Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Endus]

No one is saying Floyd deserved to be killed. Elevating him to sainthood is not what we should do either.

No one is "elevating him to sainthood".

And really, a checkered past is no barrier to sainthood. One of the most famous Saints was Augustine, who was, in his youth, a thief and a hedonist. He didn't enter the clergy until his mid-30s, and he'd already had one kid with a girl he'd been living with for years but not marrying, by then.

Oh, and Augustine was African, just to drive the comparison a little deeper.

[Easo]

I love how you have spent around 10 pages arguing about whether the last killing was justified or not.
He was shot IN THE BACK. By default for that alone, unless he was blindfiring behind him (with a taser? Lol) should make cops guilty. Because being shot in the back implies disengagement, not attack. And since the cop is now fired and chief resigned, that means that indeed, police is guilty on this one, not "politics".
Police ARE held to a higher standard. They HAVE to be able to subdue a drunk bufoon without killing him.

Some of you, how many times does this have to be repeated? GET. A. GRIP.

[Moonrage]

The religion and its history is inseparable. Religions are not unchanging principles, all religions evolve based on the circumstances of their worshippers. The gods mirror the requirements of the priests.

Christianity is a perfect example, the feudal political machine of the Medieval Catholic Church bears no resemblance to the Pentecostal Church on the local street corner, and precious little in common with the Modern Catholic church.

Likewise the Islam of Bin Laden and Bagdadi (Which have serious difference between them as well) has nothing in common with the Islam of a Mosque in a quiet neighborhood in Denver, Colorado. The claim that there is somehow a violent constant in Islam is absurd and ill informed. Islam is a violent religion to violent people, and a peaceful religion to peaceful people, exactly the same as every other religion on the damn planet.

The underlying social, political, and economic situation in many majority Muslim nations has created many extremely nasty versions of Islam, which is exactly what you would expect from such a situation. The US got Westburo Baptist Church and David Koresh out of a much more stable and peaceful society. Shithead people worship shithead gods, there is no evil bogeyman god making them do these things, just people making up the rules and claiming god told them too.

The people who came up with the terrorist attacks in Paris were born and raised in Molenbeek, Brussels, not in the middle east.

Islam is a violent relgion to non believers, and the religion in its entirety is not compatible with western values.

You cannot compare a Christian country to an Islamic one. In one, women are still oppressed and gays are outright assassinated, and we all know which one it is.
[Infraction]

[Krastyn]

No, they didn't "park in a spot" and no, the cops didn't "find them"--the cops were called because of it, the person admitted to the cops they'd been drinking, as if they needed to, so give it a rest with whatever desperate attempt this is to excuse the cops in both situations. Yes, it absolutely is arguably more serious. I realize people have some pathetic need to cling to BuT iT wAsN't RaCiSM, but it is. You merely have to cope with the "stress" of realizing it, while it costs black people their lives.

Your burning desire to find police at fault in both situations seems to be clouding any rational thought. Are you trying to argue in this case that the police should not have tried to arrest the driver?

The only way it is arguably more serious is if the person struck another person. At best, in both cases, the person was drinking and driving. However, in your case we have your anecdotal hearsay about what happened in one situation, versus a literal video of someone driving drunk. You also haven't provided when this happened (was it last week, or 10 years ago?), or in what city. Your story keeps changing. It went from someone who the police "had picked up in a parking lot and knew was under the influence", to someone who crashed the car. Those are two wildly different statements. Your anecdote is devoid of so many important details, it comes off like they are being released so they can be tailored to your narrative. Where as in this case, we have verifiable facts of the DUI (A failed sobriety test, a failed breathalyzer, and video of him driving while intoxicated). So no, I won't accept your piecemeal anecdote as the same as verifiable facts.

I could throw out my own anecdotes of people of different genders, races having police interactions due to impaired driving. It's near meaningless to compare them though, because the situations, locations, time, and officers involved are all different.

Personally I think in both case you presented, and this case, they should be arrested, car impounded and charged with a DUI. As I've already said, impaired driving enforcement (at least in my area) has been getting enforced stricter by year. So if your person did the same thing, in the same city, at the same time, arrested by the same officers as this guy, and was just put in the drunk tank with no cuffs, then yes, they treated him easier than they should have.They should have been harsher on him.

It doesn't change the fact that up until the point of putting cuffs on him in this case, that anything was done wrong.

[Moonrage]

No one is "elevating him to sainthood".

And really, a checkered past is no barrier to sainthood. One of the most famous Saints was Augustine, who was, in his youth, a thief and a hedonist. He didn't enter the clergy until his mid-30s, and he'd already had one kid with a girl he'd been living with for years but not marrying, by then.

Oh, and Augustine was African, just to drive the comparison a little deeper.

Yes they are, he’s basically a martyr now.

[Thekri]

The people who came up with the terrorist attacks in Paris were born and raised in Molenbeek, Brussels, not in the middle east.

Islam is a violent relgion to non believers, and the religion in its entirety is not compatible with western values.

You cannot compare a Christian country to an Islamic one. In one, women are still oppressed and gays are outright assassinated, and we all know which one it is.

A very ignorant and irrational stance. This sort of argument only makes sense if you believe there is an actual deity responsible for Islam, and that particular god is a dick. Otherwise, religion is a reflection of the humans worshiping it.

And if your argument relies on something being supernaturally evil, then it isn't a falsifiable position, it is just dumb.

[Endus]

Yes they are, he’s basically a martyr now.

He is a martyr.

"Martyr" /= "saint". And even if he were being canonized, so what?

Struggling to figure out what your issue could be with that.

[Moonrage]

A very ignorant and irrational stance. This sort of argument only makes sense if you believe there is an actual deity responsible for Islam, and that particular god is a dick. Otherwise, religion is a reflection of the humans worshiping it.

And if your argument relies on something being supernaturally evil, then it isn't a falsifiable position, it is just dumb.

Where did i say I believe a certain god is responsible? I know religion is a reflection of the humans worshipping it, so maybe it’s time islam goes through an actual reformation?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Islam is a violent relgion to non believers, and the religion in its entirety is not compatible with western values.

This is blatant bull shit and always has been, there Are millions of Muslims living in the west just fine and they have been doing so for generations. It’s no More incomparable then any other religion.

[kail]

Yes they are, he’s basically a martyr now.

Well yeah? Blame the cop for kneeling on his neck for 8 minutes and getting it captured on video. Previous events relied on witness accounts and physical evidence which was followed by debtate on which side was right. This one has footage that rallied even Fox News and Limbaugh to condemn the officer.

[Thekri]

Where did i say I believe a certain god is responsible? I know religion is a reflection of the humans worshipping it, so maybe it’s time islam goes through an actual reformation?

It already did. It got a lot more violent because of the circumstances of its worshipers. That is exactly what we are saying. The Middle East, North Africa, and Southern Asia got royally screwed by the process of decolonization during the 1960s and 1970s. This allowed far more violent and less tolerant religious sects to pop up everywhere, and gain large mainstream support (Although in most areas, those sects are still a minority), because the message of violence toward outsiders is far more appealing to the desperate and angry then the rich and comfortable.

The fair comparison is not between Poor, unstable Islamic Countries and Rich, stable, Christian nations. Take a look at Egypt, Turkey, Iran, and even Afghanistan in the 1960s, and you will see what Islamic culture and prosperity looks like.

"Islam is inherently violent" is a lazy, ignorant, and willfully destructive opinion with no basis in History, Theology, or current world affairs. While violence was a key part of the spread of Islam, it was a key part in the spread of every other religion as well, from the Greco-Roman and Norse Pantheons to Mormonism.

[Moonrage]

This is blatant bull shit and always has been, there Are millions of Muslims living in the west just fine and they have been doing so for generations. It’s no More incomparable then any other religion.

Then tell me why countries with the lowest living standards are often islamic countries?

- - - Updated - - -

It already did. It got a lot more violent because of the circumstances of its worshipers. That is exactly what we are saying. The Middle East, North Africa, and Southern Asia got royally screwed by the process of decolonization during the 1960s and 1970s. This allowed far more violent and less tolerant religious sects to pop up everywhere, and gain large mainstream support (Although in most areas, those sects are still a minority), because the message of violence toward outsiders is far more appealing to the desperate and angry then the rich and comfortable.

The fair comparison is not between Poor, unstable Islamic Countries and Rich, stable, Christian nations. Take a look at Egypt, Turkey, Iran, and even Afghanistan in the 1960s, and you will see what Islamic culture and prosperity looks like.

"Islam is inherently violent" is a lazy, ignorant, and willfully destructive opinion with no basis in History, Theology, or current world affairs. While violence was a key part of the spread of Islam, it was a key part in the spread of every other religion as well, from the Greco-Roman and Norse Pantheons to Mormonism.

Well didn’t those countries become that way thanks to the Islamic revolution?

[Edge-]

Then tell me why countries with the lowest living standards are often islamic countries?

https://amp.businessinsider.com/soci...of-life-2016-7

Central African Republic, 9% Islam, primary religion is Christianity - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...likite%20Sunni.

Problems not due to relgion.

Afghanistan, 99% Islamic - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...0Sunni%20Islam.

Problems partially due to religion, but more the expression of different tribal groups and inequality.

Chad, 55% Islam, 40% Christian or so - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...%20individuals.

Similarly, problems not stemming from religion but from historical exploitation of the region.

Angola, 40% Catholic, 40% Christian, rest are various - https://www.britannica.com/place/Ang...er%20religions.

See above for Chad.

This could go on.

No, this is just rank islamophobia and bigotry that tries to ignore centuries of historical context and blame their problems on a religion that may have few followers in the nation.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Then tell me why countries with the lowest living standards are often islamic countries?

That’s not relevant at all to rather Islam is comparable with the west or not you Goomba.

As to your obvious deflection though those country’s aren’t like that because of Islam but because of the west fucking with them in one way or another afghanistan didn’t magically become Muslim after the 60’s it was from the west and Russia fucking around in the Cold War which lead to radicalization and setting the country back.

[PosPosPos]

Struggling to figure out what your issue could be with that.

Because Moonrage isn't the one being canonized, so he's upset about it.

[Moonrage]

Because Moonrage isn't the one being canonized, so he's upset about it.

Oh my god, I’m upset because people are protesting while a virus is still sweeping across the country. Almost 10 0000 people have died here so far, is it that so hard to grasp??

[Elegiac]

Oh my god, I’m upset because people are protesting while a virus is still sweeping across the country. Almost 10 0000 people have died here so far, is it that so hard to grasp??

Man it must be quite an important issue they're protesting, then. If they're risking their lives and all. Maybe you should take an interest in the reason why?

[Moonrage]

Man it must be quite an important issue they're protesting, then. If they're risking their lives and all. Maybe you should take an interest in the reason why?

Yeah let’s risk the lives of people here over something that happened on the other side of the world.

Makes sense.

[Levelfive]

Your burning desire to find police at fault in both situations seems to be clouding any rational thought. Are you trying to argue in this case that the police should not have tried to arrest the driver?

The only way it is arguably more serious is if the person struck another person. At best, in both cases, the person was drinking and driving. However, in your case we have your anecdotal hearsay about what happened in one situation, versus a literal video of someone driving drunk. You also haven't provided when this happened (was it last week, or 10 years ago?), or in what city. Your story keeps changing. It went from someone who the police "had picked up in a parking lot and knew was under the influence", to someone who crashed the car. Those are two wildly different statements. Your anecdote is devoid of so many important details, it comes off like they are being released so they can be tailored to your narrative. Where as in this case, we have verifiable facts of the DUI (A failed sobriety test, a failed breathalyzer, and video of him driving while intoxicated). So no, I won't accept your piecemeal anecdote as the same as verifiable facts.

I could throw out my own anecdotes of people of different genders, races having police interactions due to impaired driving. It's near meaningless to compare them though, because the situations, locations, time, and officers involved are all different.

Personally I think in both case you presented, and this case, they should be arrested, car impounded and charged with a DUI. As I've already said, impaired driving enforcement (at least in my area) has been getting enforced stricter by year. So if your person did the same thing, in the same city, at the same time, arrested by the same officers as this guy, and was just put in the drunk tank with no cuffs, then yes, they treated him easier than they should have.They should have been harsher on him.

It doesn't change the fact that up until the point of putting cuffs on him in this case, that anything was done wrong.

No, my story didn't "change" at all, so that's a lie. You demanded more and more details (which I provided knowing it was a rabbit hole, and here you are still demanding even more, as predicted) looking for some way to insist the incidents weren't exactly the same and therefore can't be compared, in a bid to pretend it's not really racism, as predicted. Except it's 2 people, caught driving under the influence, one was let off without any paperwork even being filed, and the other was shot in the back. No shit it's anecdotal--it was a response to someone who said something along the lines of "black, white, green, DUI always results in arrests." But of course it doesn't--my anecdote fits in with a much larger, well documented and established pattern wherein black people are arrested at higher rates than white people for the same offenses (and are then considered more crime prone based on "statistics"), which was the point he was challenging when he said DUIs always incur arrests, regardless of race. Denying that's true in the face of all the evidence is bordering on deranged at this point. I just happen to have personal experience with it, but you don't need that when you should already know better.

[Endus]

Yeah let’s risk the lives of people here over something that happened on the other side of the world.

Makes sense.

Risking lives in the pursuit of justice is generally seen as a positive.

Unless you're trying to argue that "lives here" where you are are somehow "worth more" than the lives being lost "on the other side of the world", in which case we're going to have to point out that you're implicitly stating that white lives are "worth more" than black lives.

But given your outspoken prejudice against Muslims earlier, that kind of racism wouldn't be a shock.