up with abnormally strong strain of Blight and Andorhal was a case of Varian sending poorly trained and equipped farmers from Westfall to capture territory neither he nor the farmers had any claim to and where Alliance broke the truce Thassarian made with Koltira, making it backfire right in your face. And more than five people die in Dalaran even in-game, with in-game portrayal being representative of nothing because game's scale always sucks, with the Purge being treated very seriously in War Crimes.

[Minikin]

Your signature cracks me up every time I read it.

A part of me always felt like something was up when blood elves came in. Then that journal and Reddit talk came out and it was like a gold mine. Makes you wonder right.............how much of the horde player base is blood elf XD.

[Zandalariprelate]

I mean, his first action was to kill the leader of the Alliance and destroy the main kingdom of the alliance, which afterwards joined the Horde. So Arthas actions actually benefited the Horde more than anything else, as otherwise they wouldn't have access to Lordaeron

Purging Stratholme is still a bad thing and legally he should had at the very least go to the King's court for being judged, still amazed how people hail him as a hero when nobody knew of the plague and most would had seen it as a mad prince being let do whatever he wanted because daddy was the king

The Horde never signed a peace treaty and they commited hostile actions against an allied kingdom of Kul Tiras, stealing parts of their fleet and killing innocents on their way. So how has Daelin ever done something wrong?

The Horde was in another continent and far away of the remmains of the Alliance and their nation was backed by Jaina which she is technically the "Princess" of Kul Tiras and an active member of the alliance in those days

She commited her worst actions as the Leader of the Horde to whom the majority was loyal up until she left.

Burning a town full of civilians is something done by every race of this setting at a daily basis. It's just that people doesn't want to be in the looser side

[Feanoro]

Oh, no no no. You cant just say a high ranking member of the Alliance leading an Alliance army is not responsible for Alliance actions.

From wowwiki:
"Othmar Garithos was the Grand Marshal leader of remnants of the Kingdom of Lordaeron following its downfall during the Third War and also the de-facto leader of Alliance forces in Lordaeron. As such, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel’Thalas sent him aid, ignorant of his intolerant and prejudiced policies."

Thank you for providing a quote that proves you're wrong.

[TheRevenantHero]

1. No, it was not the largest naval installation. The largest one, and the only place on Azeroth with a dry-dock system used to create battleships and the like was in Stormwind.
2. Dazar'alor was a military target. The Rastakhan dynasty allowed the Horde access to their cities, their warships (which had already fired on, and destroyed several ships in the fleet, mind you), and had attempted to use Derek Proudmoore as a weapon against the Proudmoores before Baine's intervention. THAT puts you in the crosshairs. What doesn't put someone in the crosshairs is being a port city that is a trader post, a fishing village, and home to an otherwise sympathetic human in the middle of the Horde and Alliance conflict. A military target has a specific military objective. Theramore was the home to many civilians, a security force that was more inline against the ogres and the Defias than the Horde, and the home to a person who wanted more than anything to reestablish good measures between the Horde and Alliance. And, the port itself was not destroyed, nor was the roads leading into the Barrens. THOSE would have been military targets, but no, let's kill all the innocents in the city to send a bloody message to the Alliance and then wonder why Jaina goes all monkey fuck against the Horde....

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Theramore_Isle It's literally listed as the Alliance's largest martial force on Kalimdor.

- - - Updated - - -

Have you never heard of the troll Aqir wars?

If the old gods didn't intervene the Elementals would have still been constantly fighting and it would have been much harder for other lifeforms to form. And if the Titans didn't deal with the old gods theres no way in hell Trolls would have existed. They either would have been killed off before they became trolls or proto trolls would have been enslaved by the old gods. Also if the well of eternity didnt exist then we have no idea if trolls would have ever made it to the civilization stage wolvar could have ended up being the dominant lifeform for all we know. Or if everything happened except the well all the titanforged would have became fleshy beings long before trolls ever came into being.

And you still haven't explained why trolls are somehow special but elves are an abomination.

I never once called elves abominations. Do not put words in my mouth. I simply said that they are a completely separate race to trolls. Also, the rest of your post is utterly irrelevant to what I said. The quel'dorei and humans brought genocide against the trolls who were defending their own land. If you're going to try and say that the trolls stole that land anyway and it was just war, then we will have to use the same logic when talking about the orcs that invaded from Outlands.

[Mehrunes]

That reminder wouldn't be needed if not for the attempts to derail it with Horde memes and talking points about Alliance being just as bad.

Weirdly enough the only memes and like 90% of mentions of the Horde in this thread were by Alliance posters. But obviously you won't mention that part as it's too inconvenient for your HORDE BIAS conspiracy theory or whatever else you're going for here.

Cavemen are considered primitive and even if they were just blue/green rats one day and instantly trolls the next day, it doesn't mean there wasn't life or species before it.

Key word there being lifeform. Are cavemen considered to be primitive lifeforms or primitive people?

The thing is that there just is nothing that Alliance does that could be considered equal with the actions of the Horde morally, there just isn't. Even by modern standards the Alliance still isn't really that disagreeable.


The conversation should be centered on why the Alliance is written to be scot-free, not trying to twist things that writers themselves wrote to be morally good into a 'but actually.' Which is literally what's happening in this thread.

Riiiiight. Let's look at the examples that are actually happening in this thread. Cleaning in Dalaran. Shooting shipwrecks and slavery in Pandaria. Sending people into suicidal missions because of racial prejudice and then trying to execute 15% of their population after they teamed up with a third party to surive. Attempted genocide of Orgrimmar. Just to name a bunch. Would you look at all dem things that writers wrote to be morally good and that totes legit aren't disagreeable by modern standards (but only if you throw out the Geneva convention into a shredder).

So when earlier in the thread you said this:

Also this thread is most likely gonna' turn into a 'Alliance fanboys never wanna' admit to evil' circlejerk so I'll just say that the reason no one is conceding to your accusations is because 'Alliance wrongs' are usually very overblown or just misconstrued to appear worse than they are.

The fact is that its extremely rare for the Alliance to do evil shit. Gotta' cope with that.

you were just being disingenuous and generally not telling the truth.