Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

[Talrath]

Tbh, even though I like night elfs, they have nothing to do with suramar. You might say, oh but nature is a form of magic and so on, BUT, the night elves don't see it that way. They see it as a nature thing that has nothing to do with arcane magic. That is why suramar wouldn't be something that would fit to the night elves. And let me say it again, the people who still want suramar for x reason is because YOU have more information about the lore than the actual characters. So wherr would be more probable for them to live now? Mount hiyal obviously, it's very good defended, their sacred land, it's familiar territory for the old leading elves.

Of course I actually want them to take eldre talas, But they would have to fight every single inhabitant there and have to start cleansing. You can't do these if the horde is also close by. They don't have any reinforcement, the draneai? Pfah, you cant find them anywhere, where are they with crystal turrets? So we Know more than the characters, ALOT more.

[ravenmoon]

But this isn't a sensible option if your then going to say "Night Elves can be at war with the Horde over Ashenvale and Darkshore."

You can't have the Night Elves in a Horde City, with a Horde race, whilst they are fighting the Horde in another part of the world. That doesn't make any sense. I would want the Night Elves removed immediately, because they are clearly a hassle for the Horde and it's about the Horde's best interest.

Night Elves can't have everything. That's not fair. Either you go for Eldre'Thalas and restore that and build portal networks between it and Darkshore or you go to either Val'sharah or Hyjal. You can't have them everything and invading other races' lands, just because you think they deserve those lands. I think Void Elves deserve Zin-Azshari, since their ancestors came from the city and Silvermoon was created with the Zin-Azshari structures in mind and with the rampart "Void" themes, that encompassed the city for 10,000 years - it makes sense, to me.

When people make propositions like say Night elves share with the Nightborne and then wage war - they are hinting at a more complex and nuanced position. I ams saying that the horde/alliance race interactions should be more complex.

in this scenario of a friendly share, there are Nightborne who support and are building strong ties wit the the night elves, but they have allies who hate each other, these elves aren't going to let the fact their friends don't like each other stopping them from building a future for elf kind.

The situation in Darkshore and Ashenvale is night elf business with the orcs, on principle, the Nightborne stand with the night elves, but because of horde allies, do not directly help the night elves fight the orcs for Ashenvale. sort of like the High elf neutrality position in Dalaran.

This is where dynamics are different and a writing team intentional changes to accommodate or create a shift in dynamics, your write interactions with new nuances. the Nightborne are in Suramar broken isles, they're not going to aid the horde fight the night elves because they consider them kin and friends they will help the horde fight the humans if there aid is needed, but the Nightborne don't just rush into any battle the horde chooses to fight. There is no longer a warchief, and they aren't in the horde like races were in the past

The dynamic obviously has to change in this scenario.

It's like Pandaria, Huojin and Tushui don't go out of their way to attack each other, they actually sort of get along, they will help their allies on foreign lands when they clash, and fight each other in those circumstances, but they won't go out and join the one faction attacking the other faction's Pandaren. Not on principle, are there situations where they would? Yes, if the alliance pandaren were attacking the horde pandaren directly they would join the horde to stop them.


The situation of Nightborne/Night elf friendship is introducing more nuance to the Warcraft universe, and as such it would redefine new ways previously not explored in the narrative of how races interact with each other across the faction line and redefine what horde membership means. Prior to Shadowlands, it was "you're all in" , you cut off all ties with anyone in the opposite faction, and you do everything the warchief commands of you. That dynamic and relationship has changed - and when you think about it, it was actually very black and white and unrealistic, real life has nuances, and the great disparity and differences in races often means you would have different degrees of corporation, friendship and loyalties. It's not to say that the pre-shadowlands way was unrealistically totally, no, that could happen, but it was odd that it was the defacto and only way of interaction.

With Nightborne/Night elf friendship you have a situation where presumably neither night elf and Nightborne are that strongly tied to the horde or alliance, and they largely determining their own terms of interaction. These ancients are a very valuable and powerful tool and resource for the factions, and the young humans and orcs would rather minimal help than no help at all, so they put up with them doing their own thing, another option is that the elves don't really give them a choice in the matter because they are guided by their shared principles of defenders of the world and actually are working together to rein in the horde and alliance from going at each others throat.

now this is a legitimate gaol an d position the races can take and explains how they will operate within the factions. AS for their friendship - well there is so much motivation for that, never mind the night elves saving their kin 3 times in a row from total annihilation, there is shared past, the restoration process, the fact hey are so few, the common culture , language, understanding, what about a a new desire and resolve to ensure the night group of elf people have a future and don't die out? And/or the even nobler pursuit of choosing to e the ones to set the example of how it should be done to the younger races. these night people presided over Azeroths greatest era of undisturbed peace and prosperity and they achieved phenomenal things... their fall also taught them valuable lessons wit use of magic, control and exercise of power, balance of life which should allow them to go further than where they went before, regain the heights of civilization they had, which no other race native to Azeroth has achieved and show them the way. They also d see themselves as defenders, so choose to work together to ensure their horde and alliance allies aren't destroying themselves, no Garrosh/sylvanas or Arthas type leaders ever emerge, and if trouble happens the horde and alliance won't bicker at each others throats as the threat grows stronger but would more quickly be able to team up together.

There is a place of this sort of interaction in Warcraft. and even if most races on the horde and alliance hate the opposite side, there is space for at least one race that actively works with one from the other side, and Night elf/Nightborne are actually the best candidates.

Personally, i think it would be very popular and very welcome, I think many would appreciate at least one situation where one race doesn't have every other race in the opposite faction and vice versa and they actually do something about it, working together. Who better than ancients who's lives are very many times older than the hatreds that separate the horde and alliance. You need something like that in the factions if for another reason than something different, but it has a lot of value too, it stands both as a model and contrasts making quite clear how difficult and different hate is, it would also serve as an example of promoting a better standard ( if they don't make it trashy)

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Tbh, even though I like night elfs, they have nothing to do with suramar. .

you realise that statement is completely incorrect lore wise.

Whether they kaldorei and Shal'dorei become greatest friends or greatest enemies, that will never be true. Night elves have nothing to do with Silvermoon - you can not say that about Suramar. EVER !

You know what else is very night elven? The Nightborne ! They are a sub race of the night elven peoples, and represent a facet of the night elves. It is 100% night elf culture - not the druidic kind, but the Highborne based kind that dominated the pre-sundering era invasion period. (pre-sundering era has many periods). Everything you saw about them from 7.0 to 7.2 was night elven. They are to night elves what void elves are to blood elves. Magically altered versions of the race but based entirely on their lore and culture.

Btw if you never knew it, the night elf race has several periods and several cultures, it's not just a one nation group, it's 15,000 years old and is the Elven original race. You may not have realised this, but Nightborne are effectively night elves on the horde.

Remember, that other elf groups do magic, arcane or religious well, do beauty and buildings well because these things come from the night elves. And amongst the night elves you have a wider variety of elf types because they are the original. you have Highborne types, Moonguard arcane, Druid types, hunter/ranger types, Priest types, demon hunter types - the Thalassians, Nightborne have access ot all these because the night elves have them. So when people say the night elves can't do this because this is not them, it's nonsense, you will find the night elves would in theory have the best version or be able to generate the best version an likely the most advanced form of it.

so those who expect them not to have as much arcane talent would be wrong, those who expect heir arcane users not to be as good as other elf groups would also be wrong, those who think they can't live in big or beautiful cities or build the stuff they built 10k years ago, would be wrong (their elves who built such things still amongst them) . they are the original group and the largest most widespread and diverse. Just because the Darnassian faction ahs a lot of visual exposure on the druidic/hunter ranger side doesn't mean other sides like the arcane, demon hunting, the priesthood are non existent or weak.

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Ok - they can be there, only working for the Illidari.

The Blood Elves obviously have it better because of their fel magical studies and their elegant spellweaving of the craft, so their base would probably be better, but they are only there for the Illidari. They don't fight for the Night Elves or Blood Elves. They are situated only as ambassadors.

Oh and by the way - I LOVE how you constantly gloss over Varedis. The Blood Elf Demon Hunter who actually bested those night elf tutors. Just remember, he's a Blood Elf who managed to best the night elf tutors and Illidan was impressed with him and took note.

I'm not glossing over Varedis, I'm trying to convey what I mean, because you keep thinking something else other than what I intended, I know that once you see what I mean, Varedis example won't be that relevant. I never said there aren't senior blood elf DHs, some rose very quickly, i just said the night elf ones were senior (this meansin general), I even gave an example that not all night elf ones are senior figures. I assumed you wouldn't think so because you would know I was very much aware of this fact being very into the lore and should know not to take my statement that way. i often assume you do often as a message to others, not me directly (you do do this Tanaria, both on Eu forums and here) - my mum does it too, I've seen Mace do it, and I don't like it. Speak directly if you're referring to someone, don't use the conversation as a platform to remind people, if you are say it directly. I've probably done it too, but in my case it was unwittingly , because I am picking up bad habits from you lot.

So I'm going to stop talking to you.

[Tanaria]

You've got more options, than forcing the oppression of the Nightborne to share their city with the Night Elves. Just because you are desperate for Nightborne to have lore moments with the Night Elves doesn't mean we all want it.

Night Elves stay on Kalimdor.
Nightborne and HMT stay on the Broken Isles.

We've got those early hints with Tyrande leaving for Hyjal anyway.

Get over it now. Focus on your precious night elf mages in Eldre'Thalas and leave the Nightborne and Blood Elves to their friendships.
You've got no idea about how bad your story would be for the Nightborne and how Horde players would view them. I can take Alliance players throwing shade at them, but to then have Horde players also slating them because they not only house alliance night elves, but do nothing to help the wars in Ashenvale and Darkshore...no, it's crap and makes the Shal'dorei look really bad.

[ravenmoon]

You've got more options, than forcing the oppression of the Nightborne to share their city with the Night Elves. Just because you are desperate for Nightborne to have lore moments with the Night Elves doesn't mean we all want it.

Night Elves stay on Kalimdor.
Nightborne and HMT stay on the Broken Isles.

We've got those early hints with Tyrande leaving for Hyjal anyway.

Get over it now. Focus on your precious night elf mages in Eldre'Thalas and leave the Nightborne and Blood Elves to their friendships.
You've got no idea about how bad your story would be for the Nightborne and how Horde players would view them. I can take Alliance players throwing shade at them, but to then have Horde players also slating them because they not only house alliance night elves, but do nothing to help the wars in Ashenvale and Darkshore...no, it's crap and makes the Shal'dorei look really bad.

omg Tanaria..it's now "oppression of the Nightborne2 yo are twisting things like those fake news main media false reporters.

And yes I am aware you're not too keen on it. You've made it very clear, repeatedly , repeatedly and repeatedly.

Don't mistake my bringing it up, or explaining it when asked even if presenting it as an option to mean I'm somewhat hung up on it, you don't have to track every post made about elves to try and censor bad alliance people for wanting your precious Nightborne or Suramar every time they mention it. But the volume of times you see it mentioned should be an indication of how widespread the desire is, and if you're largely the only one saying it shouldn't' happen, it shows you most people don't care on your side.

[Tanaria]

omg Tanaria..it's now "oppression of the Nightborne2 yo are twisting things like those fake news main media false reporters.

And yes I am aware you're not too keen on it. You've made it very clear, repeatedly , repeatedly and repeatedly.

Don't mistake my bringing it up, or explaining it when asked even if presenting it as an option to mean I'm somewhat hung up on it, you don't have to track every post made about elves to try and censor bad alliance people for wanting your precious Nightborne or Suramar every time they mention it. But the volume of times you see it mentioned should be an indication of how widespread the desire is, and if you're largely the only one saying it shouldn't' happen, it shows you most people don't care on your side.

Except I'm not the only who's said it.

You and Mace are the only ones wanting to force the nightborne into either submitting to night elf demands of sharing or forcing them out of Suramar, when they shouldn't be.
Night Elves should be returning to Kalimdor. Restore Eldre'Thalas, rebuild Darkshore, live on Hyjal, emigrate to Winterspring - Blizzard could design Eldre'Thalas like how Acrona designed it, but for once just accept the fact that Suramar simply won't happen. Let Nightborne live their lives with the Blood Elves, with Silvermoon and with their Horde allies.
The Night Elves equally have Worgen as well as a few Void Elves and Humans who would quite happily live with them in their new city.

[Talrath]

Urgh, raven moon you don't understand it. Now think about this, for 10.000 years after the well of eternity, you've been living with the idea that arcane magic is bad and druidisme is good. New generation's will get the same idea, so, will they try to get Suramar? Even though they have been brainwashed that they should have a nature society for thousands of years. Of course not. Just look how we live, cultural differences make sure that people don't want to live at a total different country. And yes, I get it, we want Suramar because pre sundering it Was night elf culture. But those after the sundering who weren't in Suramar had a change of culture. THEY LITERALLY REJECTED THE ARCANE SIDE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Yes its nice to have Suramar in alliance, but like I said, cultural and that we know a lot more than the characters themselfs.

[ravenmoon]

Urgh, raven moon you don't understand it. Now think about this, for 10.000 years after the well of eternity, you've been living with the idea that arcane magic is bad and druidisme is good. New generation's will get the same idea, so, will they try to get Suramar? Even though they have been brainwashed that they should have a nature society for thousands of years. Of course not. Just look how we live, cultural differences make sure that people don't want to live at a total different country. And yes, I get it, we want Suramar because pre sundering it Was night elf culture. But those after the sundering who weren't in Suramar had a change of culture. THEY LITERALLY REJECTED THE ARCANE SIDE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. Yes its nice to have Suramar in alliance, but like I said, cultural and that we know a lot more than the characters themselfs.

I do understand, but the situation is more nuanced than you think - read Mace's response to MyWholeLifeIsThunder.

The night elves are not one situation one group thing, its several groups, new society, new era, past and present, - the pre-sundering life, knowledge, culture is not totally discarded . Much of it wasnt needed in the Long Vigil, but it now is and if you understand what the Long Vigil was and why it was done, what it means to end, come out isolation, needs of a society and civilization. You wouldnt think any of that stuff is beyond or unlikely for the night elves in places like cities or situations where arcane magic is involved.

E, what would change in what situations, what is most likely to return and be used etc,

[Piamonte]

I do understand, but the situation is more nuanced than you think - read Mace's response to MyWholeLifeIsThunder.

The night elves are not one situation one group thing, its several groups, new society, new era, past and present, - the pre-sundering life, knowledge, culture is not totally discarded . Much of it wasnt needed in the Long Vigil, but it now is and if you understand what the Long Vigil was and why it was done, what it means to end, come out isolation, needs of a society and civilization. You wouldnt think any of that stuff is beyond or unlikely for the night elves in places like cities or situations where arcane magic is involved.

E, what would change in what situations, what is most likely to return and be used etc,

If you want to write a fanfic, thats ok, but this is not the forum to do it.

[ravenmoon]

If you want to write a fanfic, thats ok, but this is not the forum to do it.

I bet you still think night elves hate arcane magic and ban it, and thoroughly believe the night elf mages are just purely gameplay issues right. It's still the loLong Vigil right cos it's the fantasy setting for them that you like the most - what it means, what WC3 meant, is totally irrelevant. You don't like change and anyone who presents a different argument is writing "fanfic". Gotcha.

Thank you, Next !

[Piamonte]

I bet you still think night elves hate arcane magic and ban it, and thoroughly believe the night elf mages are just purely gameplay issues right. It's still the loLong Vigil right cos it's the fantasy setting for them that you like the most - what it means, what WC3 meant, is totally irrelevant. You don't like change and anyone who presents a different argument is writing "fanfic". Gotcha.

Thank you, Next !

night elves mages are just a specific faction inside the night elf race, nothing more.

Everything you write is just your fanfic and not a possibility within the actual lore. If i dont like change just because i disagree wth you, then pretty much everyone here doesnt like change, because everyone here disagrees with you.

[Astranea]

She's a RP'er on Argent Dawn EU and quite well known in the community.

Thanks, again. Sounds like time to level up my RP alt on that server and humbly seek audience!

What I love about her work is that she's captured the idea of the Shen'dralar perfectly. [...] she creates ideas that are for Night Elves... [...] because the Shen'dralar can have an individual theme, seperate from the Shal'dorei or Sin'dorei or even the common Kaldorei.

I think you could not have expressed it any better. This is what we should strive for (as in, hope for/encourage Blizzard to give us). There is no need to take things from each other: the Night Elves totally DESERVE to have/maintain their own unique flavor.

Personally, I really loved Suramar, but find it rightfully belongs to the Nightborne alone. Even though it holds some similarities to the ruins in Nazjatar and Azsuna, it is still quite different - having been shaped by 10k years of isolation.

On the other hand, Eldre'thalas has been inhabited by the Shen'dralar up to just a few years ago, and it would be awesome if they could go back together with the Darnassians and reclaim it. I know many are assuming the Night Elves will make themselves a new home in Hiyal because of Nordrassil... and it does make sense... but then again, Blizzard may have the druids object to urbanizing the area of the second Well of Eternity. We shall see: they may surprise us after all.

Capital cities aside, IMHO the 'trouble' with the elves in World of Warcraft is related to their shared heritage. As in, it can make it hard for the fans to figure out which features belong to all of them, and which others have become much more prominent in one or another of their (sub-)races alone. Logically, when there is something cool it is likely that everyone wants it... while most obviously, the bad stuff seems to always belong to someone else's heritage...

Take Azshara for example. To which people does she belong? Back then and there, there was only one kind of elf and she was adored by ALL of the Kaldorei despite of reserving her own love for the Highborne alone (which obviously furthered hatred towards them among the jealous masses), while now she does not appear to truly belong to anyone's legacy... and yet an incredible amount of fans look at her ancient empire in absolute awe, just like the kaldorei ancestors of their characters.

• Night Elves: Hell broke lose thanks to the Highborne's abuse of magic, which is why magic was banned as a trade for 10k years. During that time, people who insisted to pursue the study of magic for power greed and frivolous reasons were rightfully exiled. Damned Highborne, and Azshara first of them all!
  
• Blood Elves: Azshara was a twisted Kaldorei - her Empire belongs to a past they can relate to in its splendor, but since magic is just a tool, her mistakes were her own. The jealous Night Elves are guilty of blaming all Highborne for the mistakes of one/few, and forcing them into exile, which is why they are no longer the same kin. Damned Azshara, and damned Night Elves!
  
• Nightborne: Azshara destroyed the world. They were isolated for 10k years, and magic saved and yet shaped them. Hardship made them their own kin, shaped by a need to protect themselves from the Legion's threat, despite of some of them being corrupted by the promise of endless power. Damned Azshara, damned greedy leaders, and damned Legion!
  
• And then finally, the Shen'dralar: They were Azshara's most revered arcanists, and keepers of her most precious tomes. Within the walls of Eldre'Thalas the Queen's most important demands were processed - often in secret. Prince Tortheldrin was her loyal follower, and once isolated, he and his loyalists murdered most of their fellow Highborne in order to save on the fading magical powers, which makes the few survivors his favorites... except now they have repented. Damned Azshara, and damned Prince Tortheldrin!

My point being, if there is someone aside from Azshara herself who could be blamed for what happened during her reign... due to being keepers of her tomes and secrets, those might actually be the Shen'dralar themselves. (Duh!) But thankfully Blizzard has rather made them repent and heal wandering the forests of Feralas. This is much more pleasing - just as it is much more pleasant to think of the splendor of Azshara's reign rather than of the Great Sundering caused by her actions.

(Truth be told, I find it impressive that the Shen'dralar were eventually allowed in Darnassus at all. Kudos to Tyrande and Malfurion for that!)

And seriously - I understand Blizzard's choice to align the Nightborne with the Blood Elves. After all, the Blood Elves never halted the study of magic whereas the Night Elves have only very recently allowed the Shen'dralar to return. It just feels more logical, considering how prominently magical the whole of Suramar has been for the past 10k years, and how the both of their people have had different 'issues' with Fel and/or fel users. And, the way Thalyssra and Lor'themar are getting along seems to point to a rather good match.

And yes, know, I have digressed from the main thread topic - apologies for that! If there's any other better topic to discuss these matters, of course, feel free to point/tag me there. Else, feel totally free to disregard an old draenei's ramblings, and I will just stop writing now before I make you all hate me too much.

[Tanaria]

You've summed this up perfectly.
I've been saying that the resources for them to build a new city are already on Kalimdor - they have no reason to rob or have anything from the Nightborne.

Displacing the Nightborne, by attacking and hurting them is just asking for another faction war story and I can safety say, I think we've all seen enough of them for the next years to come.

We've got resources that are closer to the Night Elves on Kalimdor and Blizzard should take this opportunity to truly restore something that can be, current-Kaldorei levels of beautiful, where it's clear that "yes this is a night elf city." Not, "Oh, this was the nightborne's home, but it isn't now." Or "This looks like a high elf version of Quel'Thalas."

[Talrath]

I do understand, but the situation is more nuanced than you think - read Mace's response to MyWholeLifeIsThunder.

The night elves are not one situation one group thing, its several groups, new society, new era, past and present, - the pre-sundering life, knowledge, culture is not totally discarded . Much of it wasnt needed in the Long Vigil, but it now is and if you understand what the Long Vigil was and why it was done, what it means to end, come out isolation, needs of a society and civilization. You wouldnt think any of that stuff is beyond or unlikely for the night elves in places like cities or situations where arcane magic is involved.

E, what would change in what situations, what is most likely to return and be used etc,

I know what the long vigil was but there was still the stigma of not using arcane. Just see it like this, take a family from lets just say Afghanistan and bring them to Germany. The couple will hold on their ideals, then the child gets to be born in Germany and will most likely have less Afghani culture imbedded in him. Then that kid gets also a kid, and that kid will have no attachment for his Afghani culture. And thats JUST within a 60 year period. Now imagine shoved that druidisme nature in yout throat for a whole 10.000 years! That will make it so much imbedded in you that its going to take a long time to accept change, 16 years would be nothing. In cataclysme they changed a bit when they accepted the highbornes (official) but the vast majority of the elves were still against it. So in short, it just takes time, and in this case, ALOT OF TIME. So them getting suramar or be friends with them is atm IMPOSSIBLE.

[ravenmoon]

I know what the long vigil was but there was still the stigma of not using arcane. .

How much stigma? where is the proof, and how much do you need to prove that night elves will never do civilization or build beautiful buildings?

Exactly.

Building/having a city, having an architectural style from the last time you did civilization is not turning you into an arcane race nor is it losing you your druids or forest identity.

If night elves moved into Suramar, this does not turn the whole race into Nightborne society anymore than the Long Vigil turned all night elves into druids.

It doesn't matter if some night elves have a stigma against the past or a stigma against cities or a stigma against arcane, and you can flip that round to stigma against nature, forest or the present

The situation we have n ow is that night elf society needs a city, and it will do/have one in the way it's always done - it doesn't need to redefine what city is because the previous ones were in the pre-sundering, and it doesn't mean it's forest half is eroding. because of this.

It does mean the long vigil culture is not the existent anymore, but then it cannot be, all the things about them in the Long vigil would experience change after it ended. While some will still do forest life and culture, some will do and need cities. If you follow the lore and the logic, it's not a hard conclusion to make.

I'm not saying what you are saying is wrong, I'm just saying that you've got the situation you're analysing incorrect - it's not what I think you think it is. If you considered everything.

Just see it like this, take a family from lets just say Afghanistan and bring them to Germany. The couple will hold on their ideals, then the child gets to be born in Germany and will most likely have less Afghani culture imbedded in him. Then that kid gets also a kid, and that kid will have no attachment for his Afghani culture. And thats JUST within a 60 year period. Now imagine shoved that druidisme nature in yout throat for a whole 10.000 years! That will make it so much imbedded in you that its going to take a long time to accept change, 16 years would be nothing. In cataclysme they changed a bit when they accepted the highbornes (official) but the vast majority of the elves were still against it. So in short, it just takes time, and in this case, ALOT OF TIME. So them getting suramar or be friends with them is atm IMPOSSIBLE

I certainly don't think living in Suramar, having Suramar, or building Suramar is an IMPOSSIBLE, not even within the consistency of the lore, let alone creative intervention with new story and events. Even the night elves becoming full arcane society is possible though very very unlikely, and something I wouldn't want.

It's interesting I have to defend that what I want is feasible, when at the end of the day it is irrelevant. The jokes a bit on me, but the exercise in exploring this is fun, because it forces me to think a lot more about the hypothetical fantasy scenario and use its presentation alongside common sense to figure out what next.


Saying that, the situation with the night elves has to consider its particular story. An arcane affinity race, surrounded by arcane magic, but for 10k years have to put the use of it away and live a certain way. once the period ends, the developers SHOW you the race doing things it hasn't done in 10,000 years. All of them? No, but enough of them .. Many come out isolation, they form a nation again, they build a city, they start a civilization again, they start using arcane magic again.. all things from the pre-sundering era, even the city they build for the first time in 10k years is of teh style of before.. what is that telling you?

the race can change, just like it did civilization and arcane for 5,000 years, then the sundering happened and had to put it wway, changing lifestyle to suit the life mission they were carrying out. That mission ends, so do many things tied to it and things they haven't done for 10k years they do again.

They're not humans, this is not people with confused minds, deficient memories, that die in a few years, they have lived for millennia, we don't have an exact parallel, but the developers do show us what happens and it isn't beyond reason, it is expected. Night elves, once the long vigil situation has ended have no reason to satay away from their pre-sundering way of doing cities, culture or even arcane magic. They have reason not to do it abusively and excessively, and not to let it dominate all of their society at the cost of balance.

But not all of them do this, and the transition will take time. Elves have perfect memory, trust me, they don't forget how to live in cities..it then comes down to who will live there, who wants to live there, who has to live there. And this is based on position, responsibility level, profession or calling and function. Most druids have calling to nature, and will live there, if you're in government you'll be in the city, or in trade for a society that has started doing that again when it didn't need to during the isolation period.

It's unrealistic to think that night elves won't do civilization and do it in the night elven way of old just because they've been in the long vigil for 10k years - they're not going to adopt human culture.. and FYI both the druidic culture and the urban culture in the long vigil and pre-sundering are night elven, they lived like they did in the long vigil once before, in the earlier stages of their civilization, none of it is new, they're not going to re-write the books on how to do city and government etc, they did this to the highest level, they're gonna change some things, no Queen means a different style of governance, not getting arcane addicted will mean certain attitudes that prevailed towards the end of the pre-sundering era would not return, but that is by no means the entirety of what pre-sundering culture was - there are many things that would return that they had no use for during the long vigil, but those in cities will have use for an d will return.

And none of this affects those who continue the druid's calling in the forest and emerald dream.. that will continue as it did in the Long vigil, because that portion of their life is unchanged.

- - - Updated - - -

Capital cities aside, IMHO the 'trouble' with the elves in World of Warcraft is related to their shared heritage. As in, it can make it hard for the fans to figure out which features belong to all of them, and which others have become much more prominent in one or another of their (sub-)races alone. Logically, when there is something cool it is likely that everyone wants it... while most obviously, the bad stuff seems to always belong to someone else's heritage...

If I may add to this point...

It really doesn't have to be troublesome - whatever it is we should just accept, but we are allowed to desire different things for the groups we like or for each group

This problem won't really exist to this extent if the elves were in the same faction for sure. Everyone would appreciate the Highborne/Nightborne being kaldorei urban civilization - and if blizzard mix that up with the priesthood like it was in pre-sundering times but for the current timeline, then we'd all accept that. We'd have no problems with more druidic long vigil style culture existing with the WC3 group still in the forests like they were in the Long Vigil, even though some of them have migrated over tot he urban centres and civilization with the Highborne/Nightborne - whether they are separate governments or joined, it's a different lifestyle. We'd recognise it for what it is.


Because we have the different sub-races and across factions and a lot of mis-understanding of what the night elves are...e.g. many people feel the night elf can't do cities and culture - which is obviously not true, they so can, they can do city/cultureWE ARE LITERALLY like they did pre-sundering with or without the Nightborne and they can do forest life like was done in the Long vigil. They can do both, an din fact, should be doing both.

Many people think of the night elves as a niche forest group amongst blood elves the white group and Nightborne the dark elf group. But this is not what the picture is for night elves, their premise for the race is actually incorrect.. and this is why these disagreements pop up. They think they're right, and I'm wrong, everyone that sees night elves differently to that DnD paradigm is wrong. this is exactly why Mace writes this topic - The Warcraft night elf doesn't have that DnD fault line, even with the Nightborne in. This is what the essays are explaining in depth and taking the doubters through..

The night elves are not niche forest group, instead they are the original elf group that has all the aspects of the elves. They have arcane group, forest group, religious group, fel group etc. They are sort of like the Zandalari, original trolls that have all the aspects of the troll culture in them.

The Night Elves we play are not a changed race or species because of the Long vigil, they actually are the only ones that remain the same - the lifestyle of the main group changes to fit the circumstances of their Vigil, so when that ends, things change again. but the Night elf is the same and the race has all the groups and features still around today - whether arcane , cities, forests, nature, temples, divine - it was all there during the pre-sundering period, it was all there during the long vigil (arranged differently), it's all there today amongst the different groups



The sub-groups like Nightborne are just a capture of one of the aspects, not a replacement, they're like every other sub-race/allied race in the game, but people are reading this differently thinking the night elves are forest elves, and the Nightborne dark elves - it's not how it works. And the other elf off shoot the Thalassians, well they're their onw civilization , customs, way of life, they share all the arcane affinity, love of beauty, intelligence that the night elves have, although the only part of the night elves they carried on with was it's arcane legacy and forest hunter affinity, they swapped religions, colour palettes, day/night cycles - a lot was different but they're still elves and are a smaller, less diverse group than the original.


It is lack of understanding on this that is leading to these disagreements and arguments.

• You can see this when I come and spend most of my time trying to explain that night elves can do arcane magic and still do but I'm told by the doubters, no they left his 10k years ago , it's not part of them anymore - I am wrong and don't know what I'm talking about.
• I tell them, look again, you'll see it is, and is actually quite important for it to be. I sympathise rather than get angry with them for not believing or understanding because I can see Blizzard hasn't conveyed the night elf vision well in game. but then blizzard did cryptically call them enigmatic in classic, so maybe they wanted it to be less straightforward than most.
• Most who tell me these things about night elves don't factor in the books and the extra material, news of the Shen'dralar, the Highborne, the Moonguard etc is all news to them. they think the Shen'dralar are some tiny insignificant group that don't matter. But if you know the lore, the Shen'dralar were fully populated city of night elves for nearly 10,000 years, there population only started dropping 1,200 years ago falling to the current state..

Maybe it's because I have trained myself to look at all the information not just the surface (i.e. what I see in the game world - as I often explain you have to factor in text material - i know they look like forest elves because of the setting in WC3 and the classic levelling process, but it's much more than that. Didn't' help that blizzard took a long time to incorporate the Shen'dralar who showed up in 1.1 and then the other night elf groups like DHs, Moonguard, Wardens, and new group Nightborne not showing till Legion - very slow development for night elves - but I explain the race was neglected, it's not because blizzard was proving they are forest elves - the other groups should let you know there is more to them than that and their history is the biggest clue. But DnD mindsets dominate fantasy fan groups on these forums and they're not appreciating that blizzard has tried to do something different here.

So when some fans say that "night elves have abandoned the arcane and all things pre-sundering" - clearly they're not thinking of the night elves in Eldre'thalas whether they were 1 milllion or 1,000, nor those in Moonguard stronghold or those in Suramar.

Furthermore I find when they say these things, they don't even understand why the long Vigil happened, and what exactly was done it. they just think night elves hated arcane magic b/c it destroyed their civilization, and do this now because that's what they are. Yet the reason , context is the most important thing in understanding who and what the night elves are what they would doo, especially if you want to make assertions about them in the present and what they are capable of doing or not.

[Talrath]

Ravenmoon for the last time, I said at the moment it's impossible. I didn't say never, so it can happen, but not right now, it takes time. My guess? Seeing how elves can hold a grudge for a long time, I'd think several centuries.

Also try to be direct, every time there is a huge essay on my screen. If it happens once, np, but every single time gets tiring.

[ravenmoon]

Ravenmoon for the last time, I said at the moment it's impossible. I didn't say never, so it can happen, but not right now, it takes time. My guess? Seeing how elves can hold a grudge for a long time, I'd think several centuries.

Also try to be direct, every time there is a huge essay on my screen. If it happens once, np, but every single time gets tiring.

Ah you mean, given the current politic climate and recent choices?

I got a bit carried away. I write an essay and all I needed to say was "times change" . That long vigil group would change once that period ends and what it changes to depends on the writers. But for people with their lifespan, they'll do things they now need to do, which the long vigil prevented, it will be the things they use to do, as long as those thing are necessary, and good/ok and not evil, they'll do them.

They don't hold grudges against civilization, or buildings or arcane magic nor their own culture from 10,000 years ago. They would hold grudges against people (like their Highborne caste)We even witnessed them bury the hatchet with the Dire Maul Highborne, so it is shown many grudges are overcome, night elf kind are benevolent types..forgiveness, mercy and long suffering comes with the territory.


Useful Analogy
Forgive the length, I've tried to make it short, but the night elf situation is similar to a scenario where humans for a life time period (70 years is like their 10k years), electricity is magic, technology are all the conveniences magic allows us to have.

So think of it like if we have to ban electricity, much of the way we do things will change, but certain cultural traditions and customs aren't based on technology, like religion and many others, those will continue even though life will look very different. But once we return to cities after a 70 year period and can start using electricity, many of our city life operations and ways of doing things, habits will return. If we've become kinds, more humble and respectful of others in character, that would remain with us being our established character, so that aspect from our past wont return, especially destructive habits like excessive waste and power abuse which are character traits we totally changed from.

And Now Applied Back to WoW
So you see, they wont do things the way dwarves or humans do or reinvent things when their ways from 10k years are excellent and work well for city and culture. However somethings would be different because of situation changes, and they would avoid only the things from the last era they hated.. like addiction, reckless abuse of magic and inequalities that came from social rankings created by the Queen. That stuff would go but the last one would probably return in some form but likely without the degree of arrogance that was rife because a much loved leader played favourites. Things like that though are group based and how prevalent they are would be determined by which group dominates. If the Highborne dominate like in Azshara's reign rankings would be more important but not amongst the priest caste, if the priest caste dominates like it did in the Long vigil and currently does, then such things wont dominate but still remain amongst the Highborne.

It's interesting to predict the detail of what the culture in a city would be like, but there will be a blend. The Highborne caste would continue in pretty much the same way they have done, which you see via the Nightborne, but you would have the priest culture too, which continued after the sundering amongst the Long vigil group as the predominant ruling culture- the druidic lifestyle has it's own forest culture, but in a city and out of isolation much of that wouldn't exist there in the city.

There will also be many cultural things that the people have that never changed when they had to stop using the arcane as those aren't function based cultural norms.

There is a reason why they were kaldorei in the pre-sundering era and still kaldorei in the long vigil.

I wrote a culture piece in response #329 you might find it a good read.

[Tanaria]

They don't hold grudges against civilization, or buildings or arcane magic nor their own culture from 10,000 years ago. They would hold grudges against people (like their Highborne caste)We even witnessed them bury the hatchet with the Dire Maul Highborne, so it is shown many grudges are overcome, night elf kind are benevolent types..forgiveness, mercy and long suffering comes with the territory.

And where has all that mercy got them? City's destroyed, Ashenvale in danger more times than Liadrin's adoptive daughter has had hot dinners.
Where Tyrande says "the time for mercy is over" suggests a change in Kaldorei outlook.

Also, "Not until the Horde has answered for it's treachery." So, your still convinced that the Nightborne will let the night elves in, with this outlook? Not a cat-in-hell's-chance.

[ravenmoon]

And where has all that mercy got them? City's destroyed, Ashenvale in danger more times than Liadrin's adoptive daughter has had hot dinners.
Where Tyrande says "the time for mercy is over" suggests a change in Kaldorei outlook.

Also, "Not until the Horde has answered for it's treachery." So, your still convinced that the Nightborne will let the night elves in, with this outlook? Not a cat-in-hell's-chance.

Mercy isn't bad, and when it expires it isnt blind either randomly targeting everyone in blind rage. Night elves arent ANTIFA. It's not anarchy, death to order and down with the establishment.

It's now justice for the fallen specifically targeted against Sylvanas. They arent abandoning their morals or values, they are holding a reckoning against those specifically responsible for the war of thorns. Not every horde individual or race, those responsible for murdering every night elf during the War of Thorns

[Tanaria]

Mercy isn't bad, and when it expires it isnt blind either randomly targeting everyone in blind rage. Night elves arent ANTIFA. It's not anarchy, death to order and down with the establishment.

It's now justice for the fallen specifically targeted against Sylvanas. They arent abandoning their morals or values, they are holding a reckoning against those specifically responsible for the war of thorns. Not every horde individual or race, those responsible for murdering every night elf during the War of Thorns

She clearly wants the Horde to answer as well. Remember, as far as she knows, it was all the Horde. If it was just against Sylvanas, then she would have signed the truce.
She doesn't know what we know. What we know is that it is Sylvanas who called for the Burning of Teldrassil, where even Nathanos hesitated. Tyrande doesn't know this - like she says "Teldrassil burned because I chose to spare Saurfang's life." She believes the Horde planned this from the start.
This can only be told through the eyes of what she knows and the information she is presented with. This isn't about what Ravenmoon and Tanaria know as we know the full story. She doesn't know the full story.

And I'm not saying the Night Elves and indeed, the Worgen are like ANTIFA thugs. They have their reasons to attack the Horde and hate the Horde. That is all the Horde - including races such as Bloodhoof Tauren, Nightborne of Suramar, Blood Elves of Quel'Thalas, Dark Rangers like Velonara - they have their reasons

[Mace]

@ravenmoon, @Tanaria, @Astranea

The confusion here is partly because we are not dealing with 1 kind of night elf in this current era or group.

Most responders here think of the night elves as the WC3 group and think of the race purely based on the geography of WC3.. but that's not what we are dealing with here.

When you talk of night elves, you talk about a race that has several groups, and cultures.

Any new night elf city, even one for the Darnassian group is going to have several kinds of night elves.. two distinct cultures are the priesthood and the Highborne - the groups are not the same, they share many things but they're culturally quite different. They were even different in the pre-sundering era, regardless of what the technology was. The druids and forest culture is another.

when it comes to cities, we don't' really need to include the forest culture, what we see in Wc3, and in the cenarion circle areas is druid culture, you won't have that in a city, they don't do cities. So night elf nation or peoples that have a city would have to contain the other cultures we know of the night elves. That is the priest caste, the Highborne cate. Because these are the night elves.

The long vigil period wasn't a new night elf culture, it was the priest culture from their caste but in a forest setting without cities, temples and the conveniences arcane magic/technology bring, the forest culture, was the culture the night elves all knew/had when Cenarius approached them and taught them to care for nature before they mastered the arcane and created cities..

None of it's new. Blizzard has a set definition for night elf forest, urban culture, arcane Highborne groups, priest group, druid group.

So 10k years later, when the Long Vigil ends, the Highborne return, the night elves that build cities or live in them would have that culture and aspect predominant in the Pre-sundering era (it won't be a new one, and as Raven said, it would be a culture with some different attitudes - like the arrogance/recklessness common in the invasion period would be absent, it would be more like they were before they got addicted/reckless - rather than something unknown)

this is because blizzard has defined the parameters , nature, culture, and set pieces for the night elves. They have their own set, architectures, environments, magics, cultures - and they have several,, because they are a big race.


You need to understand these to make good calls and predictions concerning them.