Why is it a bad thing that the Blood Knights got redeemed?

[Koryn123]

The Death Knight starting zone is more interesting than the demon hunter one.

The Scarlet Crusade and Brotherhood of the Light are more interesting than the Argent Dawn, Crusade, or the Silver Hand.

Arthas is arguably the most popular and interesting character in all of WoW's lore.


Taking the concept of a moral paragon adventurer and flipping it on its head is interesting. Robbing a group of everything that made them unique so they're exactly the same as the concept they were originally intended to be a foil to is not interesting.

I could forgive it if not for the fact that Blizzard said Liadrin forbids the Blood Knights from simply siphoning Light from the Sunwell, which means the only way for them to do what they do is to be good little long-eared human paladins. Blood Knight has no meaning. They're just paladins. And they're doing the same to the Sunwalkers who are druids who wear plate and do mostly sun magic, having Aponi Brightmane in the paladin order hall being like "wow I'm learning so much about the Light, I wanna learn more." They seem incapable of maintaining diversity in their game's world and are hell-bent on homogenizing everything into one grey blob with no distinct characteristics whatsoever.

If you want to play a good happy funtime good guy, play a human paladin. They didn't have to take the Blood Knights away from us. Make Liadrin that person if you must, but they shouldn't have said she forbids anyone from doing things the old way.

[Ardenaso]

If Alliance paladins don't want to work together with blood elves, it is their problem.

I actually prefer it that way where the Silver/Argus Hand and the Blood Knights are in great tensions with each others while the good guy Argents are trying to pre-MoP Jaina the two organizations

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Now speaking of, I wonder Blizzard would care enough to see some interactions between Silver Covenant/Allerian High Elf Paladins with Blood Knights; much better if some Void Elf with weaponized void with void libram shows up with them

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If you want to play a good happy funtime good guy, play a human paladin. They didn't have to take the Blood Knights away from us. Make Liadrin that person if you must, but they shouldn't have said she forbids anyone from doing things the old way.

human paladins are still self-righteous. the really happy go lucky guys are the draenei paladins

[Mehrunes]

Would they be welcomed in the argent dawn? The argent crusade? The paladin order hall?

I know blizzard likes giving the horde a pass vis-a-vis terrible, hypocritical atrocities they commit and the willingness of neutral factions to just not care, but... that'd be a pretty big affront to what the other Paladin races... human, dwarf, draenei, tauren... and indeed now Zandalari and lightforged... stand for.\

You mean the Argent Dawn that teamed up with Scarlet Crusade even at the end of Vanilla after all forms of their shady behavior has been exposed in multiple questlines, the Argent Crusade that teamed up with the Ebon Blade and the Paladin Order Hall that was a continuation of the above two? Also, Tauren Paladins are basically an off-shoot of their Druidic practices and the Zandalari Paladins are just worshipers of a particular Loa. They don't fit the cookie cutter cardboard human/Dwarven Paladins either.

[Koryn123]

human paladins are still self-righteous. the really happy go lucky guys are the draenei paladins

Maybe in a sincere way, but not in a vain way. Sincere self-righteousness like Malfurion is boring and obnoxious, especially whenever he preaches to someone about not giving in to their hatred, then immediately flipping to do the same thing times a thousand when it's him with a reason to be mad (1: Preaching to Maiev the second he finds out Tyrande's not dead, just 3 villages of night elves and all of Maiev's Watchers, 2: Preaching to Lyara when she wanted him to lift a finger and do anything about the Horde invading in Cataclysm who killed her child daughter, 3: Hush Tyrande).

[Ardenaso]

You mean the Argent Dawn that teamed up with Scarlet Crusade even at the end of Vanilla after all forts of their shady behavior has been exposed in multiple questlines, the Argent Crusade that teamed up with the Ebon Blade and the Paladin Order Hall that was a continuation of the above two?

hey give the Argents some slack; they're the good guys who try to compromise everyone for everything

[DeltrusDisc]

I feel like the majority of people, including horde people, should not reasonably have sided with Sylvanas. I felt it was straight up offensively stupid to force Death Knights to side with her, considering the Ebon Blade has been in a cold war with Sylvanas since Cataclysm and not even formally Horde. The notion that the LEADER of the Ebon Blade would just leave to go be a Sylvanas lackey was part of what made me hate BfA with a passion. I just couldn't reconcile it.

Wait, what?

When did this happen?

[Mehrunes]

The Death Knights don't actively exploit the light for their own gains, nor did they choose to be Death knights. They fight with the powers, unholy as they may be, that they were infused with against their will.

Their unwanted origin doesn't change their behavior afterwards. You know, the behavior like fighting Scourge with Scourge tactics, inflicting suffering on innocents just because they don't cope with existence otherwise or taking a detour to torment Scarlets with undeath that the Argent Crusade didn't exactly stand for to say the least, yet tolerated because the Ebon Blade was a necessary ally.

It'd literally be the same as you pitching the Cenarion circle or the druid order hall letting in a group of druids that revile nature and actively work to destroy it but are let in on a technicality because they can turn into animals by merit of having an ancient tied up somewhere whom they force to give them power.

The Naaru only play a big role in Draenei Paladin-hood to begin with. And reviling the Light was something Liadrin in particular did. It wasn't some kind of a requirement to become a Blood Knight.

An interesting angle? For a villainous faction, maybe. But certainly not one that's going to "play along with others" in the lore. Which, when you find yourself staring down the barrel of world-ending villain after world-ending villain, becomes somewhat necessary.

The behavior of the Ebon Blade was much more villainous than anything the Blood Knights ever did and they still played with others. It's almost as if staring down the barrel of a world-ending threat is something that would make people put aside their religious differences and the like.

And... once the Blood Elves were freed of their power corruption, why NOT just have them transition into being more conventional paladins? There's really no lore reason for them not to. Obviously blood elves have no actual problem "believing" in the light. High Elves didn't have an issue. There are certainly blood elf priests. Having them transition to more conventional light worship to obtain their powers removes that sticking point of things like "why the hell would the Draenei ever team up with the Blood Elves, who still have a naaru chained up in a basement" that would become quite the plot hole in lore over time. And again, Blizzard obviously isn't too terribly worried about these when it comes to the horde, but... the fewer of them there are, the better.

Velen had no issue working with Illidan even after the latter turned a prime Naaru into dust. You're making the whole Blood Knight bit into a much bigger issue than it actually is in lore.

The Order Halls were a mistake. The fact that there's a priest Order Hall for instance where void and Light worshipers palled along was already a carfire and the paladin Order Hall is already such a joke that after the Death Knights attack them they ask for their help to re-corrupt the Ashbringer.

Yeah, the only one that really made sense was the Warlock, Death Knight and Demon Hunter ones. Maybe Hunter one but that is already stretching things a bit.

Not to mention how stupid was to dump followers of Loa, the Holy Light, the Forgotten Shadow and Elune into a vaguely Draenei-themed basement, and then have everyone blindly follow the High Priest™. That part was so cringey

I personally dislike the Paladin one the most. Just because of the name, since of how it clearly showed how Blizzard can't follow their own story. You know, the whole deal of transforming the Argent Crusade (which was already a pan-Paladin organization) into a "restored" Silver Hand. When the Argent Crusade was a merger of the Argent Dawn and the Lordaeronian branch of Silver Hand already restored by Tirion between Vanilla and WotLK. So not only was the Silver Hand already restored long before that (not to mention the southern branch that never fell to begin with and yet was still incorporated into this "restored" Silver Hand), but Argent Crusade was reformed into something that was already a component of it from its inception. It's so fucking stupid.

[Rexosaurus]

Well there are a number of reasons. The biggest one that I see is an attempt to escape the shitshow that is the traditional Paladin, which exists because Blizzard doesn't know how to handle "Lawful Good" organizations outside of wielding them as generic plot devices to get rid of bad guys.

For example, even though the Silver Hand are the original Paladins (from WC2, I know that that's not necessarily true lore-wise), they've been very stagnant in terms of activity throughout the story. They're super generic and they're rarely heard from because Blizzard doesn't know how to give them a unique characterization that sets them apart from other groups. I'd also say that they've kind of written themselves into a corner by adding the Draenei, who are just Human/Dwarf Paladins but even more light-y. Adding both them and the Naaru, and revealing the true nature of the Light could have been a big deal to the Silver Hand, and Humanity in general, but it just kind of got swept under the rug and both of those groups have just been DraeneiLite (pun intended) ever since. The Silver Hand only ever appears when we need a vehicle to fight something big, like the Scourge or the Legion. Vindicators appear as generic Draenei representatives. We rarely, if ever, get to see them at work as a group within the Alliance, there's just a random paladin every once in a while, and that makes it hard to give them a solid identity.

So getting back to the original question, even though the Blood Knights were an edgelord's wet dream, it was still a unique identity that gave them a niche in the story. It provided character, focus, and story opportunities compared to the directionless and often forgettable "bleh" that is the state of the Alliance Paladin. That's why there's still a large amount of people that are salty about Blood Knights being "redeemed".

[matrix123mko]

I actually prefer it that way where the Silver/Argus Hand and the Blood Knights are in great tensions with each others while the good guy Argents are trying to pre-MoP Jaina the two organizations

I like this theme too.

Now speaking of, I wonder Blizzard would care enough to see some interactions between Silver Covenant/Allerian High Elf Paladins with Blood Knights; much better if some Void Elf with weaponized void with void libram shows up with them

There is no difference between these orders anyway. It would only be void elves that would look different if Blizzard gave them paladins.

human paladins are still self-righteous. the really happy go lucky guys are the draenei paladins

Tirion was pretty much Draenei.

[Maljinwo]

If you want to play an interesting light wielding warrior, Prelates are there waiting for you

[Nagawithlegs]

In this nebulous timeline where the Blood Knights DIDN'T get redeemed, I wonder how "good" the lore would be where Blood Elves have an infinite supply of Naaru to suck light out of so they can be 2000's edgy-cool still.

The same universe probably still has the copious amounts of dragon rape.

[Mardux]

Wait, what?

When did this happen?

It didnt. At least not how that person claims it did. A few EB members decided to keep an eye on Sylv but there was no cold war. In WoD, the EB offered to help the PCs, not sylvanas. In legion, they teamed up with the LK (under very specific conditions), not sylvanas.

What they described is the typical twisted narrative that is fallen back on to feed the horde hatetrain. Take a neutral unit and claim its pro-horde so people will agree because they dont know how to check lore.

[Ardenaso]

It didnt. At least not how that person claims it did. A few EB members decided to keep an eye on Sylv but there was no cold war. In WoD, the EB offered to help the PCs, not sylvanas. In legion, they teamed up with the LK (under very specific conditions), not sylvanas.

What they described is the typical twisted narrative that is fallen back on to feed the horde hatetrain. Take a neutral unit and claim its pro-horde so people will agree because they dont know how to check lore.

Wait, what?

When did this happen?

I tried to look for it myself the closest I can think of is Nazgrim inside the Orgrimmar warchief throne room. That's it

[Combatbutler]

I tried to look for it myself the closest I can think of is Nazgrim inside the Orgrimmar warchief throne room. That's it

That person might be under the impression that his/her character was the leader of the ebon blade, which canonical is not the case.

People tend to forget that their characters are pretty much nobodies and an npc can claim their deeds at any moment.

Prime examples are the wielders of the artifact weapons

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Power_in_Our_Hands

[Ardenaso]

There is no difference between these orders anyway. It would only be void elves that would look different if Blizzard gave them paladins.

Tirion was pretty much Draenei.

I mean, the High Elf Paladin (who is still a devout member of the Church of the Holy Light) would trade insults with the Blood Knights since they have different sensitive views on the Ligh, or whatever some nice trashtalk in neutral zones like Hearthglen or Light's Hope. I was joking on Void Elf Paladins, we all know they will never happen unless Blizzard makes into a "remember those sunwalkers? we'll do the same with the void now because why not"

Tirion, Maxwell, and Taelen were exceptions. Arthas recognizes that the general Human Paladin were warcraft pharisees

King Arthas: I can't believe that any of you survived the first purge. No matter. After today, your self-righteous order will cease to exist.

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In this nebulous timeline where the Blood Knights DIDN'T get redeemed, I wonder how "good" the lore would be where Blood Elves have an infinite supply of Naaru to suck light out of so they can be 2000's edgy-cool still.

The same universe probably still has the copious amounts of dragon rape.

That would require Velen and his Draenei not existing

[Combatbutler]

That would require Velen and his Draenei not existing

They have reached a point at which they are fine with using them as a battery as well to some extent. I mean they pretty much desecrated X'era's corpse for some scraps of power.

[Ardenaso]

People tend to forget that their characters are pretty much nobodies and an npc can claim their deeds at any moment.

Prime examples are the wielders of the artifact weapons

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Power_in_Our_Hands

This is why I disliked the garrison commander/champion of azeroth/class champion system; I prefer to think that the Ashbringer was canonically wielded by Maxwell, Doomhammer was wielded by Rehgar, Frostmourne twins were wielded by Darion, etc. and I prefer the "Varian canonically killed Onyxia" approach as well as the "Shandris/Rexxar was canonically the Alliance/Horde main character of BFA"

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They have reached a point at which they are fine with using them as a battery as well to some extent. I mean they pretty much desecrated X'era's corpse for some scraps of power.

Heh, I can see Liadrin or her second in command telling Illidan to Velen

[Combatbutler]

This is why I disliked the garrison commander/champion of azeroth/class champion system; I prefer to think that the Ashbringer was canonically wielded by Maxwell, Doomhammer was wielded by Rehgar, Frostmourne twins were wielded by Darion, etc. and I prefer the "Varian canonically killed Onyxia" approach as well as the "Shandris/Rexxar was canonically the Alliance/Horde main character of BFA"

Well we have a few canon wielders of the weapons through the npcs, Liadrin had the Ashbringer, Rehgar had the doomhammer, Darion had apocalypse.

Heh, I can see Liadrin telling Illidan to Velen

Velen is the one that gives you the job to harvest Xera's corpse XD

[Ardenaso]

Liadrin had the Ashbringer

Why doesn't she wield it in BFA? I assume she returned it to Hearthglen or Light's Hope?

[Combatbutler]

Why doesn't she wield it in BFA? I assume she returned it to Hearthglen or Light's Hope?

Well it was used to depower Sargeras's sword, so it should be unusable now, so yeah quite possible she gave it back.