The greatest failures of the horde.

[Soon-TM]

Hordes greatest failure is not having a system to over rule a warchief when they go Dictator mode.

If only there was an institutional way of challenging the dictator du jour to single combat, so that you can kill them or otherwise remove them from the Horde...

[TigTone]

If only there was an institutional way of challenging the dictator du jour to single combat, so that you can kill them or otherwise remove them from the Horde...

Because it has worked out great and used before things became horrible for the horde.

It’s basically useless when no steps up.

[Soon-TM]

Because it has worked out great and used before things became horrible for the horde.

It’s basically useless when no steps up.

It removed Sylvanas from power and played a key role in undermining Garrosh's reign. I'd say it was quite useful.

[TigTone]

It removed Sylvanas from power and played a key role in undermining Garrosh's reign. I'd say it was quite useful.

Hardly, there was untold amount of deaths in both cases.

Not to mention Shadowlands is still happing because no on stopped Sylvanas once she started the war or before it started.

[Soon-TM]

Not to mention Shadowlands is still happing because no on stopped Sylvanas once she started the war or before it started.

You can chalk that up to Saurfang's fervent desire of getting the boiking's approval before daring do anything, not to mak'gora as an institution. As a matter of fact, nothing prevented Saurfang from calling mak'gora right after the burning of Teldrassil. It's just that he chose not to.

It's like saying that democracy is a bad system because some morons do get elected from time to time, and utterly !@#$ their countries.

[zhimm1011]

Its Existence

[TheFirstOnes]

The biggest shame in BFA? Still trusting Sylvanas + Not smacking Baine around.

Honestly, the fuck were they thinking?

[Villager720]

Question:
If Baine had attacked Sylvanas and lost but survived - would people still hate him?

A lot of hate for Baine used to come from him never taking a stand - but then, when he did take a stand, he got labeled a traitor.

So what would it take for people to approve of him? He couldn’t beat Uber-Sylvanas in combat but if he had tried, would that have worked to curry favor?

The way I see it, Baine managed to get Jaina off the warpath which definitely played a large role in removing Sylvanas.

[Soon-TM]

If Baine had attacked Sylvanas and lost but survived - would people still hate him? No, because he would have acted as someone who was truly horrified by Sylvie's actions, and could be seen as someone who fought for what he considered to be fair, and lost. At least for the time being.

A lot of hate for Baine used to come from him never taking a stand - but then, when he did take a stand, he got labeled a traitor. The problem with Baine is NOT that he doesn't take a stand - it's that the stands he takes are consistently pro-Alliance, even to the detriment of his own people.

The way I see it, Baine managed to get Jaina off the warpath which definitely played a large role in removing Sylvanas. Oh yeah, teh power of friendship Nevermind the disgusting idea of embracing a !@#$ing rotten corpse, even if it was her brother's. Just for one time, Jaina could have dispensed with her permanent (as of BfA) Mary Sue mode, and sunk Baine and the two corpses he was carrying to the sea bottom.

There you go.

[Gann Stonespire]

@Raisei

Baine abuses the powers given to him to break the Horde's blood oaths by exiling the tauren preventing the Alliance from breaking the Gates of Mulgore. Thats textbook treachery.

He should've been removed from power at that point.

@Villager720

Baine taking a stand to benefit the Alliance and screw over the Horde is nothing new, he's been hated for that for years and never stopped doing it.

[Raisei]

@Raisei

Baine abuses the powers given to him to break the Horde's blood oaths by exiling the tauren preventing the Alliance from breaking the Gates of Mulgore. Thats textbook treachery.

He should've been removed from power at that point.

And Sylvanas abused the power of her position as Warchief by trying to murder the world (including the Horde), yet none of you calls her a traitor. That's textbook double standards.

[Grazrug]

Question:
If Baine had attacked Sylvanas and lost but survived - would people still hate him?

A lot of hate for Baine used to come from him never taking a stand - but then, when he did take a stand, he got labeled a traitor.

So what would it take for people to approve of him? He couldn’t beat Uber-Sylvanas in combat but if he had tried, would that have worked to curry favor?

The way I see it, Baine managed to get Jaina off the warpath which definitely played a large role in removing Sylvanas.

Baine only role is getting alliance approval and friendship from time to time. He never did anything for the sake of the horde. Saurfang was different. His sacrifice saved the horde which is why players like him. And all of that without going full friendship into alliance arms.essentially he is an alliance character in reality and horde just on paper.

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@Raisei

Baine abuses the powers given to him to break the Horde's blood oaths by exiling the tauren preventing the Alliance from breaking the Gates of Mulgore. Thats textbook treachery.

He should've been removed from power at that point.

@Villager720

Baine taking a stand to benefit the Alliance and screw over the Horde is nothing new, he's been hated for that for years and never stopped doing it.

This. Big times.

[Gann Stonespire]

And Sylvanas abused the power of her position as Warchief by trying to murder the world (including the Horde), yet none of you calls her a traitor. That's textbook double standards.

I don't like Sylvanas either, but she already got called out for it and left the Horde.

That hasn't happened to Baine, hence my issue.

[Raisei]

I don't like Sylvanas either, but she already got called out for it and left the Horde.

That hasn't happened to Baine, hence my issue.

*shrug* Might have something to do with him being one of the two people on the Horde leadership that spoke up against Sylvanas and prevented her from murdering the world, while the rest just kept following her like blind sheep.

Baine betrayed Sylvanas to safe the Horde, I see no issue with this and no reason why he should be kicked out for it. If going against a psychopathic warchief is reason for expulsion then every last one of the Horde leadership and every character that kicked Garrosh's arse in Siege of Orgrimmar has to consider themselves no longer part of the Horde.

No, I think people just want to hate Baine so they find excuses for it.

[Gann Stonespire]

*shrug* Might have something to do with him being one of the two people on the Horde leadership that spoke up against Sylvanas and prevented her from murdering the world, while the rest just kept following her like blind sheep.

Except he only did that over a member of the Alliance.

Baine betrayed Sylvanas to safe the Horde, I see no issue with this and no reason why he should be kicked out for it. If going against a psychopathic warchief is reason for expulsion then every last one of the Horde leadership and every character that kicked Garrosh's arse in Siege of Orgrimmar has to consider themselves no longer part of the Horde.

No. He literally watched and did nothing when she blighted Tauren.

No, I think people just want to hate Baine so they find excuses for it.

Its more like Alliance fanboys will make any excuse to prop up Baine to oppose Horde players.

[Soon-TM]

Its more like Alliance fanboys will make any excuse to prop up Baine to oppose Horde players.

And not any Alliance fanboi, just Anduin groupies as far as I can recall.

[Raisei]

Its more like Alliance fanboys will make any excuse to prop up Baine to oppose Horde players.

And not any Alliance fanboi, just Anduin groupies as far as I can recall.

It's not really that I like Baine and defend him because of that.

I just like to reveal the hilarious hypocrasy that is going on in the Horde player base, when Sylvanas, a rotten psychopathic zombie that murdered thousands of innocents and tried to have your PC killed is DEFENDED from any attack, while Baine who actively prevented Horde deaths is reviled.

Say what you want, Baine is the better person and that the Horde still exists now and has not been fed to the hungering Darkness is in large parts because he took action against Sylvanas. That is simply a fact. You can cry about "he only did for Jaina's Brother lol" forever, it does not matter. He acted when all except Saurfang were still following orders of genocide like sheep.

You were safed by this cow and now you owe your lifes to him. Pure and simple.

[Super Dickmann]

It's not really that I like Baine and defend him because of that.

I just like to reveal the hilarious hypocrasy that is going on in the Horde player base, when Sylvanas, a rotten psychopathic zombie that murdered thousands of innocents and tried to have your PC killed is DEFENDED from any attack, while Baine who actively prevented Horde deaths is reviled.

Say what you want, Baine is the better person and that the Horde still exists now and has not been fed to the hungering Darkness is in large parts because he took action against Sylvanas. That is simply a fact. You can cry about "he only did for Jaina's Brother lol" forever, it does not matter. He acted when all except Saurfang were still following orders of genocide like sheep.

You were safed by this cow and now you owe your lifes to him. Pure and simple.

Nah, Baine was entirely irrelevant even in that context and you can even make a case he was counterproductive - Jaina already considered winning the war to be morally abhorrent well before the Derek episode at the end of Battle for Dazar'alor and Baine's killing spree didnt' endear him to the Horde population, hence why we see even tauren participating in his arrest and a patch later standard troops are ready to fight Saurfang and Thrall to the death to ensure his execution. May God have mercy on their souls for trying.

He's entirely absent from the final push againts Sylvanas, which would at the most optimistic be a crapshoot if not for Saurfang invoking single combat due to the unpopularity of his movement, which until his return was represented by Baine. The second he has any kind of power he is the first to oppose the vulpera getting in, despite ostensibly being a liason in Zandalar and knowing what they're able to do, whereupon these midget furries from another continent proceed to solve all the problems he as the pseudo-Warchief had entirely cocked up. Sylvanas purposefully intended to fail and she still had a better outreach program than Baine.

The only time Baine contributed to society's productiveness was when he was browbeat into being Garrosh's lawyer and that time he saved Garrosh from quillboar. Past that, he's never done anything positive for the Horde. And even the first one can be discounted since the trial was rigged anyway.

By your own welcome admission, Baine's sole support comes from contrarians, be they Alliance or noblesavage, who only prop up Baine when he's contrasted with Sylvanas. The second the boogeyman is out of the poll and Baine stands on his own, he has collapsed in every poll and no one has a good word to say about him despite Blizzard's desperate attempts to prop him up patch after patch, expansion after expansion. Alas, I'll still be forced to bust his useless ass from the Maw when Sylvanas redeems herself by sending most of the cast there in the pre-patch. Tragic, really.

[Raisei]

Nah, Baine was entirely irrelevant even in that context and you can even make a case he was counterproductive - Jaina already considered winning the war to be morally abhorrent well before the Derek episode at the end of Battle for Dazar'alor and Baine's killing spree didnt' endear him to the Horde population, hence why we see even tauren participating in his arrest and a patch later standard troops are ready to fight Saurfang and Thrall to the death to ensure his execution. May God have mercy on their souls for trying.

No one expects grunts to go against the Blood Oath. They are not grunts because they are smart thinkers and Individualists after all, so I would not put too much stock into which race is bringing him away or guarding him. It just illustrates the sheep mentality or if we are generous, that they feared Sylvanas a lot more then Baine (which is entirely reasonable after she just executed someone without so much as an explanation).

He's entirely absent from the final push againts Sylvanas, which would at the most optimistic be a crapshoot if not for Saurfang invoking single combat due to the unpopularity of his movement, which until his return was represented by Baine. The second he has any kind of power he is the first to oppose the vulpera getting in, despite ostensibly being a liason in Zandalar and knowing what they're able to do, whereupon these midget furries from another continent proceed to solve all the problems he as the pseudo-Warchief had entirely cocked up. Sylvanas purposefully intended to fail and she still had a better outreach program than Baine.

The only time Baine contributed to society's productiveness was when he was browbeat into being Garrosh's lawyer and that time he saved Garrosh from quillboar. Past that, he's never done anything positive for the Horde. And even the first one can be discounted since the trial was rigged anyway.

By your own welcome admission, Baine's sole support comes from contrarians, be they Alliance or noblesavage, who only prop up Baine when he's contrasted with Sylvanas. The second the boogeyman is out of the poll and Baine stands on his own, he has collapsed in every poll and no one has a good word to say about him despite Blizzard's desperate attempts to prop him up patch after patch, expansion after expansion. Alas, I'll still be forced to bust his useless ass from the Maw when Sylvanas redeems herself by sending most of the cast there in the pre-patch. Tragic, really.

I assume he is not at the SoO 2.0 because that would have meant another CGI model made when it wasn't necessary (unless the Tauren in the first Trailer is Baine, but I don't think so), Jaina is also not in the CGI even though she is clearly there.

I do however agree that in raw facts Baine has not done much. He nudged one stone to make one of Sylvanas smaller plans topple, which is more then the other leaders did, but still not much of substance. But the meaning of this is what is important and what I base my argument on.
Baine is apparently liked by his fellow Hordes (that much we can surmise from Lor'themar's dialogue) even if the playerbase hates him. When he took action and suffered the consequences for them it rattled the others and woke them from their sheepish stupor, something that Saurfangs leaving could apparently not do.

Now you are right however that the ending made no sense with that idea behind it. It's ridiculous to assume that the entire Alliance and 70% of the Horde leadership could not take Orgrimmar held by the remaining 30%, but that is exactly what we are told is happening. This basically devalues every character on the rebel side and their contributions, but it does not remove those contributions entirely.

[matrix123mko]

It's still better then being apathetic and irrelevant to the plot in total. Because that's where horde story goes when Baine is in charge. The horde doesen't matter. The big bad guy plot is always dominated by the alliance

What I can't understand is why can't the Horde do a civil war during peace time.

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The greatest mistake was to let Malfurion leave. Without him, night elves would truly lose hope.

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Letting thrall lead. He pussified the horde beyond redemption.

Some of us still prefer that wc2, sylvanas, or garrosh horde but blizzard decides for us

I like WC2 and Sylvanas Horde. Garrosh had that foolish honor philosophy that didn't let him use his full military potential.