How do you control a Toxic Community like World of Warcraft or most other MMOs have?

[Djaye]

you cant. its not a community problem, its a world problem. people are the most self entitled, ignorant, selfish and naive that they have ever been. that has simply transposed over to gaming communities. we have the largest groups of sheep to exist in history right now. no individual thought, only violent, herd, mob mentality.
we fight racism with racism here in 2020.

[NineSpine]

What is reality then if you're pointing something out that is not specific to this MMO and has an underlying rooted problem with anonymity and the internet in general?

Even with something like forums with heavy moderation, you can't get rid of toxicity. You can only address it. You can't really prevent it without heavy changes to the system like initiating Real ID and Permabans or some totalitarian system. That is reality you are talking about.

No, the reality is that there are dozens of other MMOs and the problem ranges from "Not nearly as bad as WoW" to "Not even a problem at all" depending on the game.

Your insistence that this is just the way things are is starting to sound like you've just never played another MMO so you assume they are all like this, but they aren't.

- - - Updated - - -

you cant. its not a community problem, its a world problem. people are the most self entitled, ignorant, selfish and naive that they have ever been. that has simply transposed over to gaming communities. we have the largest groups of sheep to exist in history right now. no individual thought, only violent, herd, mob mentality.
we fight racism with racism here in 2020.

Why do I get the feeling you get told all of your political opinions from a specific set of youtubers that I bet I can list out off the top of my head, yet you think everyone else is a sheep?

Other MMOs don't have this problem.

[Nobleshield]

Other MMOs don't have this problem.

This, I think, is the biggest thing. WoW is the only MMORPG with this level of toxicity and hostility against its own players. I've never seen another one with that level of problematic interactions, and I've played quite a few MMOs over the years.

[NineSpine]

This, I think, is the biggest thing. WoW is the only MMORPG with this level of toxicity and hostility against its own players. I've never seen another one with that level of problematic interactions, and I've played quite a few MMOs over the years.

You can really tell who here has played other MMOs and who has not. Even MMO adjacent games don't have this problem. Destiny 2, for example, has a lovely community. There's a whole organized subcommunity called sherpas who you can ask to carry you through content and teach you mechanics.

[Nurasu]

More difficulties are meaningless

I skipped almost all of BFA. Leveled, stopped playing, came back for 8.3. In less than two weeks of casual play after returning I was doing M+10. I ran zero heroics. I ran one M+0. I was already overgeared for almost any of the content added in my abscence. Nazjatar is pointless, mechagon is pointless, obviously the original BFA reps are pointless, heroics are pointless, LFR is pointless, normal is barely worth doing.

The game is offering me absolutely nothing except it is screaming at me to push into content that is above a difficulty level I should really be bothering with since I don't care about. It's making me play like an achiever. I don't want to play that way, because I'm simply not interested in changing my spec or talents away from the ones I find fun just because some random person doesn't like my choices. I don't expect that random person to change how they approach the game, they are welcome to expect optimization and min-maxing from everyone, but the game is putting me in a position of going into that guy's territory when I don't belong there.

So the solution for you as the explorer is to what? Add more Nazjatars and Mechagons for you to ignore? Nothing at all has changed in that regard since BC. This isn't some sort of new phenomenon of Modern WoW, the game has always been centered around instanced content.

Your original argument was that WoW is funneling all players into the same type of content, and then talk about you personally overgearing the leisure content, rendering it 'pointless'. It sounds like you're actually an achiever player who is looking to advance through content and power up, not just play what you like as you initially implied. There's more to do than ever before for people who actually just want to explore the game and aren't interested in running the gear treadmill with the "achievers".

None of this has anything to do with current WoW being more toxic than Vanilla WoW whatsoever.

- - - Updated - - -

You can really tell who here has played other MMOs and who has not. Even MMO adjacent games don't have this problem. Destiny 2, for example, has a lovely community. There's a whole organized subcommunity called sherpas who you can ask to carry you through content and teach you mechanics.

That's what the achievements discord largely does in WoW - they help people with things they wouldn't normally be able to accomplish, and it's not a small community.

[Triceron]

No, the reality is that there are dozens of other MMOs and the problem ranges from "Not nearly as bad as WoW" to "Not even a problem at all" depending on the game.

I've played many other MMO's and toxicity is no less a reality in most situations, if you play enough of any game you'll eventually find it.

Destiny 2 has a lovely community but a simple google search of 'Toxic community Destiny 2' could easily tell you otherwise. And this is a result of human behavior, simply said. It exists in all facets, and there are ways to avoid it given you are aware of the situation.

'Not nearly as bad as WoW' is completely subjective to the content you are actively choosing to do.

[arkanon]

it's rarerly ever as innocent as people pretend.. it's pretty much always just a barrage of insults at people for not playing to their standards. just look at a particular poster right here that can't make a single comment without using derogatory words against the people not playing his way.

Assuming their Gender - TOXIC

like if you're that good then why are you playing with pugs?

Questioning their ability and skill in game - TOXIC

- - - Updated - - -

they're basically the pve version of that guy in random bg's that spends the whole match complaining how everyone sucks.

Attacking those who want to win - TOXIC


This is the issue with this entire thread, and entire subject - what is and is not Toxic will differ greatly from one person to the next. Thats why Blizzard doesnt just swing the banhammer like some in here have suggested - me saying "hey dude, you should try Arms for this - the burst AOE is amazing on the adds" wouldnt be viewed as toxic by many, however, all it takes is one person to be mildly offended and boom - banned.

[Nurasu]

How many other MMO's do you actively say to be able to say this? I don't believe you when you say this because I see FF14 and it has its own host of toxicity issues just the same. I've played many other MMO's and toxicity is no less a reality in most situations, if you're hardcore enough into the game you'll eventually find it.

I personally think WoW allows you to do the most group content in the shortest amount of time. Since you can run so many dungeons or mythic keys or whatever, you're interacting with more players, and the bad experiences stand out in our minds much more than the good or neutral experiences. Leveling my alts through chain dungeons the past couple of months, a couple dicks immediately pop into my mind, but the literal 100s of other dungeon groups that didn't have anything bad happen totally fade from memory.

[NineSpine]

How many other MMO's do you actively say to be able to say this? I don't believe you when you say this because I see FF14 and it has its own host of toxicity issues just the same. I've played many other MMO's and toxicity is no less a reality in most situations, if you're hardcore enough into the game you'll eventually find it.

Man, you are soooooo close, sooooooooooooo close!

Yes, the toxic elements exist in the achiever-oriented areas of all MMOs, but which MMO presses all players to venture into those achiever-oriented areas? Hint: It's the one we are talking about.

[Nurasu]

Man, you are soooooo close, sooooooooooooo close!

Yes, the toxic elements exist in the achiever-oriented areas of all MMOs, but which MMO presses all players to venture into those achiever-oriented areas? Hint: It's the one we are talking about.

I think you don't like WoW, so you label it toxic. You flatly stated you ignored all non-achiever content this expansion.

[Black Goat]

damage meters are genuinely one of the worst things you can have in a MMO,as far as making the community worse goes

I think this sentiment is only shared by people who perform very poorly as a player.

In the NBA, if the lowest performing player in the league complained, "Well if they didn't track my stats, I'd have a ton of fans" I highly doubt there'd be any sympathy. Generally speaking, in things involving skill of any kind, people want to know they're performing well. I don't think that's a toxic thing.

I play games because I enjoy their gameplay and I enjoy being good at them. Damage meters confirm I'm doing well or areas where I need to learn to play better. I personally would hate a version of WoW with no metric to show me if I'm doing well or being deadweight to my raid/dungeon group.

As for "controlling" a toxic online community, you can't. The only thing you could possibly due is restrict or ban game access, which they already do, albeit on a somewhat lenient basis. But it's a terrible system. Example being, how 20 people in an AV can just decide, "Hey, let's get this dude banned, and let's all report him at once." How can that behavior be controlled adequately?

[Demeisen]

I personally think WoW allows you to do the most group content in the shortest amount of time. Since you can run so many dungeons or mythic keys or whatever, you're interacting with more players, and the bad experiences stand out in our minds much more than the good or neutral experiences. Leveling my alts through chain dungeons the past couple of months, a couple dicks immediately pop into my mind, but the literal 100s of other dungeon groups that didn't have anything bad happen totally fade from memory.

It's the convenience of grouping, and the introduction of systems like M+. Pushing keys has a failure state, which is fairly unique for repeatable group content in MMOs. In FFXIV, the roulettes are tuned such that you will almost always be able to successfully complete a (non-extreme/savage) trial or dungeon - there isn't a realistic failure state. For harder content, such as savages or extremes, there is still a significant amount of toxicity in pugs, just as there is in WoW. If you put M+ in FFXIV, I guarantee that things will become considerably more toxic in short order.

[NineSpine]

So the solution for you as the explorer is to what? Add more Nazjatars and Mechagons for you to ignore? Nothing at all has changed in that regard since BC. This isn't some sort of new phenomenon of Modern WoW, the game has always been centered around instanced content.

What a weird strawman. What does this have to do with instanced versus non-instanced content? Are you skimming and responding or actually engaging with what I posted?

Your original argument was that WoW is funneling all players into the same type of content, and then talk about you personally overgearing the leisure content, rendering it 'pointless'. It sounds like you're actually an achiever player who is looking to advance through content and power up, not just play what you like as you initially implied. There's more to do than ever before for people who actually just want to explore the game and aren't interested in running the gear treadmill with the "achievers".

Everyone, regardless of whether they are an achiever, wants their character to progress and plays to some degree in accordance with that. Do I really need to explain to you how "Oh, you spent 15 minutes doing this, well here's everything you need to drop this and go do the next thing" isn't great design for an MMO? Not being an achiever isn't about ignoring progression entirely. For example, you can't say to someone "Oh you like crafting? You think that's cool? Well the gear from crafting is absolutely useless and pointless, but if you like crafting that shouldn't matter!"

None of this has anything to do with current WoW being more toxic than Vanilla WoW whatsoever.

Cool.

That's what the achievements discord largely does in WoW - they help people with things they wouldn't normally be able to accomplish, and it's not a small community.

Carrying people through group achievements isn't the same thing as teaching people content so that they can do it themselves.

[Triceron]

Man, you are soooooo close, sooooooooooooo close!

Yes, the toxic elements exist in the achiever-oriented areas of all MMOs, but which MMO presses all players to venture into those achiever-oriented areas? Hint: It's the one we are talking about.

But you are equating that as being toxic. And that is simply not true, you are just using it as an excuse to label it as toxic.

You are talking about something that is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the toxicity that the OP is talking about. You know this, right?

[NineSpine]

I think you don't like WoW, so you label it toxic. You flatly stated you ignored all non-achiever content this expansion.

You mean I felt disincentivized from doing content that the game outgeared me for within a few hours of returning to the game? That's your big argument? That I wasn't interested in doing content that rewards me nothing of value? Good point?

[Echocho]

Assuming their Gender - TOXIC


Questioning their ability and skill in game - TOXIC

- - - Updated - - -



Attacking those who want to win - TOXIC


This is the issue with this entire thread, and entire subject - what is and is not Toxic will differ greatly from one person to the next. Thats why Blizzard doesnt just swing the banhammer like some in here have suggested - me saying "hey dude, you should try Arms for this - the burst AOE is amazing on the adds" wouldnt be viewed as toxic by many, however, all it takes is one person to be mildly offended and boom - banned.

It often has to do with how you say it. If you say "switch to arms retard, your aoe is garbage" instead it's now toxic instead of helpful.

[NineSpine]

But you are equating that as being toxic. And that is simply not true, you are just using it as an excuse to label it as toxic.

You are talking about something that is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the toxicity that the OP is talking about. You know this, right?

Two bullies fighting each other is their own problem. I'm concerned about toxicity when the bullies are targeting other people.

[Triceron]

Two bullies fighting each other is their own problem. I'm concerned about toxicity when the bullies are targeting other people.

So what is your solution? I don't believe you have one, you are simply pointing out something to complain about and blaming the system.

We both know the system can not remove the bullies. It's not designed to remove bullies, nor should it be designed to. Bullying is ultimately human behaviour.

And no, it is not tied to achievement oriented behaviour. Games like Monster Hunter have achievement oriented goals too but have MUCH less toxicity than any game of its like. Consider that the culture of gaming has a big impact on how behaviour is approached too.

Generally you'll never see Japanese gamers be toxic because it's built into their culture to be helpful to one another. So a game like FF14 Japanese servers are much less toxic than say US or Russian servers. Same game, same systems, different communities. Nothing to do with the game itself being 'achiever oriented'.

[Nurasu]

You mean I felt disincentivized from doing content that the game outgeared me for within a few hours of returning to the game? That's your big argument? That I wasn't interested in doing content that rewards me nothing of value? Good point?

They provided catch up gear at the time they were implemented and were part of gearing up for non-raiders, just as Visions and assaults are now. Your idea of an "explorer" as someone who doesn't actually care what content they are doing and not someone who wants to experience story and level reputations is pretty nonsensical to be honest, so I apologize for not understanding you meant "slower achiever" and "regular achiever". You're not forced to gear up in any instanced content right now if you don't want to and still achieve personal progression. You're not forced into M15s to personally progress, and the likelihood you'll encounter much toxicity is much much lower while running an M+0 or a world boss.

By your metric, at some point, both your slow achiever "explorer" and regular achiever are going to be in the same content if the slower achiever is constantly progressing. It's unavoidable and not at all unique to WoW.

[NineSpine]

So what is your solution? I don't believe you have one, you are simply pointing out something to complain about and blaming the system.

We both know the system can not remove the bullies. It's not designed to remove bullies, nor should it be designed to. Bullying is ultimately human behaviour.

And no, it is not tied to achievement oriented behaviour. Games like Monster Hunter have achievement oriented goals too but have MUCH less toxicity than any game of its like. Consider that the culture of gaming has a big impact on how behaviour is approached too.

Generally you'll never see Japanese gamers be toxic because it's built into their culture to be helpful to one another. So a game like FF14 Japanese servers are much less toxic than say US or Russian servers. Same game, same systems, different communities. Nothing to do with the game itself being 'achiever oriented'.

I've detailed my solutions repeatedly in multi-paragraph responses, so I'm not going to dignify your weird assertion by repeating myself.