"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[Nobleshield]

@Nobleshield you mean the sort of people who decline you from m+15 for playing holy priest or guardian druid because that's not what they see on MDI? Yes, it's becoming more and more common and it got worse with 1) widespread streaming 2) class stacking being more and more overused by true top players. For example legion MDIs had much less class stacking than the recent ones and bigger team comp variety, if I see season2 teams having triple rogue or season4 teams having triple hunter what message does it leave to the audience.

Something like that yes. I've seen far too many people imitate the top no matter what, and 99% of the time it's someone who is like maybe upper echelon but still nowhere near the actual top. They're just parroting bullshit and making it stick because they usually think that they're a top 1% player and if everyone else didn't suck they would be recognized as such.

That's why I call them "midcore". They are above average, sure, but a far cry from the actual top tier and it's almost always this "midcore" level that you find spewing such vehemence about "scrubs" and "bads" and how much better they are than everyone else and everyone needs to l2p, etc. etc. It's like some sort of lashing out at the fact they're just good enough to be better than the norm but aren't good enough to be the top level that they want to imitate.

[EbaumsTipster]

Every single person (poster or commenter) who's bitching about being locked into a Covenent has 0% reason to bitch about min-maxing unless you're a die hard, raider, PvPer or M+'er.

The problem is that human beings aren't rational, and reality isn't based around facts and logic. If the majority of people have hurt feelings on something due to strictly emotional reasons (like "it doesn't FEEL right!") then it doesn't matter what the facts or the data is behind it: the socially constructed truth for the majority of people becomes "this is objectively bad".

Just because Argument ad Populum is a fallacy doesn't mean it doesn't make the rules.

Like Torments, it doesn't matter what Blizzard does with a feature if the majority (or enough to make a difference) group of players hates it no matter what due to how it makes them feel.

[Lolites]

It's because they over play their skill level by playing what ever is op atm. It lets them do content they normally couldn't if all things were equal.

even on OP classes there will be performance difference among bosses with different covenant abilities, i know they are crazy enough to have 4 of the same class ready for that, but still, you would think if there is someone who should have problem with this having impact on performance (or at least on time needed to get the top performance), its someone on the peak... but reality seems to be different

[Lahis]

There's a difference though.

There's nothing wrong with being competitive, but when it starts becoming a point of contention and anger, you (in general) need to step back and reevaluate.

Is that extra 1% going to really help you push from a 14 to 15? Nah, it's not. Is that 1% going to make you look like a hero when you're the last one alive on a raid boss you've wiped to repeatedly? It might, but it's not going to help the myriad of flaws that allowed that situation to happen (Bad tanking, bad healing, bad dpsing by everyone else, etc etc). And that 1% definitely ain't gonna help you in PvP, where it's not all about the LEET DEEPS.

A lot of people forgot what the game was about a long time ago. Have fun with your characters, make them look bad-ass, derpy as shit, or a fun mix inbetween. Find new and interesting ways to use the abilities given to you (Kultiran: Proc TD, Stormhammer stun into Haymaker, throws them straight through the TD for multiple hits).

So what will you do when the rest of your party skips 5 trash packs by teleporting straight to the upper floor of the dungeon and you have no way to follow them because you didn't pick Venthyr?

(Probably nothing because you didn't get into the dungeon in the first place because you didn't have Venthyr.)

[Nobleshield]

So what will you do when the rest of your party skips 5 trash packs by teleporting straight to the upper floor of the dungeon and you have no way to follow them because you didn't pick Venthyr?

(Probably nothing because you didn't get into the dungeon in the first place because you didn't have Venthyr.)

And this illustrates the entire problem.

[MrKnubbles]

This system is similar to our current talent system. What people don't understand is that while Option A might sim 5% better than Option B, the latter could prove to be much better for certain players depending on their playstyle. I pick what I enjoy based on how I play and what feels best to me. Only the elitist care what you choose and they shouldn't determine your fun.

[Lahis]

if there was just another ability or potion that can be used to skip trash instead of killing it...

With Venthyr and Invis potion you can do two skips. Still makes both of them mandatory.

[EbaumsTipster]

If Blizz doesn't disable the teleport I can see it attracting aggro if you move through mobs.

[Molvonos]

So what will you do when the rest of your party skips 5 trash packs by teleporting straight to the upper floor of the dungeon and you have no way to follow them because you didn't pick Venthyr?

(Probably nothing because you didn't get into the dungeon in the first place because you didn't have Venthyr.)

First off -- This is assuming you're Pugging it and looking through the Dungeon groups. It'd be safe to assume they'd list this as a requirement. In that case, you're right, you wouldn't get into -that- group. That's also assuming that the covenant mobility abilities function 100% in dungeons (I assume they won't). If you're alliance, you can circumvent this a bit by being a Void Elf (though I don't know 100% how the functionality of their void shift works). Rogues/Druids can stealth, Mages can Invis, Hunters can Camo. Warlock Gates, to my knowledge, function almost identically to Venthyr port.

Plus there are invis potions. Demon Hunter Imprison, currently, has the fun side effect of making the targeted mob 100% unaggroable, unlike Hex, Poly and any other CC.

I mean, sure, you can spend weeks on 'Whataboutisms' and 'Whatifs', but that's just dumb. Get a guild/community that doesn't have such a toxic mindset then.

[Omedon]

(Probably nothing because you didn't get into the dungeon in the first place because you didn't have Venthyr.)

And thus dodged a bullet for not playing with those people.

Again, Mythic+ is PUG enabled, and PUG capable, but not PUG intended. It's team content, not group content. PUGs are groups, not teams. That's the G. Teams consist of people you know, ideally your friends. Your friends aren't busting your balls over the covenant you chose for reasons that have nothing to do with performance. If they are... make better friends.

Not everyone can, will or should push their limits to the point that they need to do team content with groups. The whole game is optional, but as to content, the higher in difficulty one pushes, the more capital-O optional everything gets.

[Molvonos]

The problem is that human beings aren't rational, and reality isn't based around facts and logic. If the majority of people have hurt feelings on something due to strictly emotional reasons (like "it doesn't FEEL right!") then it doesn't matter what the facts or the data is behind it: the socially constructed truth for the majority of people becomes "this is objectively bad".

Just because Argument ad Populum is a fallacy doesn't mean it doesn't make the rules.

Like Torments, it doesn't matter what Blizzard does with a feature if the majority (or enough to make a difference) group of players hates it no matter what due to how it makes them feel.

That just makes that group objectively bad, then.

Like Flat Earthers or Moon Landing denialists.

Blizzard's not going to cater to a vocal minority that has next to no actual impact on their bottom line. Casual players are the majority, but they're not the ones bitching up a shitstorm about whatever they perceive to be wrong with covenants. If Method, for example, is happy with Covenants AND a great deal of the feedback they get on their official forums/social feeds is 'this works', then everything on this social feed/post bitching about how bad covenants are because of 'MUH FEELS', is dust in the wind.

Speaking of 'catering and vocal minority'. Blizzard saw they could make a great deal more money than they spent on Classic, which is why they did it. It also cements in legal highground for private servers and the like, so it's two-fold. I'm using this as an example. The amount of people that would quit WoW because of covenants is non-existent compared to the amount of money they'd make from people who'd enjoy it.

[Lahis]

If Blizz doesn't disable the teleport I can see it attracting aggro if you move through mobs.

It can't. That would require you to travel between the starting point and appearing point as some sort of targetable entity. As it it, you teleport straight to the target location.

[Elbob]

So what will you do when the rest of your party skips 5 trash packs by teleporting straight to the upper floor of the dungeon and you have no way to follow them because you didn't pick Venthyr?

(Probably nothing because you didn't get into the dungeon in the first place because you didn't have Venthyr.)

Yeah I have a hard time accepting this as a problem until I see it in the group finder for M+. Counting I've never seen a M+ grp require corruptions, your proposed problem is hypothetical to top tier M+ pushers atm who run in set grps 90% of the time and rarely pug. I really don't care if they need to take extra steps to do that min/maxing. The closest I've seen is grps requiring a rogue for a final spot in the grp for shroud or lock picking, but thats about a single spot.

Not to mention there are lots of other solutions to these problems. Priests/warlocks can grip/summon people who can't make the skip. Death skips have been a common M+ strat for a long time as well. Invis pots/stealth even work for trash skips. ORRRRR just use different routing since mob count is required anyway in M+.

[Lahis]

First off -- This is assuming you're Pugging it and looking through the Dungeon groups. It'd be safe to assume they'd list this as a requirement. In that case, you're right, you wouldn't get into -that- group. That's also assuming that the covenant mobility abilities function 100% in dungeons (I assume they won't). If you're alliance, you can circumvent this a bit by being a Void Elf (though I don't know 100% how the functionality of their void shift works). Rogues/Druids can stealth, Mages can Invis, Hunters can Camo. Warlock Gates, to my knowledge, function almost identically to Venthyr port.

Plus there are invis potions. Demon Hunter Imprison, currently, has the fun side effect of making the targeted mob 100% unaggroable, unlike Hex, Poly and any other CC.

I mean, sure, you can spend weeks on 'Whataboutisms' and 'Whatifs', but that's just dumb. Get a guild/community that doesn't have such a toxic mindset then.

Void Shift works completely differently. It launches a projectile in straight line and on recast/expiration you appear where the projectile was.

You can target Venthyr teleport anywhere on the ground with LOS. You can use it to teleport up and down cliffs, you can't do that with any other movement or stealth ability.

- - - Updated - - -

Not everyone can, will or should push their limits to the point that they need to do team content with groups. The whole game is optional, but as to content, the higher in difficulty one pushes, the more capital-O optional everything gets.

Tell that to the +15 groups that require 3k RIO and fail the damn run still.

[Lolites]

With Venthyr and Invis potion you can do two skips. Still makes both of them mandatory.

you can plan route that only needs one skip... or you take rogue with you...
or, the wildest theory, you will use MULTIPLE invisibility potions! i know wild concept...

obviously, it can be necessary for extremely high keys, but those are out of reach of most players anyway, so thats hardly some wide spread issue...
and yes, there will be morons asking it in +2, but same as with optimal class/spec/talents/corruptions and so on, you can just ignore those and get normal group, or actualy make group of your own...

[Lahis]

you can plan route that only needs one skip... or you take rogue with you...
or, the wildest theory, you will use MULTIPLE invisibility potions! i know wild concept...

obviously, it can be necessary for extremely high keys, but those are out of reach of most players anyway, so thats hardly some wide spread issue...
and yes, there will be morons asking it in +2, but same as with optimal class/spec/talents/corruptions and so on, you can just ignore those and get normal group, or actualy make group of your own...

You know Invis potion has 10 min CD? You can't wait for that during a timed dungeon.

[Omedon]

Tell that to the +15 groups that require 3k RIO and fail the damn run still.

N... No? Those people are playing a totally different game from me and are in their own headspace. Like I get what you're saying, but my response to the whole M+ hullabaloo is "man I'm glad I can safely not give a single refried f*** about that whole game mode!"

[Defend]

I promise you if the Imbalance stays as it is; picking the “wrong” covenant will Absolutely cost you a raid spot and/or cause you to get declined from mythic plus groups

[Lolites]

Tell that to the +15 groups that require 3k RIO and fail the damn run still.

thats great example, there are groups that require 3k score for +15
... and then there are groups that dont you can find group that have just some gear requirement and thats it, it will be the same with covenant abilities, some will require it, some wont, you just pick the group that dont and you are good to go

[Luxeley]

I disagree 100%. There's a 50/50 chance it costs you a raid spot in a guild. I'll gladly concede that point cause it's true, I may even have the percentages wrong, they could easily be less than 50/50. But, here's what I don't have wrong. Guilds break up when key players take a break from the game. That means you're looking for a new guild and putting yourself in a position to prove yourself again. Unless you're a tank or a healer, you better be as close as possible to being optimized or you'll find yourself on the beach. And, choosing the wrong covenant can easily do that.

As far as Pugs go, unless you're a tank or healer, Pugs are known for being sticklers and douche bags for everyone playing the meta. Sure, there are exceptions, but then again do you really want to wait around for 2 hours trying to find one. Pugs bitch and complain about players playing the wrong specialization, do you really think they're going to okay with someone choosing the wrong covenant because they offer a shinier pony?

I'm not saying I agree with the mentality of forcing players into certain choices, I don't. If someone can do the job and hold their own in a group setting, I don't care if they're playing the meta or not, but I assure you I am firmly in the minority.