Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

[Tanaria]

But here's the fact - the returned Highborne, the majority of which are Shen'dralar, are the most forest dwelling Highborne we've ever encountered. Eldre'Thalas was built in the dense forests of Feralas; after the Horde exiled them, they spent years wandering the forest-lands and knew the land well.

And to say that the Druidic culture isn't needed in their new city is an offense to them and it shows you don't actually care or like the Night Elves, but prefer their Highborne styles.

I can only hope you don't get what you want.

The thing is guys - you are both ignoring what is being told in-game and waffling on about your imaginary happenings. If you can't be bothered to take the time to see things in-game as of the end of BFA and go off the most recent lore, then I don't know what to tell you other than you will never be satisfied with what Blizzard do - even if they give the night elves a new city. In your minds, it won't be enough because your both so obsessed with Suramar - it's quite unhealthy.

[Hellspawn]

She clearly wants the Horde to answer as well. Remember, as far as she knows, it was all the Horde. If it was just against Sylvanas, then she would have signed the truce.
She doesn't know what we know. What we know is that it is Sylvanas who called for the Burning of Teldrassil, where even Nathanos hesitated. Tyrande doesn't know this - like she says "Teldrassil burned because I chose to spare Saurfang's life." She believes the Horde planned this from the start.
This can only be told through the eyes of what she knows and the information she is presented with. This isn't about what Ravenmoon and Tanaria know as we know the full story. She doesn't know the full story.

And I'm not saying the Night Elves and indeed, the Worgen are like ANTIFA thugs. They have their reasons to attack the Horde and hate the Horde. That is all the Horde - including races such as Bloodhoof Tauren, Nightborne of Suramar, Blood Elves of Quel'Thalas, Dark Rangers like Velonara - they have their reasons

Worgen were very much focused on Sylvanas and the Forsaken since they blighted their entire kingdom. With the burning of Teldrassil they burned down the people that gave the Worgen shelter, so they burned the Worgens second home.

Before that the horde just killed civilians of Astranaar, literally sending Assassin to do it. Later in the intro quest to the dark shore warfront we discover that they use captive night elfs for target practice. The entire campaign around the burning of Teldrassil and everything around build up reasons for the night elf to hate the Horde and Sylvanas.

Horde vs Alliance usually does not have nuances to it, thats nothing specific to Night Elfs, Tyrande, Genn or the Worgen.

[ravenmoon]

She clearly wants the Horde to answer as well. Remember, as far as she knows, it was all the Horde. If it was just against Sylvanas, then she would have signed the truce.
She doesn't know what we know. What we know is that it is Sylvanas who called for the Burning of Teldrassil, where even Nathanos hesitated. Tyrande doesn't know this - like she says "Teldrassil burned because I chose to spare Saurfang's life." She believes the Horde planned this from the start.
This can only be told through the eyes of what she knows and the information she is presented with. This isn't about what Ravenmoon and Tanaria know as we know the full story. She doesn't know the full story.

And I'm not saying the Night Elves and indeed, the Worgen are like ANTIFA thugs. They have their reasons to attack the Horde and hate the Horde. That is all the Horde - including races such as Bloodhoof Tauren, Nightborne of Suramar, Blood Elves of Quel'Thalas, Dark Rangers like Velonara - they have their reasons

But the context is the horde soldiers who attacked her people. In the final scene she says until Sulvanas is destroyed, not the horde, because Darkshore was her vengeance on the horde army that destroyed her homeland

[Hellspawn]

But the context is the horde soldiers who attacked her people. In the final scene she says until Sulvanas is destroyed, not the horde, because Darkshore was her vengeance on the horde army that destroyed her homeland

Anduin Wrynn says: The armistice is signed. At long last, the Fourth War is over.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: No. Not while the Black Moon still cries out for vengeance. Not until the Horde has answered for its treachery.

...

Shandris Feathermoon says: The Banshee Queen no longer leads the Horde. Those who do seem more inclined toward peace than war.
Tyrande Whispermoon says: If the wolf is rabid, it matters not who rides it. Sooner or later, the beast will bare its fangs.

...

Tyrande Whispermoon says: Know this. My hunger for vengeance will not be sated so long as Sylvanas Windrunner remains free--and until I know why Elune abandoned her children.

I would say its not just Sylvanas, but who knows. We need to wait how Shadowlands develops

[ravenmoon]

She still never signed the armistice with the Horde. That's crucial.

I would say its not just Sylvanas, but who knows. We need to wait how Shadowlands develops

Yes indeed we will have to. But all the indicators point to Sylvanas

The last statement says Sylvanas and not the horde, at this point Darkshore is cananonically won and the horde faction has paid, but the mastermind the truly guilty one who whipped this all up, Sylvanas, is still alive.

Tyrande goes into the Shadowlands, not a March against Quel'thals or Orgfimmaf or Mulgore, of Suramar or Dazar'alor - she goes after Sylvans.

She is done with the horde, this is the vengeance the devs say she got. Sylvanas left now.

[Tanaria]

She still never signed the armistice with the Horde. That's crucial.

Until that happens, if it happens at all - Tyrande will still attack the Horde, if she decides to do so. She hates the Horde and her comment about the wolf being rabid - that can be seen as a reflection towards Garrosh and Sylvanas. Sooner or later, the beast will bear it's fangs. It did so with Garrosh, then to Sylvanas, as they both led attacks on her people, killing many Sentinels, Huntresses and Druids.

This is all from her PoV. Stop being Ravenmoon for a second and be Tyrande Whisperwind. With the information she knows, she is still furious with the Horde as a whole - this includes peaceful kingdoms such as Highmountain, Quel'Thalas, Thunder Bluff, Suramar and Dazar'alor, plus more.

And yes, the Devs say she got her vengeance - but the same Devs also say, she's still very upset and angry with what happened. And again, she never signed the armistice. Don't be so quick to dismiss this.

[Hellspawn]

Yes indeed we will have to. But all the indicators point to Sylvanas

The last statement says Sylvanas and not the horde, at this point Darkshore is cananonically won and the horde faction has paid, but the mastermind the truly guilty one who whipped this all up, Sylvanas, is still alive.

Tyrande goes into the Shadowlands, not a March against Quel'thals or Orgfimmaf or Mulgore, of Suramar or Dazar'alor - she goes after Sylvans.

She is done with the horde, this is the vengeance the devs say she got. Sylvanas left now.

Not all indicators points at Sylvanas, that was exactly my point.

Other then that, I think Tyrande would focus mostly on the Kalimdor Branch of the Horde if she continues to be a war hawk.

[ravenmoon]

Not all indicators points at Sylvanas, that was exactly my point.

Other then that, I think Tyrande would focus mostly on the Kalimdor Branch of the Horde if she continues to be a war hawk.

You dont think her vengeance would be sated by taking out Sylvanas now she has killed the soldiers responsible for Teldrassil and the WoT?

[Hellspawn]

You dont think her vengeance would be sated by taking out Sylvanas now she has killed the soldiers responsible for Teldrassil and the WoT?

I think the revenge story could end in SL but her distrusting the Horde will probably stay.

[ravenmoon]

I think the revenge story could end in SL but her distrusting the Horde will probably stay.

In that scenario, what would satisfy Tyrande realistically? What could diffuse her

[Tanaria]

In that scenario, what would satisfy Tyrande realistically? What could diffuse her

The Horde being history.

At the end of the day, they already served one hellish Warchief in Garrosh and now, they elected Sylvanas and just like Theramore - an Alliance City on Kalimdor was destroyed - her city was destroyed.
And not only that, Garrosh and Sylvanas have launched invasions into her lands.

She has seen this twice over. Garrosh was defeated and Sylvanas betrayed the Horde, but prior to these events, the Horde were happy to invade night elf lands.

Tyrande is angry. She has every right to be. It will probably take a Kalimdor & Eastern Kingdoms revamp to see what changes have been made and to see what the status of the night elf lands are. If the Horde has moved operations to Azshara, then her mood might lighten, but if the Horde is still in Ashenvale and the Shatterspear Tribe still attack the Night Elves in service to the Horde - then no, she will NEVER forgive the Horde.
Elven grudges last a long time. Look at how much hatred the Naga - mutated Highborne night elves, reacted and attacked innocent night elf towns, villages and settlements during W3. Naisha makes the point of how horrible the attacks were by the creatures, before they were revealed.

[ravenmoon]

Elven grudges last a long time. Look at how much hatred the Naga - mutated Highborne night elves, reacted and attacked innocent night elf towns, villages and settlements during W3. Naisha makes the point of how horrible the attacks were by the creatures, before they were revealed.

That might be more relevant to blood elves who've gone all psycho since Arthas - but night elves are sturdier, more benevolent types, this isnt their first genocide and they always do right in the end.

Their benevolent nature tells me they would let go of grudges if reconciliation is sought, they reconcile with the Shen'dralar, and we see Tyrande gave Darth'remar group a chance, as well as demon hunters and others, , so far the horde hasn't offered apologies, reconciliation or reparations, - but then the horde is more like the Legion rather than the Highborne they forgive who face it, also fought the evil of the Legion, so maybe you are right.

I still think her anger is targeted at the soldiers who murdered and massacred the night elves and the institution of the horde at that time (the horde has changed since then) rather than every individual horde aligned person or race

[Tanaria]

That might be more relevant to blood elves who've gone all psycho since Arthas - but night elves are sturdier, more benevolent types, this isnt their first genocide and they always do right in the end.

Their benevolent nature tells me they would let go of grudges if reconciliation is sought, they reconcile with the Shen'dralar, and we see Tyrande gave Darth'remar group a chance, as well as demon hunters and others, , so far the horde hasn't offered apologies, reconciliation or reparations, - but then the horde is more like the Legion rather than the Highborne they forgive who face it, also fought the evil of the Legion, so maybe you are right.

I still think her anger is targeted at the soldiers who murdered and massacred the night elves and the institution of the horde at that time (the horde has changed since then) rather than every individual horde aligned person or race

And Blood Elves do right in the end.
They managed to fight for survival whilst dealing with 3 hostile presences.

The Night Elves, the Scourge and the Amani and they still managed to hold their own, along with the few Forsaken.

The Naga are far worse than the Blood Elves ever could be and let the record show; it was the Blood Elven leader and the Farstriders who took to battle with the Naga and their Queen.
To say they've gone psycho is just spitting in their faces after all the things they've done to help Azeroth.

If it wasn't for their efforts, Quel'Delar would never have been restored. The Amani would have had a second chance of invading the High Home and they are the ones who also stood firm against the Thunder King, despite the Purge of Dalaran.

If anything, it's the High Elves, Naga and Satyr who are the true pyschos. Possibly then followed by Night Elves.

Silvermoon Blood Elves are probably the sanest of all the Elven groups.

[ravenmoon]

And Blood Elves do right in the end.
They managed to fight for survival whilst dealing with 3 hostile presences.
.

Survival at any cost is not doing 'right' at the end, especially when your motto is 'death to all who oppose us'

- - - Updated - - -

But yes, the Naga are a lot worse than the blood elves. The worse parts of the kaldorei continued in them

[Tanaria]

Survival at any cost is not doing 'right' at the end, especially when your motto is 'death to all who oppose us'

- - - Updated - - -

But yes, the Naga are a lot worse than the blood elves. The worse parts of the kaldorei continued in them

Words and actions can mean very different things.

Look at the standard high elf sayings and remember that it was a High Elf Magister who was dangling a Blood Elven Scout over the shark in Dalaran.

And lets not forget the Sentinels who invaded Quel'Thalas, when the Blood Elves were trying to recover. Not only did they pose a threat by potentially causing the Sanctums to malfunction, but they readily attacked the Blood Elves. So on top of Dark'han and the Amani, what are the Blood Elves supposed to do? Sit back and let the night elves cause all this trouble, whilst they are only just trying to get back on their feet?
Because obviously, invading a land and being hostile to the natives must be okay when the night elves do it, right? Please..

[ravenmoon]

Words and actions can mean very different things.

Look at the standard high elf sayings and remember that it was a High Elf Magister who was dangling a Blood Elven Scout over the shark in Dalaran.

And lets not forget the Sentinels who invaded Quel'Thalas, when the Blood Elves were trying to recover. Not only did they pose a threat by potentially causing the Sanctums to malfunction, but they readily attacked the Blood Elves. So on top of Dark'han and the Amani, what are the Blood Elves supposed to do? Sit back and let the night elves cause all this trouble, whilst they are only just trying to get back on their feet?
Because obviously, invading a land and being hostile to the natives must be okay when the night elves do it, right? Please..

Those sentinels were protecting the spying party, not invading. The blood elves arent the good guys for slaughtering them

[Tanaria]

Those sentinels were protecting the spying party, not invading. The blood elves arent the good guys for slaughtering them

In the Blood Elf lands?! Attacking them for no good reason, when they were trying to get back on their feet? They should never have been there. And your defending a hostile party, out to harm the Blood Elves...that says a lot about you.

Night Elves truly are psychotic. They are more than willing to indirectly help the Scourge and Amani to kick the Sin'dorei when they're down, but they can't take it when it's done back on them.

[ravenmoon]

In the Blood Elf lands?! Attacking them for no good reason, when they were trying to get back on their feet? They should never have been there. And your defending a hostile party, out to harm the Blood Elves...that says a lot about you.

Night Elves truly are psychotic. They are more than willing to indirectly help the Scourge and Amani to kick the Sin'dorei when they're down, but they can't take it when it's done back on them.

Yes, they weren't invading, you can call spying invading if you want, but this is not an invasion force trying to take over Quel'thalas, from a race who's power base is across a huge ocean, don't be silly. Nor is it a scouting trip to prep for an invasion force when the people in question are still "tentative" allies. Use your head and snap out of your bias. The blood elf view is not the only one. You're not a blood elf, you're a human being, you live in the real world, and you have access to a birds eye view, including both sides and developer info. Use it to understand.

[Tanaria]

Yes, they weren't invading, you can call spying invading if you want, but this is not an invasion force trying to take over Quel'thalas, from a race who's power base is across a huge ocean, don't be silly. Nor is it a scouting trip to prep for an invasion force when the people in question are still "tentative" allies. Use your head and snap out of your bias. The blood elf view is not the only one. You're not a blood elf, you're a human being, you live in the real world, and you have access to a birds eye view, including both sides and developer info. Use it to understand.

Actually, no we don't.

We have the blood elf view and that's it, because that's all that's playable.
The night elves are wrong and so are you.

They shouldn't be there. They don't know how hard the Blood Elven forces of Silvermoon have had to keep working to keep Dark'han's forces at bay, plus with the threat of the Amani and now with Night Elven invaders. They are invaders - holding bases that surround Tranquillien on all sides is something that is an invasion.

And guess what - your not a night elf mage IRL...so get over yourself and your nasty bias against the Sin'dorei.

[Beloren]

@ravenmoon, @Tanaria, @Astranea

The confusion here is partly because we are not dealing with 1 kind of night elf in this current era or group.

Most responders here think of the night elves as the WC3 group and think of the race purely based on the geography of WC3.. but that's not what we are dealing with here.

When you talk of night elves, you talk about a race that has several groups, and cultures.

Any new night elf city, even one for the Darnassian group is going to have several kinds of night elves.. two distinct cultures are the priesthood and the Highborne - the groups are not the same, they share many things but they're culturally quite different. They were even different in the pre-sundering era, regardless of what the technology was. The druids and forest culture is another.

when it comes to cities, we don't' really need to include the forest culture, what we see in Wc3, and in the cenarion circle areas is druid culture, you won't have that in a city, they don't do cities. So night elf nation or peoples that have a city would have to contain the other cultures we know of the night elves. That is the priest caste, the Highborne cate. Because these are the night elves.

The long vigil period wasn't a new night elf culture, it was the priest culture from their caste but in a forest setting without cities, temples and the conveniences arcane magic/technology bring, the forest culture, was the culture the night elves all knew/had when Cenarius approached them and taught them to care for nature before they mastered the arcane and created cities..

None of it's new. Blizzard has a set definition for night elf forest, urban culture, arcane Highborne groups, priest group, druid group.

So 10k years later, when the Long Vigil ends, the Highborne return, the night elves that build cities or live in them would have that culture and aspect predominant in the Pre-sundering era (it won't be a new one, and as Raven said, it would be a culture with some different attitudes - like the arrogance/recklessness common in the invasion period would be absent, it would be more like they were before they got addicted/reckless - rather than something unknown)

this is because blizzard has defined the parameters , nature, culture, and set pieces for the night elves. They have their own set, architectures, environments, magics, cultures - and they have several,, because they are a big race.


You need to understand these to make good calls and predictions concerning them.

While I will admit blizzard can equally give the night elves of the alliance the broken isles.. (if they wanted to)

and that many fans will appreciate it going night elf, I think if fans had to choose, more would choose Kalimdor, because unfortunately for you, more play WC3 and level 1-20 than they have read long ass books on night elves. Most aren't connected to the history you hardcore fans are, so they don't care as much for Broken Isles where only Legion events happened (as far as they are aware). Also once the Nightborne went horde, the horde fans aren't giving that up, and you may not have noticed, but most alliance fans also stopped getting angry over it or wanting it. But I'm sure you don't care - afterall, you are thinking "if the horde can invade night elf lands in Kalimdor so many times and claim large chunks, the alliance can just as easily for a change take some horde lands" - you may even think that the horde will gladly accept such a move because it would finally cast an alliance race in a bit of a villain light (no matter how justified their reasons are to alliance fans, the horde will view them as the villains here.) - That could happen.

I know you would prefer the peace route, but your pipe dream has the biggest obstacle of all.. BLIZZARD GODS OF WARCRAFT. They're not interested in doing anything new that's peace/harmony related between the two factions, they are FAR MORE likely to ignore night elves going to the broken isles, or do war by causing the night elves to kick out the Nightborne or lose trying, than do the peace option - no matter how novel and noble @ravenmoon makes it sound.

My Proposal
Nightborne take over the Broken Isles alongside Broken Isle Night elves who ally with them... You get a night elf nation on the broken isles, that is led from Suramar with nightboren and night elf alike - Thalyssra, Prince Farondis, Lothrius, Valewalker Farodin, Rensar Greathoof, Ly'leth Lunastre, Valtrois and all the islands night elves joining them, and sort of like how you had high elves on the alliance but were never playable, these night elves are on the horde but aren't playable. furthermore the night elves don't go fighting horde wars, they're just on the island allied with the Nightborne, it's the Nightborne who fight the horde battles. This way you get a night elf kingdom, on the broken isles, just not the alliance one. They could even have the Wardens have a horde half and alliance half.

The alliance night elves, are a different lot, they are in Kalimdor and mostly wood elf types with some highborne and DHs, they get their new city, 1 or 2, but they have like a 60-70% population that's forest based, cos this is what they are more famous for.

N.B. They are not the only night elves, they have Highborne, and the Suramar Kingdom also has arcane wielding night elves like the Farondis and the Moonguard - so everyone will know for sure that yes night elves aren't just forest elves, but the alliance night elves are mainly forest elves. And niche fans like you will still have your highborne, and your city, but that aspect would be limited to the 1 or 2 urban centres, but the vast majority is WC3.


There you go, 2 night elf Kingdoms, one in Kalimdor, and one in Suramar. One alliance, one horde. Night elves do get the Broken shore, just not the night elves you hoped for.

Night Elf Kalimdor
You could end up really liking it. Night elves urbanise Darkshore - Mathystra, Bashal'aran and Ameth'aran rebuilt - but the rest is forest land as they restore Ashenvale and Felwood, Stonetalon too.

They get their Highborne city too in Eldre'thalas that spills into Desolace too, and make the rest of Feralas forest. Massive Temple of Elune in Desolace, followed by regenerated forest. So like 90% is forest. However, most of the night elves are WC3 kinds.

Yes, Mathystra will look like a smaller zin'Azshari with lots of flowers and gardens, Bashal'aran will be a mixed architecture city blending forest dwellings with pre-sundering ones, Ameth'aran will be like a pristine Tel'anor. highborne town. Eldre'thalas will be refurbished- highborne city - and that's it for the Highborne and City/temple.

Ashenvale is all Forest, maybe 1 temple in it. Felwood all forest, mostly healed. Stonetalon, all forest too. Lots of druids, Cenarions (dryads and Keepers), furbolgs, Treant people, worgen, huntresses etc - that's mainly the alliance night elves - note i said alliance night elves not ALL Night elves.

Alliance Night Elves: 80% Druid/Priest, 15% Highborne, 5% Illidari
Horde Night Kingdom of Suramar: 80% Highborne, 20% druid/priest - nightborne live in Suramar city, but some Night elves too from the other region as it is the capital


WIN- WIN- WIN - we all win. If blizzard put normal kaldorei on the horde, it would solve all these problems, and the Borken Isles makes sense - then they can build the Highborne image strongly on the horde since it already has Suramar, and the alliance highborne will benefit, because everyone will know it's highborne.