I now have 62% unbuffed haste.

[Mozu]

No it would still have the same affect because the 50% becomes normal that means when you go back down to 50% it will still feel extremely slow. Just like how going from a char with 310 riding to one with 280 feels like the 280 one is going so slow.

Yeah, that's not how that works. In MOP everything was fast the entire expansion. It never felt "extremely slow," despite it being "normal" as you say. There's a big difference between feeling slower and feeling unplayably slow.

[tru]

Haste is the stat that I believe they should just have everyone start at significantly higher and balance accordingly. There's not a single person who enjoys when their character plays slow as shit for 75% of an expansion.

Used to not be a haste stat. I've always felt that forever changed combat and not for a good way. Shouldn't be about gcd locked and Masters of 1000 wet noodle strikes. And breakpoints where x spells do extra blah cause stuff happens faster.

Would much rather have ArP or even mulitstrike. It's the new norm and everything NEEDS haste to even feel like a decent spec.

[Skorpionss]

I agree. But power progression is also important. It doesn’t really make sense to gain haste if they just balance it. Maybe they should just remove haste as a stat.

While we're at it just remove all stats and replace them with Attack/Defense, that'll make the game better... /s

Although I'd be okay with losing Haste if they bring back some of the other stats they've removed like Armor penetration and Multistrike.

[Lei]

Not to forget how they completely and utterly fucked up the mob scaling in BfA. And of course scaling doesn't stop on max level, mobs grow with your gear. It's just a big pile of shit how it feels early on because of these combined fuckeries we have going on now.
I went back to Nazjatar to finish my meta. I see mobs with 190 k hp, another one with 300 k hp. Non elites, mind you. Just why. And they can't kill me (it really feels like I'm going back there from a new expansion and I'm low geared, with slap on essences and corruptions) but they have just so much health.

[Wramp]

Once you enter Torghast and buff yourself with 3000% haste, you'll feel better.
Until you exit Torghast.

ok, NOW i see why folks want to run it over and over...the Haste buffs!

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Not to forget how they completely and utterly fucked up the mob scaling in BfA. And of course scaling doesn't stop on max level, mobs grow with your gear. It's just a big pile of shit how it feels early on because of these combined fuckeries we have going on now.
I went back to Nazjatar to finish my meta. I see mobs with 190 k hp, another one with 300 k hp. Non elites, mind you. Just why. And they can't kill me (it really feels like I'm going back there from a new expansion and I'm low geared, with slap on essences and corruptions) but they have just so much health.

Mobs do scale with your gear but its not a 1:1 ratio, they just make it enough to challenge(As in not one shot it), You can still get past it.

[Lei]

Mobs do scale with your gear but its not a 1:1 ratio, they just make it enough to challenge(As in not one shot it), You can still get past it.

The "bfa starter experience" with mob scaling was dire for many classes, and the devs answer was "itemlevel will fix it" basically. That was my first point. My second point is that it doesn't make much sense how scaling works in bfa with even non elite mobs having vastly different amount of hp totally randomly.

[FelPlague]

I can't imagine how much it will suck to go down to 4-5% when Shadowlands is out. I mean expansion power resets have been a thing, but man this is just going to suck...

welcome to every expansion ever, it always feel bad going from full BIS gear ot randsom greens.

[Athulua]

welcome to every expansion ever, it always feel bad going from full BIS gear ot randsom greens.

Not always. Blizzard used to add stuff on new expansion, now they tend to remove it.
You lost your epics and maxed out stats but you gained new talents, new abilities, lots of new content to play
WOD was the first expansion where they removed more than they added. This was the first round of ability pruning
Then Legion went way overboard with it and made some specs literally have 3 buttons, dps cooldown included.

This is how my early MOP BM rotation looked like:
-cobra shot as focus generator
-arcane shot as focus dumper
-kill command as primary nuke on short cd
-kill shot as execute ability (<20% hp)
-bestial wrath as a short DPS cooldown (60s)
-lynx rush as a moderate DPS cooldown (2 min)
-stampede as a big DPS cooldown (5 min)
-an ability that resets all CD's under 5 mins (Readiness, 3 min cd on its own)
-engineering enchant activated on use (60s cd)

AOE rotation also had more abilities
-choice between Glavie Toss and Barrage depending on number of targets (these abilities were used in single target rotation as well)
-Multi Shot as staple (filler)
-Explosive Trap (this wasn't used much in single target but definitely used a lot in AOE)

That was a lot of buttons to mash, so even at low gear levels with no secondary stats (hit and expertise reforging was eating anything else, i had like 4% crit after hitting 90) the gameplay was high APM and engaging.

Now if you combine removal of many borrowed power systems + ability pruning + no stats you get a bland husk of a class that is very unsatisfying to play. BFA did some other dun fuckery as well with weird mob scaling, people were hitting 340 item level and finding the mobs more difficult than at 280, fresh out of the box. There was no visible power progression. Your power gain was always pretty evident on your usual daily quest routine, where mobs would die faster and faster and you could do much larger pulls. BFA systems made this impossible which is why this expansion had opinions of being "worse than WOD" at launch.

[Speedlance]

I level up a warrior now with hast heirlooms and enchants. Its so fun to play with that speed.

[Zapporius]

remember when having multiple stats above and/or close to 50% was normal by the end of an expansion?
now, reaching 35% base of ONE SINGLE stat is super hard without corruptions. also, all your other stats will be super bad.
even without azerite pieces, which do not have secodary stats (which they definitively should have had since bfa launch), i dont think, we would have seen stat budgets that could be compared to what we had before bfa.


i want stat budgets to go back to pre-bfa levels, having about 30% of your most desired stat by the time you're pre-raid geared.

The whole azerite thing just sucked ass whole expansion. Raids felt like whatever since you could farm M+, there were no tier pieces to look forward to. Just because Activision is too lazy to develop sets. The looks of characters are shit whole expansion as well. Everybody is transmogging to either tier pieces from previous expansions or some wonky mashups. BfA definitely killed off wow fun for me.

[Athulua]

The whole azerite thing just sucked ass whole expansion. Raids felt like whatever since you could farm M+, there were no tier pieces to look forward to. Just because Activision is too lazy to develop sets. The looks of characters are shit whole expansion as well. Everybody is transmogging to either tier pieces from previous expansions or some wonky mashups. BfA definitely killed off wow fun for me.

actually the current gearing system works well. I like it.

Before Legion it was literally raid or die. Rewards from activity other than raiding (or high rated PvP) were ending on Normal raid level AT MOST. And there was still heroic and mythic raiding above this. The gear gap between raiding players and non raiding players was huge. And even if something reached item levels of normal raids it was crap compared to it - trinkets were simple stat sticks for example. 200 agility 200 haste 200 crit, that's it.

Now raids are 445 460 475 (normal hc mythic)
Mythic dungeons scale up to 465 (regular drop) and 475 (weekly chest)
Horrific vision loot is up to 470 (just shy of mythic level)
on top of this you had corruptions on almost any gear
You don't have to raid in order to reach very good gear on your character. Mythic raider will still propably have better gear but if you run a lot of M+15 dungeons and weave in 5 mask visions you won't be far off them.

Azerite could be a good replacement for tier sets if done right. Unfortunately it was not done right at all. The traits were all over the place, too random, too gated behind AP grinds. There were some very good traits and some very bad traits. Lack of secondary stats on azerite armor was a mistake, gating traits behind AP levels was a mistake too. Eventually the system became decent in 8.2 when they added essences on top of this.

Shadowlands could turn out to be better. We have the un-pruning of abilities, that's a very good start. Coventants is the quirky thing, but at least they give us a chance to test them and provide feedback. Azerite armors weren't on beta until like a week before launch. It was a trainwreck of a system with little to no testing.

[Lulbalance]

Secondary values this high weren't as possible without Corruption.

They most definitely have been.

[Justpassing]

68% now and counting. Guess I have to wait for the expedient II & III to be in stores again, but yeah it ain't my first reset and it probably won't be the last, but I just am so enjoying this setup it's crazy... but yeah I guess losing the Legion legendaries was worse.

[deenman]

After going from a 100% ArPen Blood DK DPS in ICC to Cata.. You have nothing to even talk about feeling bad come the start of a new Expansion.

well you cant rly compare armorpen with haste,armor pen is basicaly str,just adds flat dmg,haste not only has a substantial change in the feeling of gameplay,it also affects global cd's and enegery/focus regen,it can change rotations

[Athulua]

68% now and counting. Guess I have to wait for the expedient II & III to be in stores again, but yeah it ain't my first reset and it probably won't be the last, but I just am so enjoying this setup it's crazy... but yeah I guess losing the Legion legendaries was worse.

perhaps with ability un-pruning it will be better.
BFA on launch just didn't had enough stuff to press. No legendaries, no artifact ability, no artifact traits (such as reduced cooldowns, more charges etc), no tier sets, another round of ability pruning. It became playable in 8.2 and actually fun in 8.3 after we gained essences (sort of replacing artifact abilities) and massive stat stacks from ilvl inflation and corruptions.

We came a long way since Classic, in which pressing one button (sunder armor for tanks, frostbolt for mages in MC etc.) was acceptable. For me Mists of Pandaria was the apex of class gameplay with engaging rotations, lots of abilities and high APM gameplay. Warlords was decent as well, sure there was some ability pruning but not that much compared to WOD-Legion transition and you still had things like aspect of the fox for hunter or amplify magic for mages.

[Super Kami Dende]

well you cant rly compare armorpen with haste,armor pen is basicaly str,just adds flat dmg,haste not only has a substantial change in the feeling of gameplay,it also affects global cd's and enegery/focus regen,it can change rotations

It was more the fact I went from a full arPen DPS to a Tank.

Going from DPS to tank has far more of a substantial change than any stat.

[dcc626]

remember when having multiple stats above and/or close to 50% was normal by the end of an expansion?
now, reaching 35% base of ONE SINGLE stat is super hard without corruptions. also, all your other stats will be super bad.
even without azerite pieces, which do not have secodary stats (which they definitively should have had since bfa launch), i dont think, we would have seen stat budgets that could be compared to what we had before bfa.


i want stat budgets to go back to pre-bfa levels, having about 30% of your most desired stat by the time you're pre-raid geared.

then they will make stat advancement smaller for the rest of the xpac. and people will complain that they arent getting stronger. you either start out low and build up or start out high and stay there.

- - - Updated - - -

Haste just shouldn't be a secondary at this point. It's far too intrinsic to making classes "fun" or hitting certain breakpoints that completely change the best talents or other choices for specs, in a way that hasn't existed since before Fire Mage had enhanced pyrotechnics. Replace it with multistrike or something if you have to, but having a situation where a character feels like complete shit without gear just because of an arbitrary lockout of pressing abilities (1.5sec GCD vs .75 sec GCD) just isn't fun anymore. It doesn't feel like character power progression, it feels like server architecture lag reduction progression.

if players had their way everyone would start with everything. i dont know about you but games where i could immediately be a superhero got boring pretty quick.

in other words, im glad blizzard doesnt always listen to players.

- - - Updated - - -

We'll see how the stat inflation will be in Shadowlands now that gear will just be gear.

its still going to be a 30 ilvl jump every tier.

- - - Updated - - -

Corruption has blown legion out of the water in comparison to borrowed power.

and our arguing for, and getting the vendor has made it way worse. corruption as a system wasnt designed around being able to stack all your gear with 1 corruption on every piece. so yeah, its going to feel way worse. but its what we asked for.

[Kumorii]

its still going to be a 30 ilvl jump every tier.

But they don't give 12% * X from all sources including gear... which is the biggest inflation we have currently.

[dcc626]

ok, NOW i see why folks want to run it over and over...the Haste buffs!

people want to run it over and over because its new and the only real content on the alpha after you check out the zones a bit.

- - - Updated - - -

The whole azerite thing just sucked ass whole expansion. Raids felt like whatever since you could farm M+, there were no tier pieces to look forward to. Just because Activision is too lazy to develop sets. The looks of characters are shit whole expansion as well. Everybody is transmogging to either tier pieces from previous expansions or some wonky mashups. BfA definitely killed off wow fun for me.

cool. looking forward to what you hate in shadowlands.

- - - Updated - - -

They most definitely have been.

i have 50% vers with corruption. with more resistance i will likely sit well over 60%. tell me thats possible without corruption.