Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Mayhem]

The people who came up with the terrorist attacks in Paris were born and raised in Molenbeek, Brussels, not in the middle east.

Islam is a violent relgion to non believers, and the religion in its entirety is not compatible with western values.

You cannot compare a Christian country to an Islamic one. In one, women are still oppressed and gays are outright assassinated, and we all know which one it is.

Wohooo Christian countries are ~70 years ahead, what an accomplishment, we should vilify those monsters and praise our own. Well except for the part about oppression, we still do that kind of, but that's because of tradition, so it's totally ok.

[PosPosPos]

Yeah let’s risk the lives of people here over something that happened on the other side of the world.

Makes sense.

Again, you are saying humans on the other side of the world are not humans.

[Endus]

They were the systems, not they are.

Are black Americans at a demographically-observed disadvantage today, or not? Are they more likely than other groups to be of lower socioeconomic status, for instance?

If that's true, you get a choice of two explanations;
1> Systemic racism exists, and the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow are not in the past, but present today, or
2> Black Americans are just inferior and that's why the demographics are that way (and this position, I'll pre-emptively note, is both racist as fuck and objectively incorrect on the facts).

Anyway, I guess what I'm expressing here (somewhat poorly) is that people are focused on the wrong thing. In the system we have, conflict with the police is inevitable, and the source of the problem is not those conflicts.

The #1 source of the problem in my area is segregation, and I am furious when I see the mayors of 90% white towns around me organizing events in memory of George Floyd. It's so amazingly hypocritical and no one calls them out on it because it's much easier to scapegoat the police. But if there were ever a proposal to turn any of their 3 acre palatial properties into apartment buildings, they would come out of the woodwork throwing up every possible defense they could think of without directly saying, "We don't want the brown people to live here." One town near me claims the sewer system can't handle more people, another talks about the "character of the town". It's all bullshit.

Then a second problem is our horribly broken educational system that is hell bent on trying to get kids who have no interest in college to go to college. If my school had some sort of way for kids to opt out of algebra and just learn basic arithmetic, I would guess that 30-40% of parents would sign their kids up for it. They're not interested in what our school system is desperately trying to shove down their throats. Doing that would then mean that the other 60% of kids would actually learn instead of being held back by the troublemakers in the class.

Hey, look, you're admitting your opening statement wasn't even true.

It's weird as fuck when you make a declaration and then prove it to be wrong yourself, and don't seem to be able to recognize that.

What worries me is that even if we fix the first two, the third problem might still be there. We have a culture where it is normal to have children at a young age with multiple partners, normal for fathers to abandon their children,

If you're speaking of black Americans, this is racist horse shit and is not true.

https://www.chicagoreporter.com/brea...s-fathers-day/

drug use is rampant, and no one understands the point of school or education, and very few people have a marketable skill.

This is a reaction to a systemically racist society, not the reason society is systemically racist. When it's more difficult to gain employment just because you're black, education is not the balancing factor you suggest. Yes, you have correctly noticed that people often don't rush to engage with a society that works to keep them in a disadvantaged position. And your stance on that is to blame the people suffering prejudice and discrimination. That's victim-blaming horseshit.

This feels like something that takes generations to fix, to rebuild cultural and societal norms that actually function.

That's sort of what these protests are about. Trying to do exactly that. Why are you taking a stance against it, then?

- - - Updated - - -

Hey I'll argue that to me, lives in my hometown are worth more than lives in Sweden. That's natural, I have a connection to them. More brown people in my hometown than in Sweden though.

Not everything is racism.

What you're describing is literally bigotry. You value lives of the "other" less than you value those of your in-group. That's bigotry.

[Moonrage]

Risking lives in the pursuit of justice is generally seen as a positive.

Unless you're trying to argue that "lives here" where you are are somehow "worth more" than the lives being lost "on the other side of the world", in which case we're going to have to point out that you're implicitly stating that white lives are "worth more" than black lives.

But given your outspoken prejudice against Muslims earlier, that kind of racism wouldn't be a shock.

As if Americans have ever marched or protested for something that happened in Europe. I normally wouldn’t mind but, again, there is a deadly virus going around and protesting just isn’t a smart idea.

[Levelfive]

This is a reaction to a systemically racist society, not the reason society is systemically racist. When it's more difficult to gain employment just because you're black, education is not the balancing factor you suggest. Yes, you have correctly noticed that people often don't rush to engage with a society that works to keep them in a disadvantaged position. And your stance on that is to blame the people suffering prejudice and discrimination. That's victim-blaming horseshit.

To be clear, black people and white people use and sell drugs at roughly the same rates, but black people are much more likely to be arrested for it, not offered diversion programs, and sentenced for longer.

Additionally, when white people abuse drugs, we consider it a national crisis, not a race-based character flaw.

[Moonrage]

Again, you are saying humans on the other side of the world are not humans.

Jesus fucking Christ, most Americans couldn’t care less about what happens in Europe.

We are risking our lives for something that isn’t even our problem. Just because it’s “cool” to follow Americans and do exactly as they do.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, you are saying humans on the other side of the world are not humans.

Jesus fucking Christ, most Americans couldn’t care less about what happens in Europe.

We are risking our lives for something that isn’t even our problem. Just because it’s “cool” to follow Americans and do exactly as they do.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And that gets to the third problem, which is the complete breakdown of society, the single mothers with many children with multiple partners, the drug use, the utter indifference to education and complete disengagement I see in my classroom every day.

You act like this came about naturally and wasn’t the direct response to the police and other government organizations interfering with community’s. This isn’t a side effect this was the goal break up black family’s keep them in the system To keep them down And as powerless as possible.

[Moonrage]

What you're describing is literally bigotry. You value lives of the "other" less than you value those of your in-group. That's bigotry.

So you’re saying you care just as much about people on the other side of the world, as you do about those close to you. Yeah makes absolute perfect sense.

[PosPosPos]

Jesus fucking Christ, most Americans couldn’t care less about what happens in Europe.

We are risking our lives for something that isn’t even our problem. Just because it’s “cool” to follow Americans and do exactly as they do.

Cool psychological projection. You couldn't care less about the lives of those outside of your clique, stop taking your own views to the extreme and assume everyone else are as apathetic or bigoted as you.

[Moonrage]

Cool psychological projection. You couldn't care less about the lives of those outside of your clique, stop taking your own views to the extreme and assume everyone else are as apathetic or bigoted as you.

Yeah because I don’t want people here to get sick because of all the goddamn protests. Call me a bigot then.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah because I don’t want people here to get sick because of all the goddamn protests. Call me a bigot then.

You outed you’re self as a bigot with your other post it has nothing to do with not wanting people get get sick.

[Bodonius]

Still not sure its about race, since they knew eachother.

[Moonrage]

You outed you’re self as a bigot with your other post it has nothing to do with not wanting people get get sick.

Yeah, I said protesting about something we have nothing to do with is stupid. But Americans are so accustomed to having the world revolve around them they see it as bigotry.

- - - Updated - - -

So is it bigotry to say that I value my parents more than a random stranger? If so then I'm a bigot. If my mom is starving and needs money to live I will give it to her, as much as she wants. I won't do that for someone in Europe.

The black fathers not living with kids is true. The study you linked showed the number of fathers who didn't live with their children is 41%, which is absolutely compatible with more than half of black children not living with their father, because I would guess that fathers who aren't at home have more kids - see George Floyd, 5 kids. Even if the number is 40%, that's still substantially higher than a functioning society should have.

Actually I just looked at the article you linked more closely, and here are some quotes from the article he referenced:

"Most black fathers live with their children. There are about 2.5 million who live with their children, and 1.7 million who don’t, according to the CDC."
"And when I examined Census reports about black children, I found that slightly more than half don’t have the same legal residence as their fathers."
"And some men of any race become what I call “serial impregnators,” having lots of children without raising them — more children than the good dads do. This helps explain the very different statistic."

"Fatherlessness is still a bigger problem statistically in the black community than it is among other racial groups."

Is it "racist horse shit", as you call it, if it's true?

My stance against it is the protests are largely focused on the police, who I think are this year's convenient scapegoat.

You get called a bigot for stating you care more about people you know than you do for complete strangers. Absolute madness.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah, I said protesting about something we have nothing to do with is stupid. But Americans are so accustomed to having the world revolve around them they see it as bigotry.

Nope what’s seen as bigotry would be your actual bigoted views You posted in the thread.

[Elegiac]

So you’re saying you care just as much about people on the other side of the world, as you do about those close to you. Yeah makes absolute perfect sense.

Love thy neighbor as thyself.

[Moonrage]

Nope what’s seen as bigotry would be your actual bigoted views You posted in the thread.

Not conding the protests = bigot.

Good, thanks for letting me know.

- - - Updated - - -

Love thy neighbor as thyself.

I love my neighbor which is why I don't want these protests to happen. I don't want them to die you know.

[Elegiac]

And that's what I'm fighting against. The stupidity in these hopeless movements that:

1. Find a convenient scapegoat that means they don't have to do anything themselves.
2. Include people who are utterly unable to recognize their humanity and pretend that they are these specimens of "woke" perfection who need to fix everyone else.

It's really easy to blame someone else for the problems we see. It's much harder to make sacrifices yourself. I did it. I work in a school district that has a lot of poor kids, and I could absolutely get a job in a better one, but it's a community I care more about (and honestly, it's a decision that I have a harder time making every year as our district gets poorer). It's also easy to pretend that you're perfect and make moronic statements like, "I care about everyone equally and if you don't you're a bigot." Ask anyone who they would rather see die... a loved one or a stranger. Obviously, the stranger. You need to admit that there are people whose lives you value you more than others, and that every single person does that. Otherwise you're just lying to yourself about who you are while you try to hold others to impossible standards.

And if you want to fix the problems you see, don't scapegoat the police, find the 10 worst things that the police have done in the past 5 years (in a nation of 300 million) and pretend that they are the systemic issue that needs fixing. Start with your own community. Vote for zoning changes. Vote for sane school policies. It's obvious.

TLDR: "I made it, therefore everyone else can, and if you fail it's your own fault."

We've heard this argument before, and prosperity gospel/the protestant work ethic continue to be BS made up to justify perpetuating a system of discrimination.

- - - Updated - - -

I love my neighbor which is why I don't want these protests to happen. I don't want them to die you know.

Good, then you should be just as eager to address the issues causing the protests in the first place!

Welcome to BLM.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not conding the protests = bigot.

Good, thanks for letting me know.

Nope, Being a bigot= bigot, as seen here.

Islam is a violent relgion to non believers, and the religion in its entirety is not compatible with western values.

[Levelfive]

So is it bigotry to say that I value my parents more than a random stranger? If so then I'm a bigot. If my mom is starving and needs money to live I will give it to her, as much as she wants. I won't do that for someone in Europe.

The black fathers not living with kids is true. The study you linked showed the number of fathers who didn't live with their children is 41%, which is absolutely compatible with more than half of black children not living with their father, because I would guess that fathers who aren't at home have more kids - see George Floyd, 5 kids. Even if the number is 40%, that's still substantially higher than a functioning society should have.

Actually I just looked at the article you linked more closely, and here are some quotes from the article he referenced:

"Most black fathers live with their children. There are about 2.5 million who live with their children, and 1.7 million who don’t, according to the CDC."
"And when I examined Census reports about black children, I found that slightly more than half don’t have the same legal residence as their fathers."
"And some men of any race become what I call “serial impregnators,” having lots of children without raising them — more children than the good dads do. This helps explain the very different statistic."

"Fatherlessness is still a bigger problem statistically in the black community than it is among other racial groups."

Is it "racist horse shit", as you call it, if it's true?

My stance against it is the protests are largely focused on the police, who I think are this year's convenient scapegoat.

Did you read this part:

"Furthermore, whether living in the same home or not, black fathers are the most involved of all primary recorded race and ethnic groups.

Many fatherlessness statistics utilize marital and housing statuses as cornerstone metrics, resulting in highly inflated figures. These stats do not account for the fact that men have died or passed away, couples may live together while unmarried, couples may be divorced, and, let’s not forget, that, due to the system of incarceration, men are not only separated from their families but often even prevented from staying in the homes with their families if the housing is federally provided. The New York Times’ 2015 analysis, “1.5 Million Missing Black Men,” gave credence to this shocking reality, presenting loud and clear how our country’s mass incarceration industrial complex has claimed more men than were enslaved in 1850. Statistics about white males with a nearly 40% divorce rate, and significant numbers choosing to have and/or adopt children independently, are entirely immune to the views levied upon African Americans."

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And that's what I'm fighting against. The stupidity in these hopeless movements that:

1. Find a convenient scapegoat that means they don't have to do anything themselves.
2. Include people who are utterly unable to recognize their humanity and pretend that they are these specimens of "woke" perfection who need to fix everyone else.

It's really easy to blame someone else for the problems we see. It's much harder to make sacrifices yourself. I did it. I work in a school district that has a lot of poor kids, and I could absolutely get a job in a better one, but it's a community I care more about (and honestly, it's a decision that I have a harder time making every year as our district gets poorer). It's also easy to pretend that you're perfect and make moronic statements like, "I care about everyone equally and if you don't you're a bigot." Ask anyone who they would rather see die... a loved one or a stranger. Obviously, the stranger. You need to admit that there are people whose lives you value you more than others, and that every single person does that. Otherwise you're just lying to yourself about who you are while you try to hold others to impossible standards.

And if you want to fix the problems you see, don't scapegoat the police, find the 10 worst things that the police have done in the past 5 years (in a nation of 300 million) and pretend that they are the systemic issue that needs fixing. Start with your own community. Vote for zoning changes. Vote for sane school policies. It's obvious.

your fighting to ignore actual systematic issues and to Pretend that community's are vacuums that aren't influenced at all by outside forces working to distrust and keep them worse off.