Got booted. Am I the bad guy?

[czarek]

TBH you can just pass it to someone if not really need on that i usually doin that. No need = link on chat and make roll just. May u need it for offspec or transmo? I know some just dont share the loot. Ok loot belong to them its personal just some ppl can not deal with it.

[Dalinos]

An unsatisfying, tragic conclusion in a situation where everyone acted in their own selfish interests. That we have to conclude no-one was morally at fault, says more about the state of the community and degree to which selfish behaviour is deemed acceptable, than it does about the individual players involved.

This sums up the whole thread, to be honest. The situation sucks for EVERYONE involved (The OP, who got kicked. The low-geared hunter, who saw an upgrade go to someone who didn't need to use it as an item. The rest of the raid, for having 1 member leave, and waiting for a replacement) and is a lose-lose-lose situation, on every single aspect. Yet, because it is within the "Rules of the game" (I.E, how personal loot works in a PUG environment), the only logical conclusion, when considering the letter of the law, is that noone is at fault.

And this is sickening. 0 community aspect (ofc, you/they won't see each other again, due to cross-realm features), 0 willingness to help out your fellow player (both from OP's side and from the raid's side, they could've easily just given him any other random Azerite gearpiece that wasn't needed by anyone so he can get is Residum), 0 willingness to put each other into each other's shoes. Feels more like other players are a bad-side, a liability, instead of being the whole fucking REASON one plays an MMO instead of a single-player RPG.

[Monster Hunter]

23 pages, huh?

Anyway, do people actually care about pug raids this much in the first place? You looted the item from the boss in a random raid, don't overthink.

i think every one has encountered at least one entitled little scrub who thinks they have a right to your loot item because its trade-able, its often an infuriating interaction that ultimately leads to people not trading any loot / just ignoring whispers as i do, its an emotive subject especially when you get one or two who defend and promote the scubs feeling of entitlement.

[Ravenyx]

You have no obligation whatsoever to random pugs regardless of content. You play for yourself, not them. Obviously in a guild scenario it would have made sense because having higher ilvl guild members also benefits you. The loot system is designed to avoid this in the first place and whispering people is circumventing that system. Guess what? EVERYBODY is biased. There's nothing wrong with that.

[SirCowdog]

There is a difference between the power to do something and the right to do something.
I'm not sure what you mean about a prior agreement? When you join a PuG there is no tacit expectation that you will just be randomly kicked for any conceivable reason barring whatever is explicitly discussed. In fact, it's quite the opposite, people have the reasonable expectation they won't be kicked unless they breach some prior agreement (or just generally do the wrong thing like ninja pulling or afking during trash or FDing during boss fights).
What if the RL kicked the OP for no discernable reason at all? What if the RL kicked all the lefthanded people in the raid? All the warlocks? Whoever was position 5 in the raid every 29 minutes?

No, the RL does not have the 'right' to kick someone for no justifiable reason, merely the power to.


Kicking someone because your rude dickbag friend dropped his spaghetti over a helm (that is apparently not even good) doesn't make you a good friend. It makes you a bigger dickbag by approving and encouraging your friend's misconduct.

I don't care if the raid was started for the sole purpose of gearing that hunter: 1. It wasn't explained to the pugs; and; 2. Siding with your friend after they start screeching in public and kicking over the tables because they want someone else's toy (that they have 0 claim to) speaks to a real lack of character.

Frankly, in my view, I see everything wrong with how the RL acted. They were the main perpetrator at the end of the day, it's one thing to be rude and greedy, it's quite another to knowingly misuse a position of authority to support that greedy rudeness.

What's the saying that people always roll out?

"If you don't like it, form your own group."

What I meant by there being no prior arrangements or agreements is that PUGs generally just put up the raid or boss they're doing, and let personal loot work things out.

But sometimes group leaders put conditions on things. I agree that it should be made clear up front to avoid confusion.

But my point was that no conditions were set. In such a scenario a person joining a PUG raid should probably do so with the understanding that they can be removed whenever, for whatever reason. Assuming otherwise(especially assuming wow players will be fair or generous) is a gamble and a risk.

Why do you think so many people in this thread have suggested just not looting and waiting for the postmaster to deliver? It's nice to think PUG wow players will be benevolent, but generally and historically speaking they aren't. That's why personal loot became mandatory in the first place.

[Maevens]

The idea of selfishness is always skewed by personal bias. It's got nothing to do with "selfishness being accepted" but rather that this sits right in the middle where you can side either way depending on where your personal bias lies.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. All parties involved acted solely in their own interest. Because of loot rules, context and what is deemed acceptable in this community, no-one was at fault. I think that is a tragic, morally bankrupt conclusion and personally would prefer to be part of a community where it's considered normal for people to help each other out even if they don't personally gain anything from it. Sometimes I think that may have been more the case prior to silent Group Finder dungeon runs for currency in Wrath, but that is probably looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses. If that's what you mean by personal bias, then I suppose we agree, though I can only view people who play this game strictly for their own gain and see others as either obstacles or instruments to that purpose, with a mixture of sadness and regret that such is the world we live in.

[Great Destiny Man]

i think every one has encountered at least one entitled little scrub who thinks they have a right to your loot item because its trade-able, its often an infuriating interaction that ultimately leads to people not trading any loot / just ignoring whispers as i do, its an emotive subject especially when you get one or two who defend and promote the scubs feeling of entitlement.

Any time I want loot in PuGs these days I just leave it in the corpse and get from mailbox later, cause I just can't be arsed with any potential drama.

Sadly doesn't stop the ones that can't read properly and ask you to hand over your bonus roll loot, even after you explain it's a bonus roll.

[Saltysquidoon]

What's the saying that people always roll out?

"If you don't like it, form your own group."

*snip*

But my point was that no conditions were set. In such a scenario a person joining a PUG raid should probably do so with the understanding that they can be removed whenever, for whatever reason. Assuming otherwise(especially assuming wow players will be fair or generous) is a gamble and a risk.

Why do you think so many people in this thread have suggested just not looting and waiting for the postmaster to deliver? It's nice to think PUG wow players will be benevolent, but generally and historically speaking they aren't. That's why personal loot became mandatory in the first place.

I'm probably in a privileged position because I've not pugged a raid in a long long time so resultantly I'm less exposed to this behaviour than most people here it seems, which ok I understand that.

But the point of all of my posts has never been about what does happen but rather what should happen.
Yes PUG RLs can kick people for petty unjustifiable reasons without recourse, apparently that's common perhaps it's almost ubiquitous (which would sadden me). That doesn't justify the behaviour, commonality doesn't correspond with acceptability.
The RL acted out of petty self-interest and even worse acted in aid of another's petty self-interest. Maybe they were 'punished' by the raid dissolving, likely they weren't it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. However, it's pretty blatantly obvious to any reasonable observer the action was at least unjustified if not explicitly immoral.

My issue with this thread is more people saying that the RL has the 'right' to kick someone (as opposed to the power) for no reason more than the actual conduct. Because they are implying that they would be fine with it if it happened to them when clearly anyone would be at least annoyed to be on the receiving end of that conduct which makes their posts at best a self-delusion and at worst just directly a lie.

[Maevens]

My issue with this thread is more people saying that the RL has the 'right' to kick someone (as opposed to the power) for no reason more than the actual conduct. Because they are implying that they would be fine with it if it happened to them when clearly anyone would be at least annoyed to be on the receiving end of that conduct which makes their posts at best a self-delusion and at worst just directly a lie.

If the OP was not at fault for keeping his loot since there were no rules set, then the RL was not at fault for kicking him either. Either PUGs are a moral vacuum where everyone plays for their own selfish gains and is free to (ab)use others for that purpose, or a sense of fairness and community spirit applies, even in a situation where no rules were agreed on prior to the run starting, in which case the OP was a bit of a dick for keeping a chance of an upgrade for himself even when someone else could directly benefit, and the RL was at fault for kicking someone out of spite. But you cannot absolve the OP and condemn the RL at the same time.

[xenogear3]

PUG got kicked by a raid leader without reason is not OK.
It is a flaw in the old MMORPG system.

The current MMORPGs all have auto group system to avoid that.
Blizzard had too. It is called LFR and LFD.

The problem is WoW lost subs between the last patch and the beginning of an expansion, such as right now.
Guild is the only way to keep subscription, because raiders are afraid to loss raid spot when they unsub.
This is why Blizzard nerfed LFR.

It is really sad that people are obsessed with digital items which will be obsoleted in a few months.

[Kaibhan]

It's possible to be both a dick and in the right. In typical /amitheasshole fashion I'll go with ESH. Everyone sucks here. I'm all for helping out the team which OP didn't do which in turn makes OP kinda a dick. However, OP won the loot, it's theirs to do as they please. The raid lead is a dick for booting over not sharing the loot. Not cool. OP won it, it's OP's loot. Raid lead needs to move the fuck on. Hunter is a dick because people begging for gear are dicks. What we have here is one big sausage party.

[Monster Hunter]

Any time I want loot in PuGs these days I just leave it in the corpse and get from mailbox later, cause I just can't be arsed with any potential drama.

Sadly doesn't stop the ones that can't read properly and ask you to hand over your bonus roll loot, even after you explain it's a bonus roll.

i have had that off a guy, bonus rolled something a back in uldir days and the dude was possibly the worst loot scrounger i have ever encountered. first of all he started off with "i need that" instead of asking if it was available, i whispered back sorry cant trade its bonus loot, but some how i don't think he understood about bonus loot, cos he just launched into tons and tons of insults about how he needs it and he should get it and i need to give it him or he would report me... blah blah. in the end i just put him on ignore and reported him. i haven't traded loot to any one but guild members since, fuck em is my motto i dont ask for loot and i dont give out loot and any pugs who whisper me dont get a reply, if they persist they go on ignore.

- - - Updated - - -

If the OP was not at fault for keeping his loot since there were no rules set, then the RL was not at fault for kicking him either. Either PUGs are a moral vacuum where everyone plays for their own selfish gains and is free to (ab)use others for that purpose, or a sense of fairness and community spirit applies, even in a situation where no rules were agreed on prior to the run starting, in which case the OP was a bit of a dick for keeping a chance of an upgrade for himself even when someone else could directly benefit, and the RL was at fault for kicking someone out of spite. But you cannot absolve the OP and condemn the RL at the same time.

the OP needed the item for the residium to buy them selves and upgrade, the op had a legit reason, that item got him the last residium he needed to get a 475 item, the RL had no reason other than spite.

[Not A Cat]

IMO the raid leader/hunter are in the wrong for how they reacted to you wanting to keep your loot. Yeah, you keeping it instead of giving it to the hunter is a little selfish, but selfish isn't always bad. In this case, it was to get yourself an upgrade so I think your actions are justified.

They're obviously within their right to kick you, but they're dicks for doing it. Especially since they didn't establish any loot rules. If they had mentioned anything along the lines of, "feed my hunter friend gear or kick" then that's fine. But it sounds like they didn't do that.

[Saltysquidoon]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. All parties involved acted solely in their own interest. Because of loot rules, context and what is deemed acceptable in this community, no-one was at fault. I think that is a tragic, morally bankrupt conclusion and personally would prefer to be part of a community where it's considered normal for people to help each other out even if they don't personally gain anything from it. Sometimes I think that may have been more the case prior to silent Group Finder dungeon runs for currency in Wrath, but that is probably looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses. If that's what you mean by personal bias, then I suppose we agree, though I can only view people who play this game strictly for their own gain and see others as either obstacles or instruments to that purpose, with a mixture of sadness and regret that such is the world we live in.

The OP was literally going to use the piece to upgrade his character through residium (which is literally the point of gear), it's not like he sharded it in front of the other hunter for laughs. He was acting out of self-interest but he was hardly being selfish or unreasonable.

The other hunter threw a childish bitchfit and started hurling insults then got his buddy (the RL) to kick the OP. You yourself say the RL's actions were motivated out of spite, they were clearly at least unjustified.

This is my point, it is painfully obvious the raid leader's actions were blatantly unjustified. What I'm not understanding is why people posting here are saying because it's technically allowable and event potentially common that they would be ok with it happening to them (when anyone would be annoyed).

[Gurg]

This is absurd to me, initially i was kinda unsure of what i was suppsoed to do, but that is no longer the case. I allready mentioned a few pages earlier that ill probably inform future raid leaders if i ever intended to join for minor loot reasons again (transmog/residium), to avoid conflcit going forward. I dont like that mailbox suggestion though, as i am fine with giving away most of the loot that drops for me. However there was another very decent suggestion of keeping the azerite piece for now to trade it for another later on if anything else happened, which would have probably worked out.

Just do the mailbox thing. I do it too while in PUGs. avoids all unnecessary drama.
Even after explaining people why you have joined, which you are not obligated to do, there will always be special snowflakes that think they should be exception and you should give them the loot. You are dealing with humans after all.
Azerite idea could also work, keeping the pieces for tradeoffs during the raid if something drops that you want.

I really dont see the reason to "no longer allow you in HC pugs" or that you should "fork over every piece of loot that drops for you". Your ilvl is literally written in apply form, therefore its obvious that you are joining because you want something from the run. You are not bored, nor you dont have anything better to do.
If they decided to invite you for the benefit of high ilvl, thus higher DPS for faster clear they should be aware that it doesnt mean that you will automatically fork over any piece of gear that it drops. After all, its personal loot system. what you get is yours to do what you want with it.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Yes, but the difference is that him choosing to exercise his right to keep the piece for himself for a legitimate need doesn't make him a dick, whereas the raid leader choosing to remove him from the group, essentially out of spite, does.

I don't think it's spiteful to remove people who doesn't value the team effort and I don't think it's "a dick move" to keep items you won through personal loot. Everyone is free to make their own choices, which they did in this case. OP wasn't a dick, the group wasn't a dick. Move on.

[Raelbo]

I don't think it's spiteful to remove people who doesn't value the team effort

Except he wasn't removed for failing to "value the team effort". He was removed for failing to comply with an unreasonable request. That's tantamount to being extorted.

Everyone is free to make their own choices, which they did in this case. OP wasn't a dick, the group wasn't a dick. Move on.

Yes, of course everyone is free to make their own choices. Some choices are dickish, others aren't. In this case it was the group that was. Move on.

[Lodreh]

Easy fix... don't loot the bosses and let the items get mailed to you... no loot drama.

[Pakomyuop]

Relax, this is just a game)

[Tronski]

Then it's obviously a matter of miscommunication then. OP did not make it clear what he was there for. I don't think anyone would have an issue giving him spare pieces of un-needed loot so he can Scrap them, if he was willing to give away the loot that he got instead. Since OP was there for Residum, it doesn't matter WHAT item he scraps, as long as he scraps AN azerite item. Seems like all of this could've been solved, on the spot, with better communication.

But he did tell him/them that he needed the residuum, and the response was only ridicule. That's not miscommunication, that's assholery.