Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[Accendor]

You mean the third party article that opens with "Polygon recently had the opportunity to sit down with Steve Danuser, senior narrative designer on World of Warcraft, and Steve Burke, senior designer and assistant quest lead."? There's... kinda a reason why the relevant bit about Wrathgate is written in quotation marks there.

I mean that this third party article is WELL lesser known and accessible than an official interview from Blizzcon.

[Faerillis]

its ok, those same civilians were then taken by Garrosh and gainfully employed at Org. The alliance then attacked Org and robbed them off their new home and jobs. according the @Protean, the writers and everyone else is "IN" on "IT". The horde was only trying to help.

There literally were no civilians in Theramore at the time of the bombing.
Why is that so hard for people to understand. It's not even subtext just fucking text. Theramore was, in accordance to Garrosh's plans, emptied of civilians and filled with high value, strategic military personnel. Nor was the city even remotely arguable as not an active military target; it built a highway through a swamp to continue supplying arms and armament to the Alliance front in the Barrens.

Stealing the focusing iris and killing blue dragons (a fully neutral party) was terrible.
Using the Mana Bomb was... well terrible-ish. It's not a real world nuke with all the extra damage that causes, just an incredibly powerful weapon. Had the elements been used to the same, Theramore would be in the same state with far less argument. It still wasn't Good. But it was well within the standards of war you would expect on Azeroth.
Yes a lot of people are homeless as a result; that does tend to happen.

Is Theramore worth holding a grudge over? Hell yes.
Was it a brutal campaign tactic? Hell yes.
Is it some unjustified war crime? No. At least not by Azerothian standards. Conquest is still seen as legitimate in Warcraft.

I get that MMO-Champion is a highly polarized place for Faction Fans. It's kind of an under-curated pit with no way to quash stupid things people say except refute them, rather than sort them to the bottom of the barrel. But the Horde has every right to be fucking pissed with their storytelling.
So does the Alliance.

The writing IS in a terrible place. I will admit at least the Story Lead probably plays more Horde than Alliance; he gave himself a huge self-insert character that exists to by Sylvanas's BF and if that ain't a sign I don't know what is. I have no patience for the Horde players who "Just want to be the villains" because they clearly never got past Fable 1 level morality systems and still want to be edgy; when the main point of the Horde was to get to be fully fleshed out characters and cultures of races (and of cultural coding) that were A L W A Y S villains before that point.
They can't deliver on shades of grey, no matter how obvious the options have been to make it so, which means someone has to be the villain sometimes to get shit started. I would hope you could understand why it would be fucking frustrating that it's always the side you chose, when the other side has tons of obvious options as well. Just as I can understand why Alliance fans get fucking tired of feeling like they are never Actors but Reactors with the story hinging on what the Horde does.

[Mehrunes]

There literally were no civilians in Theramore at the time of the bombing.
Why is that so hard for people to understand. It's not even subtext just fucking text. Theramore was, in accordance to Garrosh's plans, emptied of civilians and filled with high value, strategic military personnel. Nor was the city even remotely arguable as not an active military target; it built a highway through a swamp to continue supplying arms and armament to the Alliance front in the Barrens.

Well, to be specific, Theramore being emptied of civilians was more of a natural side effect of Garrosh's plan because he sat at the gates for a week and that gave people the time to flee. Saying that it was in accordance with Garrosh's plans makes it sound like (and I'm not claiming it was specifically your intent here) that it was actually something he explicitly wanted to happen and that his plan hinged on that.

[Specialka]

And that did not stop him capturing the fleeing civilians, torture them and murder them afterwards.

I wonder how horde fanboys would react to the Vindicaar vaporizing Orgrimmar from low orbit. After all, it is conquest, isn't it ?

[bowlink]

And that did not stop him capturing the fleeing civilians, torture them and murder them afterwards.

I wonder how horde fanboys would react to the Vindicaar vaporizing Orgrimmar from low orbit. After all, it is conquest, isn't it ?

The same way they react to the alliance stepping 1mm in morally grey terratory. Aka hordes pot calling the alliance kettle black. Atleast then they'll have 6 things they can list the alliance have arguably done since frozen throne.

[Faerillis]

Well, to be specific, Theramore being emptied of civilians was more of a natural side effect of Garrosh's plan because he sat at the gates for a week and that gave people the time to flee. Saying that it was in accordance with Garrosh's plans makes it sound like (and I'm not claiming it was specifically your intent here) that it was actually something he explicitly wanted to happen and that his plan hinged on that.

Sorry yes. I mean he did intend to give the civilians a huge amount of time to escape but not out of mercy, he (at that point in the story, after Wolfheart jumped him 16 steps down the villain track when he was already making good time) most certainly would have bombed civilians if he felt it advantageous. He waited strictly so they could get more strategically valuable targets in, not civilians out.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Garrosh didn’t want to just conquer all of kalimdor in cata that didn’t come till after. He was trying to get resources for his people so they wouldn’t starve. the horde tried to trade peacefully with the night elfs before the twilight hammer screwed it up and over aggressive carine challenged him for no reason because of it.

With peaceful options fallen away garrosh went to take the resources by force which is hard to blame him for when the hippie elf’s are hoarding multiple massive forest while you live in a crappy desert starving to death.

The horde had no right to Ashenvale. No right to take those resources by force. Being poor doesn't give you the right to steal.

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That would be pretty much the same as torching Teldrassil.

How so? Teldrassil was an unprovoked attack, Orgrimmar was the seat of power for a warmongering, actively dangerous empire.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The horde had no right to Ashenvale. No right to take those resources by force. Being poor doesn't give you the right to steal.

who cares about rights in a setting like wow? if they can take it they should even more so if it wouldn't negativity effect the night elf's which it wouldn't. If the night elf's want to act like lords sitting in there mighty throne sentencing peasants to death for poaching a single deer they will never notice then i say they deserve a good thrashing by the orcs. If they won't take the peaceful trade's then fuck em take what you need to survive.

[sam86]

The book canon never addresses the fact that Theramoore was sending troops

it is still canon -.-
Theramore was helping alliance and see that as 'stay neutral' no idea how, and went qq to Dalaran to help the 'neutral' city defend itself
Attack on Theramore is 100% legit
The way it was attacked (aka mana bomb) however is dirty and wrong, blizz did address that with npcs in 5.2 or something, which of course in now removed from game -.-, horde overall felt shame from the bomb use after their bloodlust dumped after this war, as shown even in-book

bcs it was done by horde to alliance, thats it, if it was other way around it would be fine and justified and nobody would ever be considered responsible for it or god forbid actualy punished

history is written by winners, like it or not alliance won every conflict with current horde, horde right now is pitiful, all cata advance (which was to actually balance how far more lands alliance had vs horde, but how dare horde and alliance tie in lands owned? alliance kids qq to death and blizz f8cked horde as usual) is lost, horde is nothing but shadow of its former self, with every faction shattered and its power drained, heck i doubt horde is even a major faction now
I can't name blizz ever saying horde was super power, while alliance where Azeroth only super power twice so far (end of MoP and of BFA)
we can't f8cking take back Ghostlands and scourge don't exist since over 8 years! at least Gnomes have very valid reason not able to take back a radiated city

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Sorry yes. I mean he did intend to give the civilians a huge amount of time to escape but not out of mercy, he (at that point in the story, after Wolfheart jumped him 16 steps down the villain track when he was already making good time) most certainly would have bombed civilians if he felt it advantageous. He waited strictly so they could get more strategically valuable targets in, not civilians out.

Regardless of 'reason', it has same result, which was he avoided civilians, but since blizz have rust for brain, they decided to make Garrosh capture those escaped civilians in a way literally impossible canon or in-game action, only way he was able to capture them is return back to time to get them, but who gives a f8ck about explain how? definitely not blizz

The horde had no right to Ashenvale. No right to take those resources by force. Being poor doesn't give you the right to steal.

so alliance prefer to hug trees and let horde old and young one die? surprising horde didn't agree
not that it matters anymore, horde now is a joke

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And that did not stop him capturing the fleeing civilians, torture them and murder them afterwards.

and how he did that? like seriously how, the book and in-game events and canon timeline doesn't even give a f8ck to explain it
It is literally impossible to do that without Bronze Dragonflight help, but let's make him even more EBIL for no reason
And by all means use it to vaporize Orgrimmar, at least it won't be defiled weekly by alliance turning our ex-warchief to loot piniata

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The same way they react to the alliance stepping 1mm in morally grey terratory. Aka hordes pot calling the alliance kettle black. Atleast then they'll have 6 things they can list the alliance have arguably done since frozen throne.

'1' mm? did u just ignore alliance favorite hobby of practice genocide against weaker races? the number of races purged from existence by a single alliance faction dwarfs entire horde factions combined
Horde is miles away from even getting close to 10% of what alliance did

[Combatbutler]

How so? Teldrassil was an unprovoked attack, Orgrimmar was the seat of power for a warmongering, actively dangerous empire.

It is a city full of civilians, if you are willing to write them off as a casualty of war, then there is no difference, both would be utterly unnecessary.

[Specialka]

it is still canon -.-
Theramore was helping alliance and see that as 'stay neutral' no idea how, and went qq to Dalaran to help the 'neutral' city defend itself
Attack on Theramore is 100% legit
The way it was attacked (aka mana bomb) however is dirty and wrong, blizz did address that with npcs in 5.2 or something, which of course in now removed from game -.-, horde overall felt shame from the bomb use after their bloodlust dumped after this war, as shown even in-book

history is written by winners, like it or not alliance won every conflict with current horde, horde right now is pitiful, all cata advance (which was to actually balance how far more lands alliance had vs horde, but how dare horde and alliance tie in lands owned? alliance kids qq to death and blizz f8cked horde as usual) is lost, horde is nothing but shadow of its former self, with every faction shattered and its power drained, heck i doubt horde is even a major faction now
I can't name blizz ever saying horde was super power, while alliance where Azeroth only super power twice so far (end of MoP and of BFA)
we can't f8cking take back Ghostlands and scourge don't exist since over 8 years! at least Gnomes have very valid reason not able to take back a radiated city

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Regardless of 'reason', it has same result, which was he avoided civilians, but since blizz have rust for brain, they decided to make Garrosh capture those escaped civilians in a way literally impossible canon or in-game action, only way he was able to capture them is return back to time to get them, but who gives a f8ck about explain how? definitely not blizz


so alliance prefer to hug trees and let horde old and young one die? surprising horde didn't agree
not that it matters anymore, horde now is a joke

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and how he did that? like seriously how, the book and in-game events and canon timeline doesn't even give a f8ck to explain it
It is literally impossible to do that without Bronze Dragonflight help, but let's make him even more EBIL for no reason
And by all means use it to vaporize Orgrimmar, at least it won't be defiled weekly by alliance turning our ex-warchief to loot piniata

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'1' mm? did u just ignore alliance favorite hobby of practice genocide against weaker races? the number of races purged from existence by a single alliance faction dwarfs entire horde factions combined
Horde is miles away from even getting close to 10% of what alliance did

Some were caught out in the sea, others in the marsh. You can see them when you do SoO. They are in cage or simply dead in the raid.

[Faerillis]

Some were caught out in the sea, others in the marsh. You can see them when you do SoO. They are in cage or simply dead in the raid.

Yes but, as much there is some problems with what he said, that's really really impossible by the book canon. They were ported and shipped out long before the attack. There weren't floundering civilians left in the city at the time of the attack. It seems to be in effort to make it more atrocious but it does contradict the book's first hand account. If you're going to have a story told across different types of media, you have to follow what you write down at some point or proactively point out what was wrong

[EntertainmentNihilist]

It is a city full of civilians, if you are willing to write them off as a casualty of war, then there is no difference, both would be utterly unnecessary.

I suppose that depends on your moral philosophy. I care more about context results than direct actions. I don't view it as "these actions are the same, therefore they are either both bad or both good.", the results (and intended results) of the actions matter.

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who cares about rights in a setting like wow? if they can take it they should even more so if it wouldn't negativity effect the night elf's which it wouldn't. If the night elf's want to act like lords sitting in there mighty throne sentencing peasants to death for poaching a single deer they will never notice then i say they deserve a good thrashing by the orcs. If they won't take the peaceful trade's then fuck em take what you need to survive.

Rights are a part of morality. If we don't care about morals, nothing is unjustified. Killing and torturing kids for fun is justified. This post assumes morals exist and are relevant in this setting, so i'm going with that.

And morally speaking, the Horde had no right to r*pe and pillage Ashenvale, which is not part of their land. Survival or no. Survival doesn't justify doing evil things IMO.

It's also worth noting that lots and lots of spirits call Ashenvale home, including the trees. They may either die or at least become homeless as a result of this invasion. Even if you don't value animal lives, you should at least value them, since they are sentient / sapient.

[Faerillis]

I suppose that depends on your moral philosophy. I care more about context results than direct actions. I don't view it as "these actions are the same, therefore they are either both bad or both good.", the results (and intended results) of the actions matter.

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Rights are a part of morality. If we don't care about morals, nothing is unjustified. Killing and torturing kids for fun is justified. This post assumes morals exist and are relevant in this setting, so i'm going with that.

And morally speaking, the Horde had no right to r*pe and pillage Ashenvale, which is not part of their land. Survival or no. Survival doesn't justify doing evil things IMO.

It's also worth noting that lots and lots of spirits call Ashenvale home, including the trees. They may either die or at least become homeless as a result of this invasion. Even if you don't value animal lives, you should at least value them, since they are sentient / sapient.

Man you're doing some olympic level mental gymnastics.

First we can say, pretty fucking concretely, that there was no rape involved in Ashenvale. It's never referenced once and including it in a fantasy setting of WoW's flavour without it being an absolutely necessary plot point would be in terrible taste.

But please, continue to tell me how someone's right to property they already have in abundance is of greater moral value than the lives of starving people. I realize that's not actually an uncommon moral belief (especially in the States) but it is absolutely aberrant. Those spirits hardly seem sapient by any real measure nor any more or less bound to the land. They could have tried to work with the Orcs as well to guide them towards more sustainable practices of extraction but they also decided to say 'Fuck your entire civilian population of diasporic refugees' just like the NElfs did.

Survival alone didn't motivate the attacks on Ashenvale, it motivated negotiations. The Orcs tried to negotiate for hunting rights and water rights, to take what they needed peacefully and in ways that could work with the NElves. The NElves decided "Nah yall can starve". The Orcs tried to work within the system, the NElves said 'Fuck you us holding onto way more than we need is more important than your lives' and the Orcs decided that wasn't good enough, fuck your system. It's kinda like if a Union were trying to form under a Tech CEO to get decent living conditions, Tech CEO illegally busted the Union and the workers decide to parody redacted the guy and take his shit. Seems like the only moral response in my books.

[Specialka]

Your analogy is flawed since the Workers Union would be led by a warmonger and the Tech CEO did not need the employees.

Maybe if the Orcs were not led by Garrosh, maybe the NE would have negotiate something.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Man you're doing some olympic level mental gymnastics.

First we can say, pretty fucking concretely, that there was no rape involved in Ashenvale. It's never referenced once and including it in a fantasy setting of WoW's flavour without it being an absolutely necessary plot point would be in terrible taste.

But please, continue to tell me how someone's right to property they already have in abundance is of greater moral value than the lives of starving people. I realize that's not actually an uncommon moral belief (especially in the States) but it is absolutely aberrant. Those spirits hardly seem sapient by any real measure nor any more or less bound to the land. They could have tried to work with the Orcs as well to guide them towards more sustainable practices of extraction but they also decided to say 'Fuck your entire civilian population of diasporic refugees' just like the NElfs did.

Survival alone didn't motivate the attacks on Ashenvale, it motivated negotiations. The Orcs tried to negotiate for hunting rights and water rights, to take what they needed peacefully and in ways that could work with the NElves. The NElves decided "Nah yall can starve". The Orcs tried to work within the system, the NElves said 'Fuck you us holding onto way more than we need is more important than your lives' and the Orcs decided that wasn't good enough, fuck your system. It's kinda like if a Union were trying to form under a Tech CEO to get decent living conditions, Tech CEO illegally busted the Union and the workers decide to parody redacted the guy and take his shit. Seems like the only moral response in my books.

Well no, they tried to get the Night Elves to agree to let them cut down *their* trees, and kill *their* animals, and the Night Elves said no. So the Garrosh decided to take it by force.

As for the spirits, they talk to people all the time, at least a large number of them are clearly sentient.

And as for what has more value, you don't get to decide that you would benefit more from somebody else's things than they do, so it's okay for you to take it from them. That's not acceptable in almost any culture. By that logic, it would be fine to rob anyone who has even slightly better off than you.

Lastly, have you not heard of the expression "R*pe and pillage the land"? It's not literal (s*xual) r*pe of the people.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Rights are a part of morality. If we don't care about morals, nothing is unjustified. Killing and torturing kids for fun is justified. This post assumes morals exist and are relevant in this setting, so i'm going with that.

And morally speaking, the Horde had no right to r*pe and pillage Ashenvale, which is not part of their land. Survival or no. Survival doesn't justify doing evil things IMO.

It's also worth noting that lots and lots of spirits call Ashenvale home, including the trees. They may either die or at least become homeless as a result of this invasion. Even if you don't value animal lives, you should at least value them, since they are sentient / sapient.

There is nothing moral about sitting on stacks on resources while other starve around you, if you want to make it a morality thing then the only moral option is to let the orcs have the resources the night elfs don’t need so they don’t starve to death because your a high riding fat cat hoarding resources.

The night elfs were also willing to trade with the horde before so there’s no case to say the orcs taking some resources would hurt the spirits.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

There is nothing moral about sitting on stacks on resources while other starve around you, if you want to make it a morality thing then the only moral option is to let the orcs have the resources the night elfs don’t need so they don’t starve to death because your a high riding fat cat hoarding resources.

The night elfs were also willing to trade with the horde before so there’s no case to say the orcs taking some resources would hurt the spirits.

Even if I grant all of that (which I don't), that wouldn't justify pillaging their lands. Again, being poor doesn't give you the right to mug rich people.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Even if I grant all of that (which I don't), that wouldn't justify pillaging their lands. Again, being poor doesn't give you the right to mug rich people.

This isn’t the equivalent of mugging any one it’s hunting a deer that technically belongs to the lord of the land and being branded a poacher even though they would have never used the deer them selfs. The lord letting the peasants die because they want to own every little thing even though they won’t ever get any use out of it isn’t in the right and neither are the night elfs.

[Mehrunes]

Pretty sure the alliance actions in the southern barrens were in response to horde aggression in Ashenvale. You know...the reason Cairne stood up to Garrosh and died.

Northwatch attack on the Crossroads and the conquest of Honor's Stand predate Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale.

I suppose that depends on your moral philosophy. I care more about context results than direct actions. I don't view it as "these actions are the same, therefore they are either both bad or both good.", the results (and intended results) of the actions matter.

And the intended result of flooding Orgrimmar was killing all Orcs because they were Orcs (Khadgar pointing out the Orc orphans to dissuade Jaina only egged her on), not because Orgrimmar was a seat of power of a warmongering empire (especially since if that was Jaina's motivation she should have flooded Stormwind as the Alliance was not only the aggressor in this war in general, but it also attacked more Horde zones than vice versa).

Well no, they tried to get the Night Elves to agree to let them cut down *their* trees, and kill *their* animals, and the Night Elves said no. So the Garrosh decided to take it by force.

They didn't "try to". They had trade relations with the Night Elves prior to Wrath. It's just that the Night Elves unilaterally ceased all trade relations over Wrathgate (despite the Alliance already knowing by that time that the Wrathgate was performed by people that turned against the Horde and not the actual Horde). And since there is no Azerothian WTO and the peace talks with Alliance led to nowhere because Varian was a hotheaded moron with ridiculous expectations of the Horde (like bitching about the Horde not turning in the perpetrators of an attack in Ashenvale before Thrall actually investigated the event and found out who the perpetrators were; it just so happened it was a false flag operation by the Twilight Hammer), the only recourse the Horde had against Night Elves violating trade relations like that was war.