Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Thekri]

Appeal court ordering judge to dismiss Flynn’s case....isnt that just wonderful.

Honestly, I can live with that. Legally speaking at least.

The DoJ is corrupt as shit for asking to dismiss it, Sullivan was correct to balk at it, but ultimately that balking served the intended purpose of sending the message. We cannot rely on an individual judge to hold the DoJ accountable. The correct approach here is to have a non-corrupt DoJ that doesn't base its prosecution decisions on blatant political favoritism, and while it is a shame we don't have that, we can't really expect a court to conduct a prosecution without support from a prosecutor.

The proper takeaway from this is that we need to focus on the actual problem here, which is the absolutely gutted Justice system that Trump and Barr have deliberately created. We do not want a system that relies purely on the moral courage of individual judges, that is not a system, that is praying for a miracle. I respect Sullivan for taking a stand, but that stand is now over. I don't particularly mind Flynn walking free, if it gives us a path toward building a system where Justice is actually respected again.

[Benggaul]

I respect Sullivan for taking a stand, but that stand is now over. I don't particularly mind Flynn walking free, if it gives us a path toward building a system where Justice is actually respected again.

Well, that and we can continue to remind him that he already pled guilty. Twice.

The writing was on the wall for this outcome the moment the GOP failed to flinch at the obvious corruption involved in getting him off. It's not what SHOULD happen, but I think we all knew it's what would happen.

Now to brace against the oncoming storm of burner accounts and "concerned independents" coming to gloat about this as if it's something to be proud of.

[Machismo]

Well, that and we can continue to remind him that he already pled guilty. Twice.

The writing was on the wall for this outcome the moment the GOP failed to flinch at the obvious corruption involved in getting him off. It's not what SHOULD happen, but I think we all knew it's what would happen.

Now to brace against the oncoming storm of burner accounts and "concerned independents" coming to gloat about this as if it's something to be proud of.

In the end, they are proud of it... because the goal has always been about pissing off liberals, and seeing just how corrupt they can be, and still get away with it.

[Breccia]

Trump: We're moving my nomination speech that's me talking about me from North Carolina to Jacksonville!
Jacksonville: Please, don't do that.

58% of residents, including 62% of independents, don't want the move. It might have something to do with Florida breaking record after record after record after record after record after record after I do plan to finish eventually Kiff of new COVID-19 cases, considering 71% said exactly that.

[Benggaul]

Quick COVID-19 update: Even though today is a "lull" day in terms of reporting Florida has still reported about 3.5k cases, which is more than the highest they had on ANY day up until a couple days ago. The corrections won't come through until Tuesday, but I think coupled with the second "lull" day tomorrow it's probable they could crack 5k.

Florida is currently reporting 5,511 new cases today. I hate it when I'm right.

Also, fuck Florida.

[Levelfive]

Honestly, I can live with that. Legally speaking at least.

The DoJ is corrupt as shit for asking to dismiss it, Sullivan was correct to balk at it, but ultimately that balking served the intended purpose of sending the message. We cannot rely on an individual judge to hold the DoJ accountable. The correct approach here is to have a non-corrupt DoJ that doesn't base its prosecution decisions on blatant political favoritism, and while it is a shame we don't have that, we can't really expect a court to conduct a prosecution without support from a prosecutor.

The proper takeaway from this is that we need to focus on the actual problem here, which is the absolutely gutted Justice system that Trump and Barr have deliberately created. We do not want a system that relies purely on the moral courage of individual judges, that is not a system, that is praying for a miracle. I respect Sullivan for taking a stand, but that stand is now over. I don't particularly mind Flynn walking free, if it gives us a path toward building a system where Justice is actually respected again.

I believe he can dismiss without prejudice. @cubby I'm not sure if it's a good idea, but I still hope he does.

ETA: This is interesting:

"Whether the order will stand is unknown. There is nothing typical about how this dispute was brought to the appeals court and what to expect next. Because the DOJ and Flynn are on the same side in seeking the case’s dismissal, the judge is on his own to defend his move to bring in an outside party to scrutinize that request. However, there appears to be a possibility that the full D.C. Circuit of Appeals — where a majority of the judges are Democratic-appointees — could vote to review Wednesday’s order even without the judge requesting a rehearing."

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/m...-court-opinion

[Thepersona]

Florida is currently reporting 5,511 new cases today. I hate it when I'm right.

Also, fuck Florida.

The only good thing is that the death rate isnt climbing at the same rate as the infection rate (compared to march-april) maybe the standard of care is better now?

[Breccia]

The only good thing is that the death rate isnt climbing at the same rate as the infection rate (compared to march-april) maybe the standard of care is better now?

Florida isn't reporting the death rate accurately. I can think of 47 reasons we know this.

- - - Updated - - -

Fuck it, let's bring in CNN, now vetted Real News by everyone on these forums.

As Florida emerges from its coronavirus shutdown, the state is experiencing a surge of Covid-19 cases, with younger Floridians accounting for a significant number of positive tests.

The Florida Department of Health reported an additional 3,286 cases of coronavirus on Tuesday, bringing the state total to 103,503.

Medical experts and elected officials have attributed the rising numbers to a combination of more testing and more social contact as businesses reopen and, in recent weeks, to people's participation in large protests, although that has not been clearly established.

In Miami-Dade County, the state's most populous with 2.71 million people, data compiled by researchers at Florida International University shows that the number of positive Covid-19 tests has increased by an average of 35 every day during the past two weeks.

Researchers also found that hospitalizations, intensive care visits and ventilation use have all begun to increase over the past two weeks. Combined with a rise in cases, researchers say, this evidence points to increased community spread.

"Municipalities received guidelines on reopening but they do not have guidelines on when to pull back, which is why it is so critical to monitor the cases closely before the hospitals and ICUs start to have capacity issues -- which is something we have avoided so far in Miami-Dade County," said Dr. Mary Jo Trepka, the head of the epidemiology department at FIU.

Simply put, you can't have everyone out and wandering around without a mask, and still think this is a surprise.

"But Breccia! Surely this is the fault of those leftist communist Antifa terrorist riots!"

First of all...in Florida?

Second of all, no it isn't.

A new study, published this month by the National Bureau of Economic Research, used data on protests from more than 300 of the largest US cities, and found no evidence that coronavirus cases grew in the weeks following the beginning of the protests.

In fact, researchers determined that social distancing behaviors actually went up after the protests -- as people tried to avoid the protests altogether. But obviously, these demonstrations caused a decrease in social distancing among actual protesters.

"Our findings suggest that any direct decrease in social distancing among the subset of the population participating in the protests is more than offset by increasing social distancing behavior among others who may choose to shelter-at-home and circumvent public places while the protests are underway," the report reads.

It is possible the rate amongst the protestors has gone up, but they're not big enough of a population to make a statistically significant dent. Hopefully, we see the same thing from the almost 6,200 people who attended Trump's rally with 8 infected staff members.

To conclude:

fuck Florida.

[Thepersona]

Florida isn't reporting the death rate accurately. I can think of 47 reasons we know this.

I mean, yeah, but that has been the case since... Well since this shitshow started in march.

[Breccia]

I mean, yeah, but that has been the case since... Well since this shitshow started in march.

This is the 21st century. You can only sweep so much under the rug. If someone tests positive, you pretty much have to say "this person tested positive". That's an on/off switch. But if someone dies while infected, you can say "natural causes lol" or blame the symptom that the virus allowed to get worse, without blaming the virus itself.

Again, think Puerto Rico's hurricane death toll of a paper-towel-worthy double digits, but later, another few thousand people died, above and beyond PR's normal rate, to reasons that could easily be explained such as "died of heart attack because hospital didn't have power" or "died from disease from contaminated drinking water". Florida's doing the same thing.

[Benggaul]

The only good thing is that the death rate isnt climbing at the same rate as the infection rate (compared to march-april) maybe the standard of care is better now?

Right now it's a combination of things. First, this precipitous climb started within the past week or so and deaths usually lag behind a couple of weeks, so it could still be that we just haven't reached that threshold yet. Second, it seems like--in Florida, at least--it's hitting mostly younger people. While they aren't immune to the more dangerous side effects, they're usually more resilient and therefore less likely to expire as a result of the worse complications. Third--fuck Florida and their underreporting nonsense. Fourth, as you say, the standard of care IS probably better now than it was at the start, but that only holds true so long as the medical system isn't overwhelmed.

We did see an increase yesterday in deaths compared to the week before; we'll see if that happens again today or if that was just a one-off fluke.

[Thekri]

This is the 21st century. You can only sweep so much under the rug. If someone tests positive, you pretty much have to say "this person tested positive". That's an on/off switch. But if someone dies while infected, you can say "natural causes lol" or blame the symptom that the virus allowed to get worse, without blaming the virus itself.

Again, think Puerto Rico's hurricane death toll of a paper-towel-worthy double digits, but later, another few thousand people died, above and beyond PR's normal rate, to reasons that could easily be explained such as "died of heart attack because hospital didn't have power" or "died from disease from contaminated drinking water". Florida's doing the same thing.

Exactly, death rates always suspect for exactly this reason. The direct cause of death is legally distinct from the Proximate cause of death. For instance, the cause of death might be internal bleeding. However the internal bleeding was caused by being crushed between the steering wheel and the drivers seat. Which was caused by his vehicle slamming into a highway median. Which was caused when he swerved because a drunk driver skidded across 3 lanes of traffic toward his car. So although the drunk driver never actually hit him, the drunk driver can still be charged with manslaughter, because he was the proximate cause of death, even though the medical cause of death was internal bleeding.

This is clear legally, but when political interests get involved in concealing the proximate cause of death, it is very easy to fudge the numbers. "Died of asphyxiation"... after being shot in the throat. "Crushed by falling ceiling"... after we bombed the wrong building. "Died of respiratory disease"... after working in a coal mine for 30 years.

[Breccia]

And there it is.

Breaking news, NY imposes quarantine on visitors from spiking states.

If this sounds familiar, it should. Florida did the same thing to NY on March 23. Florida can't complain.

[Thepersona]

Right now it's a combination of things. First, this precipitous climb started within the past week or so and deaths usually lag behind a couple of weeks, so it could still be that we just haven't reached that threshold yet. Second, it seems like--in Florida, at least--it's hitting mostly younger people. While they aren't immune to the more dangerous side effects, they're usually more resilient and therefore less likely to expire as a result of the worse complications. Third--fuck Florida and their underreporting nonsense. Fourth, as you say, the standard of care IS probably better now than it was at the start, but that only holds true so long as the medical system isn't overwhelmed.

We did see an increase yesterday in deaths compared to the week before; we'll see if that happens again today or if that was just a one-off fluke.

I was speaking about the standard of care because at least here, we have like a third of the dead of italy, with more cases and more shitty healthcare.

[arandomuser]

lol
meghan mccains like
"next there going to try to cancel mount rushmore"
and the lakota nation is like " where have you been??"

[Benggaul]

I was speaking about the standard of care because at least here, we have like a third of the dead of italy, with more cases and more shitty healthcare.

Well in the case of Italy it was a matter of their healthcare system being completely overwhelmed. If they had had the hospital/ICU capacity necessary to treat all of the cases that came through I doubt they would have suffered such a calamity. They got caught completely off guard at the start of this pandemic and even their decent healthcare couldn't save them.

The US doesn't really have that excuse. I won't comment on the healthcare in Chile because I know next to nothing about it; I'll defer to your superior knowledge.

[Breccia]

More on the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut quarantines:

Cuomo said each of the three states will be responsible for its own enforcement. As of Wednesday, the advisory applies to Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina, Washington, Utah and Texas.

Fines for not quarantining are $2,000 for the first violation, $5,000 for the second violation, and $10,000 if you cause harm, Cuomo said.

So if, say, someone's wife from SC were to visit me for amazing sex, and as a result I got sick, she'd be fined $10,000 for it. I think I need to make a hypothetical phone call.

[Benggaul]

lol
meghan mccains like
"next there going to try to cancel mount rushmore"
and the lakota nation is like " where have you been??"

I'd rather see funding going towards the Crazy Horse Memorial.

- - - Updated - - -

More on the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut quarantines:



So if, say, someone's wife from SC were to visit me for amazing sex, and as a result I got sick, she'd be fined $10,000 for it. I think I need to make a hypothetical phone call.

Hmm. I'm a bit surprised not to see California on that list since they're also undergoing a fairly large spike right now. I hope politics isn't getting in the way of the public safety there.

[Breccia]

Oh, this is funny.

The US threatens Russia and China that they'll be isolated by the UN, if they block the US's upcoming motion to extend the Iran weapons ban.

"You oppose the ban?"

I mean, not really? The funny part is the US thinking they can follow through with this threat. The US has burned a lot of UN bridges recently. I don't think they can pull this off. Both Russia and China have veto powers, and the US can't stop them from using them.

Speaking of threats:

The United States has recorded the second-largest increase in coronavirus cases since the health crisis began, with a rise of 35,588 new infections on Tuesday as a dozen states see infections surge, according to a Reuters tally.

Tuesday was off a thousand and change from April 24, the highest ever.

"But Breccia! Surely this is caused by testing!"

No. Shut the fuck up, that's bullshit and everyone knows it.

Overall cases rose 25% last week, with 10 states reporting a greater than 50% rise in new infections, according to a Reuters analysis.

While some of the increased numbers of cases can be attributed to more testing, the numbers do not correlate.

The average number of tests has risen 7.6% over the last seven days, according to data from The COVID Tracking Project, while the average number of new cases rose 30%.

The percentage of positive tests is also rising.

At least four states are averaging double-digit rates of positive tests for the virus, such as Arizona at 20%. By contrast, New York, formerly the epicenter of the U.S. outbreak, has been reporting positive test rates of around 1%.

It's provably not testing. It's y'all not wearing the damn mask.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm a bit surprised not to see California on that list since they're also undergoing a fairly large spike right now.

I'm surprised but not shocked. California's in trouble in this context, no question, but Cuomo is likely pissed off about being a scapegoat and mocked for so long during a lethal outbreak dropped on his doorstep, and he's likely grinning like a Type IV Demon while signing the order, basking in the glow of taking actions that actually worked.

[Benggaul]

I'm surprised but not shocked. California's in trouble in this context, no question, but Cuomo is likely pissed off about being a scapegoat and mocked for so long during a lethal outbreak dropped on his doorstep, and he's likely grinning like a Type IV Demon while signing the order, basking in the glow of taking actions that actually worked.

I agree, but I think he'd better add Cali to that list lest it be seen as just a political maneuver. Otherwise it's not going to get taken as seriously as it really, really should.

I'm not really sure what's happening with California. They handled this at the start VERY well and I think I was among those who commended them for it. Given the dense population in their top cities--rivalling New York City which was an absolute disaster and still accounts for something like a fourth of the total deaths--they had comparatively little trouble in keeping everything locked up tight. Now, the past few weeks, it's getting pretty explosive over there. Really hoping we don't see a repeat of NYC there. People seem to be following the rules i.e. masks, social distancing and staying indoors in most areas from what I've read. Maybe it's just the sheer number of people tipping the balance the wrong way.

I do have to say the evidence of the past month should be sufficient for any lingering "the warm will kill it off" dipshits to scurry off back under their rocks.