Star Wars: John Favreau's Sequel Retcon Rumors [Discussion]

[PACOX]

See, people say this shit. But high chance those were the people that said "George Lucas ruined my childhood" and "But the prequels were terrible" that necessitated TFA being boring and safe to not scare you. Meanwhile, you have a panic attack if someone even thinks a negative thing about TLJ.

I like the prequels. They are BAD movies. But I don't go "Well, ALL the movies are bad" because I can actually handle hearing that. If you could handle it, you wouldn't have cried over people calling TLJ bad.

There's plenty of on this site who enjoy I talking SW with that say they don't like TLJ. Don't remember 'losing my shit' talking to them. Don't remember losing my shit in this thread. What you eat doesn't make me shit.

[PaladinSum]

There's plenty of on this site who enjoy I talking SW with that say they don't like TLJ. Don't remember 'losing my shit' talking to them. Don't remember losing my shit in this thread. What you eat doesn't make me shit.

and people say TLJ is the bad one

Plus your "Star wars was always bad" line is even more funny now. I thought they were all bad.

And I'm enjoying this talk, despite the subject matter. It's nice to see people that think TLJ is good are real and not bots.

[Endus]

How does the movie imply he is all knowing? And what makes you suggest that Rey was the stronger one? What in Palpatine's character makes you think he'd let the loose string dangle. The last loose string got him down a shaft (JJ with his 'originality' again).

Who said he was going to clone himself forever? If he could clone himself he wouldn't have been hanging out in his zombified body for 30 years. He was literally ready to kick the bucket until Kylo and Rey didn't go along with his plan.

Just speaking about that movie shows how ridiculous it is...and people say TLJ is the bad one.

The problem is that Abrams has terminal mystery box syndrome. Finales are supposed to tie off loose threads and provide satisfying (not necessarily happy) endings to all the hanging plot threads that were integral to the series. Abrams is really bad at this, and always has been; he very much enjoys asking mysterious questions more than he likes coming up with answers. TFA was mostly "fine"; it hit the tone right but there's some silly-bananas stuff like Starkiller base shooting through hyperspace (okay?) and creating a rift so that people in-system could see it hit the target planets (WTF? This exists because Abrams thought it looked cool and that's it).

Johnson tried to upend some of the tropes in ways that fans had been absolutely clamoring for, for literally decades;

1> What if Rey was a nobody? Why does everyone have to be the kid of some other major name in this series? Why can't they just be someone random?

2> Why not explore the grays between the Light and the Dark, with a hero who's instinct is to reach for the Dark Side, and a villain who seems to be sympathetic and redeemable?

3> Let's discuss why final victories don't magically fix everything forever, and overcoming character flaws is an ongoing, long-term process, not a one-stop fix; Luke's journey in TLJ is this, in a nutshell. It expands on Luke's temptations throughout the OT, and dares to suggest that maybe he didn't get completely over that in one moment of saying "not today" in RotJ. Luke's an addict, and his drug is the Dark Side. He's always going to be tempted, and has to police himself constantly to avoid falling off the wagon. That's real, and a really good discussion to have. Especially since Luke wins against this temptation, both in the OT, the flashbacks, and the ST.

4> What if being a hothead upstart isn't good leadership? Hello, Poe's arc.

5> Sometimes, criminals are shitty people you shouldn't automatically trust. Hello, Casino arc and Del Toro's character's narrative purpose. Meant to contrast against the "smuggler with a heart of gold" trope that Han represented. The weakest of these points, admittedly, but not an invalid statement.

Those were all reasonable paths forward. An interesting new path, exploring new territory rather than just "let's do Eps 4-6 again".

And then Ep 9 comes out, and Rey's a somebody, there is only Light and Dark, no Gray, this final victory will solve everything forever, Poe's an awesome leader because fuck you, and the best people to trust are criminals (again, weakest, but Lando's not an upstanding citizen. He's awesome and it was great to see Billy Dee Williams reprise the role, but as the avatar of Saviour of the Galaxy? A bit on the nose, Abrams).

The biggest issue with Ep 8 is that it dared to try something new, for once. And the biggest issues with Ep 9 is that it takes those new options, and universally says "NOOOOPE" and ignores it all. While also abandoning a lot of evocative mystery boxes Abrams himself laid out.

Edit: The worst is Finn. He had a role in TLJ, but they basically dropped him in RoS. He said he had a "secret" multiple times, and the evocative scenes of him with the lightsaber could have been great foreshadowing. Finn as a Force sensitive, apprenticed to Rey, and acting as her anchor to the Light Side, that would've done a lot to "fix" both Finn having an arc and the whole final scene where Rey's fighting to resist Palpatine; Finn could be her reason to reject it.

[Armakus]

Well, i am a bit lazy and will simply copy the things i wrote you back in the Obi-Wan Kenobi Thread:
1.
Great, now let's take the gross and turn it into the net, the REALLY important part.
Total domestic for all movies: 2.806.247.432 *0,6 = 1.683.748.459,20 $
Total foreign for all movies: 3.092.357.313 *0,4 = 1.236.942.925,20 $
totals to: 2.920.691.384,40 $

Congratulation, your IP, which you bought for 4 billion dollars, has after 8 years and 5 movies, not recovered the initial investment.
Oh, they managed to cover the cost of most movies (Solo officially bombed and Rise has so far maybe broken even), but as a shareholder i would start asking the important question when these 4 billions will be regained. In another 16-24 years?

This whole thread has started off at a bad start. Why would any of these numbers scare shareholders? Star wars has proven to be an incredibly strong IP that can stand the strength of time. Disney did not drop billions expecting to make it back within 5-10, hell, even 15 years. This seems pretty standard to me.

[I Push Buttons]

And why is that? Do you think you could have written a better three films?

Probably. Episode 7 was merely bad, but Episode 8 was quite literally one of the worst written pieces of literal dog shit I have ever had the displeasure of experiencing.

Can't comment on Episode 9 since after Episode 8 I began to care so little for Star Wars that I didn't even bother to see it.

That's the prime reason to never do anything like this. They shouldn't get a mulligan because this is exactly how they wanted this to turn out.

Not to mention the logistical nightmare doing a trilogy over would be. It's not like there is a script floating around, ready to go. Plus, we don't have Fisher and I'm sure Ford is going to demand even more money than before since he hasn't wanted to be here since Empire.

Indeed, a small indie studio like Disney... It would basically be impossible for an outfit that small and strapped for resources to write a film trilogy and then produce it.

[prwraith]

You called me "kiddo", so validate that. It's very childish to abuse the moderation system to insult me at every turn.

Your inability to move past it and continue the conversation would seem to substantiate it. And I'll remind the sir, that you were the first one to go directly hostile. But of course I'm obviously not a true fan and should go back to where I came from because I can recognize plot holes, horrid writing, and forgotten characters.

[Nefastus]

You were the same guy that disregarded Episodes I-III when they were released, or mayhaps you weren't even born yet?

I was 17 when Episode 1 was released. Overall I liked the prequels back then (still do today) and Revenge of the Sith is still one of my favorites (tied with Empire). BTW, why the age implying sarcasm? I do belive younger people (most likely you are younger than me) are also entitled to have their opinions on the Episodes 1- 3 and 4 - 6. Disney sequels are just plain trash. They are bordeline insulting. Ignoring their existance is the best thing a fan of the franchise can do. Now a sugestion not related to the topic itself, you should try to be more civil with the people in here. From your previous replies it seens you are too eager to insult others when they disagree with you.

[Adamas102]

I can tell you're part of the hive mind who just enjoys to hate on things. You do a lot of assuming. And you know what they say about that!

Well look at that. It's not often you see the definition of hypocrisy this clearly. I can tell you do a lot of assuming since you just clearly proved it. Not that you deserve a response, but for the sake for it I'll let you know that you're wrong. I tend to enjoy most movies I watch, but that doesn't preclude me from also being able to look at them critically. I think it's perfectly fine for you to enjoy these movies. Being objectively poorly written and still fun to watch aren't mutually exclusive. It's Star Wars, it's iconic, it's flashy. Enjoy it for what it is, but stop making excuses for its shortcomings.

[Nefastus]

Well that is because it is, it's Kathleen Kennedy fan fiction like almost everything done by Disney Wars. All of the female main characters are white and brunette just like her (despite them going on about how diversity is important to them) Those characters are loved by everyone without any justification. Especially in the Disney Trilogy all other women are written so horribly.

Phasma was a two time joke
Holdo was pretty incompetent and let almost everyone but the heroes die before she actually did something
Rose was written badly and they basically tried to erase her in RoS
Jannah in a world of blasters and plasma blades they give the black woman a bow and arrows

Everything in the Disney Trilogy was about elevating Rey and not much else

I have to say I didn't even bother watching the last one after reading what it was about. The LJ I saw on TV and had to hold myself from puking, it was even worse than 7. Was painful to watch. Eating glass would be a more enjoyable experience.

[Triceron]

I honestly don't understand how people like the Last Jedi.

I make an effort to try and understand it, despite my own biases, but I can't help but look at the movie for all its plot inconsistencies and I can't regard the entire thing as having any meaningful merit behind it. The message it tries to tell is marred by plot itself. Yeah, I get that you want to kill the past, but did we have to subvert every established character in the series? Yeah, I get that the good guys can't always win every mission they go on, but did we have to waste an entire subplot going to Casinoland that amounts to nothing furthering the main story? As a story, as a movie, I don't get how people can consider this acceptable.

Even Rogue One was a story that showed not all battles could be won, not all good guys are so good, and the entire ending is not just predictable, but established. It still did a fantastic job of portraying the Star Wars universe. It was still a consistent movie with a sensible plot.

[Frontenac]

And then Ep 9 comes out, and Rey's a somebody,

I agree with almost all you said about TLJ, but I don't see Episode 9 the same way.

"Rey is a nobody" was told by Kylo, the villain, to taunt Rey to join him. The important part of what Kylo said was not that Rey's parents were drunkards, nobody (how can he know), but the "kill the past" part. That's a contrast between Rey and both Luke and Anakin Skywalker. Luke and Anakin were always looking towards the future. Rey is the opposite: she's always looking at the past, and it hinders her. That's the lesson she had to learn in Ep. 8: knowing her origin is not important to what she is. In TRoS, she learns that she's a Palpatine. What she learned in Ep. 8 is put to the test. Leia and Luke help her realize that her origins are not important to who she is. So nothing really change. It's just that now she knows, and she must learn to cope with it. But it remains that her parents could be nobodies or her grand-father Palpatine, it must not influence her in what she wants to do with her powers and with her life.

there is only Light and Dark, no Gray,

Well, sorry, but all that idea about a Gray side has always been fan fiction and nothing in the movies really hinted to that. The fact that the heroine is tempted by the Dark Side is nothing new (hello Luke and Anakin). What was new was that the villain was conflicted too. But an heroine verging on the Dark Side and a villain verging on the Light did not mean that they would converge towards the Gray.

this final victory will solve everything forever,

Or did it? I mean, I know they said that Palpatine is now gone for good, but the Dark Side remains. And the defeat of the First/Final Order still leaves the galaxy in a power vaccum. The New Republic is still gone, and there is no guarantee that it will be restored.

Poe's an awesome leader because fuck you,

Poe is the ST's Leia. His story arc was all about becoming a/the leader of the Resistance. His failure in TLJ is part of his learning curve. That he becomes a decent leader in TRoS is just the logical continuation of his story.

and the best people to trust are criminals (again, weakest, but Lando's not an upstanding citizen. He's awesome and it was great to see Billy Dee Williams reprise the role, but as the avatar of Saviour of the Galaxy? A bit on the nose, Abrams).

When we meet Lando in ESB, he is no longer a criminal. Oh, he is not really trustworthy, but after RotJ he is a respected hero of the Rebellion and nothing tells us that he returned to a criminal life. So, like you said yourself, this is really the weakest of your argument.

Edit: The worst is Finn. He had a role in TLJ, but they basically dropped him in RoS. He said he had a "secret" multiple times, and the evocative scenes of him with the lightsaber could have been great foreshadowing. Finn as a Force sensitive, apprenticed to Rey, and acting as her anchor to the Light Side, that would've done a lot to "fix" both Finn having an arc and the whole final scene where Rey's fighting to resist Palpatine; Finn could be her reason to reject it.

Yeah, it's almost as if they want to keep the character for other mediums, like books or video games. So much is hinted about him. It's clear that he is Force-sensitive, but they don't do much with him. He's like Leia in RotJ. You know she's Force-sensitive, but it is left for after the movies.

[PaladinSum]

Probably. Episode 7 was merely bad, but Episode 8 was quite literally one of the worst written pieces of literal dog shit I have ever had the displeasure of experiencing.

Can't comment on Episode 9 since after Episode 8 I began to care so little for Star Wars that I didn't even bother to see it.



Indeed, a small indie studio like Disney... It would basically be impossible for an outfit that small and strapped for resources to write a film trilogy and then produce it.

What I mean is they'd start writing after confirming all this. As in, the script would be rushed as fuck and we'd be at risk of just fucking up all over again.

I'd rather we'd just move on from this fuck up instead of trying to undo it. Less riskier.

[Endus]

I agree with almost all you said about TLJ, but I don't see Episode 9 the same way.

"Rey is a nobody" was told by Kylo, the villain, to taunt Rey to join him. The important part of what Kylo said was not that Rey's parents were drunkards, nobody (how can he know), but the "kill the past" part.

I am 98% on that side, myself, and made that same argument to a lot of people, when TLJ had come out and everyone was pissed she wasn't someone. Total agreement that Kylo was lying and had no way to know that; even with his connection to Rey, he could only be feeling what she knew, which was nothing.

He could've been right, though. Kylo making it up doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong.

Well, sorry, but all that idea about a Gray side has always been fan fiction and nothing in the movies really hinted to that. The fact that the heroine is tempted by the Dark Side is nothing new (hello Luke and Anakin). What was new was that the villain was conflicted too. But an heroine verging on the Dark Side and a villain verging on the Light did not mean that they would converge towards the Gray.

I didn't really mean that they'd "converge". I theorised that they'd flip (and I think that's what Johnson imagined), with Rey spinning wide-eyed to the Dark Side and Kylo fighting his way back to the Light. That would've led into Eps 10-12, theoretically, with a villain who's as open-eyed and unflinching as Palpatine, and a hero who's already falled to the Dark Side once and knows the risks it presents. If I were writing it, he'd be trying to save Rey, as he'd saved himself, and ultimately, he'd fail. And have to kill her, to stop her. But I have a somewhat masochistic love for pyrrhic victories. I don't know how I'd carry that through three movies, but I'm speaking to broad arcs here, rather than full detailed plots.

But regardless, Kylo leans towards the gray a lot in TFA and TLJ, and seems conflicted about the Dark Side a fair bit. Like he's trying to convince himself that it's okay to be Dark, the whole time. Rey's more "pure", but I felt you could explore a balanced understanding of Light and Dark through Kylo, with the dangers of extremism and absolutism represented by Rey (also in the collapse of both Jedi and Sith, looking backwards).

Or did it? I mean, I know they said that Palpatine is now gone for good, but the Dark Side remains. And the defeat of the First/Final Order still leaves the galaxy in a power vaccum. The New Republic is still gone, and there is no guarantee that it will be restored.

I would argue that neither the old Republic (as distinct from the Old Republic, I'm speaking to the prequel era) or the New Republic were really necessary at all. They were bureaucratic and borderline useless. We see plenty of independent or separatist nations in the Clone Wars and other content that look like they're kind of doing fine, y'know, taken outside of the war footing. The rest is valid, though speaks to deeper issues.

Poe is the ST's Leia. His story arc was all about becoming a/the leader of the Resistance. His failure in TLJ is part of his learning curve. That he becomes a decent leader in TRoS is just the logical continuation of his story.

It's more that they don't really present him facing any real challenges, he was set up to take that mantle in TLJ but only because literally everyone else had died. He wasn't ready. And then, in RoS, he's full-on ready and doing fine. It's not that he got there, it's that TLJ stated he needed to get there, and then in RoS, he was already there; they skipped over that development largely.

Yeah, it's almost as if they want to keep the character for other mediums, like books or video games. So much is hinted about him. It's clear that he is Force-sensitive, but they don't do much with him. He's like Leia in RotJ. You know she's Force-sensitive, but it is left for after the movies.

The first film to actually do anything meaningful with Leia's Force-sensitivity was The Last Jedi. I think the only other time it comes up other than vague references where she isn't even in the room, is a couple brief moments she's able to sense Luke somehow (which, unfortunately, makes it more about Luke than Leia).

I don't agree that Finn was "left for other mediums". Other mediums will pick up on his threads, but if the character isn't going to serve a purpose in the narrative you're telling, don't include them. They could've put Finn into a "I'm trying to convert First Order stormtroopers to join the Resistance" kind of thing, off-screen, in the opening crawl of RoS. But Boyega had a contract, so he runs around and is present on screen but does not contribute to the narrative.

My issue is the waste this is of the character and a fine actor, lest anyone think I'm crapping on either.

It's just lazy writing. I don't think RoS is the worstest thing ever, it's just fairly lazy and shows off Abrams' propensity to half-ass things and rush explanations because he very much loves mysteries, and will create them without ever having any idea or intent of ever solving them for the audience. And that's bad mystery. It's putting an armory's worth of Chekov's Guns into the story without ever expecting to fire any of them, because you think everyone loves guns.

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I honestly don't understand how people like the Last Jedi.

I make an effort to try and understand it, despite my own biases, but I can't help but look at the movie for all its plot inconsistencies and I can't regard the entire thing as having any meaningful merit behind it. The message it tries to tell is marred by plot itself. Yeah, I get that you want to kill the past, but did we have to subvert every established character in the series?

Luke's arc, for instance, is not in any respect a subversion. It's the logical extension of Luke Skywalker, as seen in the OT. The farmboy who was in over his head and constantly tempted by the Dark Side. Who lost his final battle, I might add. Luke Skywalker wasn't the hero who saves the day, in Return of the Jedi. That was Vader. Luke's the walking maguffin that made Vader desire redemption, in that film.

Yeah, I get that the good guys can't always win every mission they go on, but did we have to waste an entire subplot going to Casinoland that amounts to nothing furthering the main story? As a story, as a movie, I don't get how people can consider this acceptable.

That subplot establishes a lot of worldbuilding and character development;
1> The Republic was corrupt and just as willing to engage in arms deals with nefarious people as any evil empire
2> Force sensitives outside of the canonical handful in the main cast still exist in the greater universe
3> Poe and Finn and Rose are way too eager to trust for some reason, and their hotheadedness gets nearly everyone in the Resistance killed
4> Without the casino subplot, Holdo's plan works, and the entire Resistance escapes to Crait, and the First Order loses them and doesn't know where they went.
5> Canto Bight is basically where Finn decides who he wants to be, between Rose and DJ pulling him in different directions. It's the first point he really starts trying to define who he is and who he wants to be.

The idea that the Canto Bight section is pointless really does not hold up.

[PaladinSum]

I am 98% on that side, myself, and made that same argument to a lot of people, when TLJ had come out and everyone was pissed she wasn't someone. Total agreement that Kylo was lying and had no way to know that; even with his connection to Rey, he could only be feeling what she knew, which was nothing.

He could've been right, though. Kylo making it up doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong.


I didn't really mean that they'd "converge". I theorised that they'd flip (and I think that's what Johnson imagined), with Rey spinning wide-eyed to the Dark Side and Kylo fighting his way back to the Light. That would've led into Eps 10-12, theoretically, with a villain who's as open-eyed and unflinching as Palpatine, and a hero who's already falled to the Dark Side once and knows the risks it presents. If I were writing it, he'd be trying to save Rey, as he'd saved himself, and ultimately, he'd fail. And have to kill her, to stop her. But I have a somewhat masochistic love for pyrrhic victories. I don't know how I'd carry that through three movies, but I'm speaking to broad arcs here, rather than full detailed plots.

But regardless, Kylo leans towards the gray a lot in TFA and TLJ, and seems conflicted about the Dark Side a fair bit. Like he's trying to convince himself that it's okay to be Dark, the whole time. Rey's more "pure", but I felt you could explore a balanced understanding of Light and Dark through Kylo, with the dangers of extremism and absolutism represented by Rey (also in the collapse of both Jedi and Sith, looking backwards).



I would argue that neither the old Republic (as distinct from the Old Republic, I'm speaking to the prequel era) or the New Republic were really necessary at all. They were bureaucratic and borderline useless. We see plenty of independent or separatist nations in the Clone Wars and other content that look like they're kind of doing fine, y'know, taken outside of the war footing. The rest is valid, though speaks to deeper issues.



It's more that they don't really present him facing any real challenges, he was set up to take that mantle in TLJ but only because literally everyone else had died. He wasn't ready. And then, in RoS, he's full-on ready and doing fine. It's not that he got there, it's that TLJ stated he needed to get there, and then in RoS, he was already there; they skipped over that development largely.



The first film to actually do anything meaningful with Leia's Force-sensitivity was The Last Jedi. I think the only other time it comes up other than vague references where she isn't even in the room, is a couple brief moments she's able to sense Luke somehow (which, unfortunately, makes it more about Luke than Leia).

I don't agree that Finn was "left for other mediums". Other mediums will pick up on his threads, but if the character isn't going to serve a purpose in the narrative you're telling, don't include them. They could've put Finn into a "I'm trying to convert First Order stormtroopers to join the Resistance" kind of thing, off-screen, in the opening crawl of RoS. But Boyega had a contract, so he runs around and is present on screen but does not contribute to the narrative.

My issue is the waste this is of the character and a fine actor, lest anyone think I'm crapping on either.

It's just lazy writing. I don't think RoS is the worstest thing ever, it's just fairly lazy and shows off Abrams' propensity to half-ass things and rush explanations because he very much loves mysteries, and will create them without ever having any idea or intent of ever solving them for the audience. And that's bad mystery. It's putting an armory's worth of Chekov's Guns into the story without ever expecting to fire any of them, because you think everyone loves guns.

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Luke's arc, for instance, is not in any respect a subversion. It's the logical extension of Luke Skywalker, as seen in the OT. The farmboy who was in over his head and constantly tempted by the Dark Side. Who lost his final battle, I might add. Luke Skywalker wasn't the hero who saves the day, in Return of the Jedi. That was Vader. Luke's the walking maguffin that made Vader desire redemption, in that film.



That subplot establishes a lot of worldbuilding and character development;
1> The Republic was corrupt and just as willing to engage in arms deals with nefarious people as any evil empire
2> Force sensitives outside of the canonical handful in the main cast still exist in the greater universe
3> Poe and Finn and Rose are way too eager to trust for some reason, and their hotheadedness gets nearly everyone in the Resistance killed
4> Without the casino subplot, Holdo's plan works, and the entire Resistance escapes to Crait, and the First Order loses them and doesn't know where they went.
5> Canto Bight is basically where Finn decides who he wants to be, between Rose and DJ pulling him in different directions. It's the first point he really starts trying to define who he is and who he wants to be.

The idea that the Canto Bight section is pointless really does not hold up.

On number 4. If you think the First Order doesn't know about escape crafts and wouldn't be checking the closest planet for survivors...

You know what? Fuck it. The people with decloaking scans aren't using them to check for survivors because they're fucking idiots.

[Kallisto]

It can't be that simple since not liking a movie tends to send people into a frothing rage to defend the sequel triology.

When every problem in the sequel trilogy is in the original trilogy and ignored because reasons, then yes it's not just that simple.

[PaladinSum]

When every problem in the sequel trilogy is in the original trilogy and ignored because reasons, then yes it's not just that simple.

And yet, you won't criticize the modern version of those mistakes if you're to be believed.

I wonder why you can't handle those criticisms.

[Endus]

On number 4. If you think the First Order doesn't know about escape crafts and wouldn't be checking the closest planet for survivors...

You know what? Fuck it. The people with decloaking scans aren't using them to check for survivors because they're fucking idiots.

The original plan was to get everyone to sneak off the ships, and then jump the ships one more jump. And then the First Order would have to be figuring out where in their flight plan they'd managed to escape. That's why they escaped here, with one more jump's worth of fuel remaining. Which was enough for Holdo to spin the cruiser around and buy the escape craft time, at the last minute.

As for the scanners, clearly they can't run those all the time, because reasons. There's a lot of that in Star Wars. Why is it only an issue in TLJ? They explain that this is the case. They wouldn't have had any reason to start looking until well after everyone was already on Crait.

This is all explained in the films. Seriously.

[PaladinSum]

The original plan was to get everyone to sneak off the ships, and then jump the ships one more jump. And then the First Order would have to be figuring out where in their flight plan they'd managed to escape.

As for the scanners, clearly they can't run those all the time, because reasons. There's a lot of that in Star Wars. Why is it only an issue in TLJ? They explain that this is the case. They wouldn't have had any reason to start looking until well after everyone was already on Crait.

This is all explained in the films. Seriously.

Leia clearly says the plan was to slip to Crait. Don't lie.

Also. "The final ship is destroyed. Scan for survivors". Fuck me sideways.

[Endus]

Leia clearly says the plan was to slip to Crait. Don't lie.

I never said it wasn't. The plan was to sneak to Crait and them jump the cruiser one last time. That's why they made this play with enough fuel left for one jump.

Also. "The final ship is destroyed. Scan for survivors". Fuck me sideways.

That wouldn't mean a scan for stealthed vessels. We don't know why scanning for stealth isn't an always-on thing. Maybe it's too much power draw for constant use. Maybe it needs to be much more targeted than regular scans. Maybe the bandwidth causes other problems. We don't know, but we do know that they can't always be scanning for stealth systems. Or they would.
If they'd jumped the cruiser one more time on automatic, they would've been nowhere near Crait at the time.

[Triceron]

Luke's arc, for instance, is not in any respect a subversion. It's the logical extension of Luke Skywalker, as seen in the OT. The farmboy who was in over his head and constantly tempted by the Dark Side. Who lost his final battle, I might add. Luke Skywalker wasn't the hero who saves the day, in Return of the Jedi. That was Vader. Luke's the walking maguffin that made Vader desire redemption, in that film.

Right, so let's assess this.

He was in over his head - But he learned his lessons the hard way. He became more confident in his actions, and despite still being reckless as he ever was, he was much more mature and recognized his responsibilities.

He lost his final battle - But he never gave up hope. The entire point was that he maintained hope in his father's redemption even if it meant his life. He pushed forward and would rather die than let evil corrupt him. He doesn't give into despair. He doesn't just turn around and walk away, and not because 'well it's too late'.

It doesn't matter that Luke did or didn't save the day, it matters that his hopefulness and optimism logically progressed in him having created a 'New Jedi Order', which probably wouldn't have happened if you're just going to imply that he lost his battle and wasn't very capable and was just a macguffin. Consider that in your explanation, the logical progression is more likely that he goes back to moisture farming or 'Sets sail to the West with the rest of the Elves'. He wouldn't carry on the Jedi way if he didn't have hope. And furthermore, it makes no sense that he would have given up hope on Ben Solo after just *one* bad situation. The Luke Skywalker we know wouldn't have given up and kept pursuing, resisted Snoke, or tried other methods to get things done. He's not Obi-Wan or Yoda, who went into hiding out of necessity. He's Luke Skywalker. And Luke going on a self-imposed exile because he can't cope with his feels isn't the Luke Skywalker that we know from the OT.

That subplot establishes a lot of worldbuilding and character development;
1> The Republic was corrupt and just as willing to engage in arms deals with nefarious people as any evil empire
2> Force sensitives outside of the canonical handful in the main cast still exist in the greater universe
3> Poe and Finn and Rose are way too eager to trust for some reason, and their hotheadedness gets nearly everyone in the Resistance killed
4> Without the casino subplot, Holdo's plan works, and the entire Resistance escapes to Crait, and the First Order loses them and doesn't know where they went.
5> Canto Bight is basically where Finn decides who he wants to be, between Rose and DJ pulling him in different directions. It's the first point he really starts trying to define who he is and who he wants to be.

The idea that the Canto Bight section is pointless really does not hold up.

Except it was pointless. All your points could have been done without amounting to nothing progressing within the main plot. All of that could be established through other means. It doesn't make sense in the context of a fleet slowly running out of fuel trying to escape while these few main characters are somehow able to escape and get back to the fleet while the First Order is completely unable to catch up to this fleet.

If we didn't have an over-arching main plot showing an escape-of-attrition scenario, I'd very much consider your points as being valid as character building and being central to bigger plans. Yet it doesn't make sense that they were able to leave to a completely different location, do a bunch of stuff, barely avoid getting captured, fail their mission, and still catch up with the main fleet. If we want the Canto Bight mission to be meaningful, then we need to resolve the escaping fleet in some way that would have their mission and their ability to come-and-go actually make sense.

The reason this entire subplot was inserted WAS to give Finn some characterization whereas he would have otherwise had zero relation to the rest of the film. And it shows how shoehorned this mission is considering it absolutely does NOT fit in with the theme of a fleet on its last legs trying to escape and being actively pursued throughout the film. It amounted to nothing if on top of this, the entire escapade could have been resolved if... Holdo simply told Poe the plans (or just amused him with hope/trust that she HAD a plan) rather than after he fucked things up.

You can see it as Poe learning a mistake and growing as a leader, or you could see it as Holdo being a complete fuckup for failing to clearly communicate with her subordinates and keep morale in check. I defer to the latter, because I empathized with Poe's frustrations and I see the conflict in the story as something EASILY resolved if he was thrown a bone. In fact, Poe is ABSOLUTELY SUPPORTIVE of the plan after he hears it. I don't understand why we're defending bad management.

And I may expect you to use 'Well she thought there was a mole' as a counter argument, but let's be clear that if that's the case in the movie, then it was not communicated to the audience that it would have been any motivating reason for her to have kept her secrecy. By all means of the story, she simply doesn't tell him because she thought he was an impatient, reckless hot-shot who should learn to stay in line. Basically spite.

If you go by 'Admirals don't need to tell Captains their plan' then it makes no sense that Poe wanting to know the plan should be met with bad communication that obviously leads into mutiny. Even if an Admiral position has all the right, story-wise we all empathize with Poe more than we do Holdo, and the audience can't build trust with an antagonizing higher-up that is refusing to communicate and is the direct cause for our main character to go against her orders. This is why it is frustrating when the story later tells you that 'yeah it's actually Poe's fault for being a dumbass and not listening to Holdo'. How are we supposed to empathize with Holdo, considering throughout the first half of the film we are given zero incentive to. This is not a 'plot twist', this is bad story telling. The audience needs to be given a substantial reason to trust Holdo's words, to understand she has a plan, and have the story establish that Poe is actually in the wrong; such as Poe hearing the plan, choosing to disagree, and carrying out the rest of that mission.

This is all explained in the films. Seriously.

Well if you want to go by 'explained in the films' logic, then the First Order could have literally rammed ships going Hyperspeed into the rest of the Resistance fleet instead of 'slowly' running them down.