Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Aggrophobic]

Gearscore was terrible for the community for multiple reasons back in Wrath. Specifically, it made a divide in the player base that was unnecessary and promoted elitism.

We are witnessing Gearscore 2.0 with Raider.IO. While yes, it is helpful to have so you choose people who have the relative experience to what you key you are looking to push, it also diminishes the value of the player experience as a whole. We tend to choose players who have higher IO's than others, we choose players who are playing "meta" specs over others who may have a higher IO, but they are playing a Shadow priest. So, they are not chosen for the DPS spot.

We as a community have failed one another once again. I hope that Blizzard will step in at some point and remove Raider IO as a whole just as they did with Gearscore. Or, Blizzard will incorporate their own version of this addon into the game itself.

No, it doesn't "need to go". Don't like it? Don't use it.
I don't want you in my goups and raider.io helps me avoid you.

[Bloodyleech]

People shitting on Rio are as worse as people using Rio in a wrong way.
Lets compare this to raids: do you go right into Mythic without stepping foot into normal or heroic? You can easily skip LFR (first few m+ levels).
If you go up the m+ ladder, you'll automatically get the needed EXPERIENCE for doing higher dungeons.
No one wants people in Mythic raids without experience from heroic.
Why should people take you into 15s without any experience at all? One single person can lead to a failed key.
All Rio does is showing people your experience with this content. Ofc I'll take someone with some experience over someone with no experience at all.
In addition it can show if you are even able to beat these keys. Boosting is not as common as you think - having someone with full 15s done is mostly a good indicator if someone is good enough (experience, healing, dps and/or tanking).

Rio, used in right ways, is a strong tool. It's just sad that there are people using and understanding it wrong.

[Ezyah]

Are you suggesting that because you want to be taken into a +20 without grinding your score like everyone else ?

[Echeyakee]

Rio has it's good moments as well. For example I never invite anyone over 3k score, as they are more likely to be an ass than a decent human being. Hell, the furhter their score goes from ~2k the less likely I am to even consider them.

[Wuusah]

The entitlement is unreal. "Raider.io needs to go because people don't invite me to groups" is such an entitled attitude...

Here are some facts:
1. nobody cares who you are in pug groups. Nobody has to play with you.
2. If you don't get invited to groups, then make your own groups. You also have a key. Let's see what your standards will be when 20 dps ask to be invited.
3. find friends and/or guildmates and go with them. It's really not that difficult to find like-minded people. You just have to go out of your shell.
4. raider.io is a great tool to see how much experience a player should have. It's not just a number. It also shows what the highest key of that dungeon has been cleared. So if you are going for +10 or higher and see a player who has no experience with +10s, then you know that this player might not know how the pillars work, for example.

raider.io is not just a gearscore in new. r.io puts a score on player performance, not just on items. Just yesterday I was doing a +15 where a rogue who was easily 470-475 with multiple corruptions (gushing, tentacle, etc) and he struggled hard to reach 30k dps. His r.io was way too low but it was his key and I needed a +15 for the week, so I joined. his r.io perfectly showed that he was not ready for +15s (under 1k). He was easily overequipped from an ilvl perspective. But ilvl doesn't mean shit. He played bad, like really bad. Stood in all kinds of aoe, did barely any dps. Didn't understand his rotation, didn't know the dungeon well. This all was reflected in his r.io score. That's why r.io is a good tool. I would've never joined a +15 where a player is under 1k. That's just a shitshow.

Obviously r.io is not perfect. People could just buy boosts and get a high score that way. But that's everywhere the case. People can buy mythic raid progress, they can buy arena gladiator. Still, it's better to have r.io with a small portion of the playerbase being "wrongly" evaluated, than to not have evaluation at all.

[Dioporco]

Gearscore was terrible for the community for multiple reasons back in Wrath. Specifically, it made a divide in the player base that was unnecessary and promoted elitism.

We are witnessing Gearscore 2.0 with Raider.IO. While yes, it is helpful to have so you choose people who have the relative experience to what you key you are looking to push, it also diminishes the value of the player experience as a whole. We tend to choose players who have higher IO's than others, we choose players who are playing "meta" specs over others who may have a higher IO, but they are playing a Shadow priest. So, they are not chosen for the DPS spot.

We as a community have failed one another once again. I hope that Blizzard will step in at some point and remove Raider IO as a whole just as they did with Gearscore. Or, Blizzard will incorporate their own version of this addon into the game itself.

No matter what, majority will always find a way to optimize the game.

[BraveNewWorld]

we choose players who are playing "meta" specs over others who may have a higher IO, but they are playing a Shadow priest. So, they are not chosen for the DPS spot.

At equal IO, I will always take the shadowpriest over a BM hunter. I actually require a 2.1+ BFA PvP achieve for BM hunters (I'm 4k io atm). If they got that, means there's a good chance they're good at their class, and not just carried by Severe corruption.

[Mardux]

You missed 1 group. The group that wants everything handed to them with their demands and if you dont agree with them, they will make a similar thread to this 1 where the person feels like r.io is ruining the game experience for them. When in reality they are just too lazy to put their own group together or take time to look for likeminded people to do whatever they want to do. This is also why master loot was removed. Its the same people. Too lazy to open their mouth before,during or after the raid/dungeon that they wanted personal loot etc and the funny thing is those people are usually the ones that put in zero effort, the dps that you have to scroll down in your damage meter to find them or tanks/healers that have no clue what they are doing.

They were to busy putting others beneath them that they "forgot" another group as well. The people who want to win with like-minded and similarly skilled people. Their only groups were "we dont care" and "I'm better than you".

Its extremely easy to tell which group they fall in considering they obviously care or wouldnt have that bs post.

- - - Updated - - -

At equal IO, I will always take the shadowpriest over a BM hunter. I actually require a 2.1+ BFA PvP achieve for BM hunters (I'm 4k io atm). If they got that, means there's a good chance they're good at their class, and not just carried by Severe corruption.

Yeah... ok. If you repeat that enough, maybe someone somewhere will actually believe it.

[Lubefist]

I work as a chef and I have worked in absolute shitholes to build up my resume to get where I am now which is a nice restaurant. Now should restaurant owners stop asking for CV at job interviews so freshly graduated people can get to high end restaurants because somehow it's fair in their heads, to mess shit up because they lack the experience and don't know what they're doing? Yeah, thought not.

[Trend]

At equal IO, I will always take the shadowpriest over a BM hunter. I actually require a 2.1+ BFA PvP achieve for BM hunters (I'm 4k io atm). If they got that, means there's a good chance they're good at their class, and not just carried by Severe corruption.

EVERY dps spec is carried by corruption. BM is mixed severe/expedient with a very little masterful. Spriest is even more severe with a few expedient. Interesting that you don't know these things if you're 4k, but I guess 4k isn't that hard now if you have the right friends. You don't have to think or know specs and what they do.

Where you are correct is that there are many players much worse than their IO would indicate. However that is not unique to BM hunters.

[Aeriedk]

Players will always find some sort of metric to use. Gearscore...raider.io...etc...etc...etc. They will always find something. Pre-raider it was ilvl and achievements right?

[Dropakeg]

Raider.io is like a credit score. Banks don't care how good you are at paying bills today if you've never had credit or proven your ability to borrow responsibly. And it can be hard to get started, unless you have money to set aside or someone more established to help out.

It's just reality - no one wants to risk losing money, just like they don't want to risk wasting hours with someone unskilled in a dungeon.

Like anything else in life, there are always barriers to entry, and you may have to put in the hard work of doing lower keys or *gasp* forming your owns groups to get your io to where it's no longer an issue.

[Delano]

Ah yes, credit score, something literally so poorly designed it goes down every time you CHECK WHAT IT CURRENTLY IS. Definitely worth modelling game systems around

[Trend]

Ah yes, credit score, something literally so poorly designed it goes down every time you CHECK WHAT IT CURRENTLY IS. Definitely worth modelling game systems around

From Experian:

Anytime your credit is checked, an inquiry is noted on your credit report. ... Checking your own credit score is considered a soft inquiry and won't affect your credit. There are other types of soft inquiries that also don't affect your credit score, and several types of hard inquiries that might.

If your score is going down it's not because you're checking it. There are some good free tools to help you monitor.

[Teroch]

To clarify - without paying gold I only get to run 2-3 M+ runs a week, my Raider.IO scores is lower specifically because I don't run as many runs as some programmer at Raider.IO thinks I should.

If I paid gold to run 10 or more M+ runs a week, without getting ANY better at running M+, whilst maintaining the same maximum key level - my Raider IO score would go up.

In that sense - my score for a given skill level is dependent on how much gold I spend.

Your posts have made a few things abundantly clear. One, you don't understand the system you're criticizing, how it works, or what its actual purpose is. Thinking you could get a higher io just by magically paying for 10 runs a week, which isn't how r.io works, or thinking that even people who buy keys buy 10 runs per week, which they don't, it would be astronomically expensive as that's well over 1m per week, well... it's just absurd. Two, you blame a lack of tanks and heals or the existence of raider.io for your inability to get into m+ even within your own guild. You seem to think that if the system did not exist, you would get invited to more groups, and that there's no way it could be your fault you're not invited to more keys. Three, you feel that you should be invited to m+ despite evidence to the contrary. You have been unable to find a group of friends to run m+ with, either because you have not tried, or because they're not adding you, which would eliminate your raider.io "problem," but this is somehow because of raider.io in the first place. Your guild takes you to 2-3 keys per week at most, but that's due to a lack of healers and tanks, not due to a lack of skill or effort on your part.

I'm going to guess that the keys your guild brings you to are when they ask "Does anyone need their 15 for the week." I'm also going to guess that the group that takes you through m+ from your guild looks largely the same week after week, even containing some familiar dps faces. Now, if those dps are going to more keys than you, but you're online just as much and have expressed the same desire to do keys, but you only get 2-3 tossed your way each week, is that raider.io's fault? They're your guild mates, so they're not checking your io. You see familiar dps in keys all the time, but how are those dps getting to go when there's a lack of healers and tanks?

I'm not going to ask you to link your io, but you know the answer, and you'd rather blame a system or other players than admit it even to yourself. Hard truth is it's either skill or effort, and both of those are fixable, but only you can fix it and raider.io existing or not existing has nothing to do with either problem.

[RobertMugabe]

Raider.IO is basically arena rating, but just for M+ and it's amazing.

I just have the feeling that most of its haters just don't get how it works and think they're entitled to something.

Just keep 2 things in minds:
1. You can't start off immediately with a high key dungeon where the drops are all upgrades for you. You have to start small and build your score up this way. Not only will you get a score, but you will also actually learn how to do these dungeons (which is the entire point of having a score). Just because you've gotten to ilvl465 through other types of content, it doesn't mean that you're suddenly qualified to do +10-15 keys. I've seen a fair bit of people who have a high ilvl and then have absolutely no idea what to do and we fail the key because of them.

2. You are not the only person applying to a group. Competition exists and ofc any sane person will pick someone more qualified, hence why you should start low and build your score up.

All in all, stop being ignorant and think that you're better than everyone else. The "elitists" aren't the people who declined you, but the elitist is you who thinks he's entitled to joining someone's +15 key, even though you have never done a +5 key. If you're good, then prove it first.

[Smallfruitbat]

I actually think .io is one of the less toxic 'rating' systems.

I've just changed guilds and didn't realise how little M+ experience the players had, mainly due to the fact they were running heroic Nya. If you can clear a heroic raid, you should at least be able to run a +10? No, not at all. It was an instant frustration that most didn't understand why the boss was much harder this week than last week and why on bursting you can't go crazy with aoe.

Some of the scores these guys had didn't reflect their ability/experience. We're a small server, so they got a bump simply by brute forcing keys. There was also an element of carrying that appeared to have gone on. One of the guys who joined with me is an extremely experienced monk and plays all 3 roles exceptionally, as soon as he wasn't around to talk them through stuff they were useless. We've worked on it over the months and have caught up.

In the same way people don't read logs properly, unless you really drill into individual runs of IO, it's easy to come up with a false picture of someones competency. I've seen people with higher IO keys than me wreck my key due to incompetence. There is no perfect system but this one at least ticks a good proportion of boxes.

[Wuusah]

People who think r.io is toxic fall into these categories:

1. they are bad, know they are bad and feel entitled to a carry from other players because that's how they always played their MMO previously. Just having fun with the boys in a dungeon group like in the good old times. Except that those boys are random players and the dungeon is on a timer and at a higher difficulty than they are used to.

2. they are bad but think they are good. The "ELO hell" argument. Other people are at fault, the system is at fault. Everyone and everything is at fault for their current situation, except they themselves. If it wasn't for r.io then they would get invited into so many more groups (and deplete their keys)...

3. no matter if they are good or bad, they simply don't understand what r.io is and instead of googling for an explanation they just make assumptions.

[munkeyinorbit]

From Experian:



If your score is going down it's not because you're checking it. There are some good free tools to help you monitor.

That's not always true. A lot of soft checks may indicate suspicious behaviour. If you go around town getting credit checks then that raises a flag and is noted. Do it too much and it affects your score negatively. It may also indicate fraud. I actually played vanilla so I know what I am talking about.

[Zenfoldor]

It doesn't matter how good one is. How good their problem solving, dexterity(ability to precisely control their character as if it were second nature), leadership skills, charisma, gear score, intelligence, or research ability is. If they have not directly experienced the exact mechanics in that mythic+, then there will be a learning phase that may even lead to a wipe. Mythic+ is timed, and thus learning phases in high stakes content is unacceptable. That is why a tool like r.io, based on direct experience with these mechanics, has become ubiquitous.

Ubiquitous addons should be baked into the game, before they begin to have unintended consequences. There are exceptions to this, but I believe gearscore to item level is the perfect example of why baking it in is a good idea. If nothing else, having a group finder with the ability to filter by item level, is good. Imagine if you could also filter by r.io parameters. Those who don't qualify would never see your group and thus would not be rejected, reducing rejections. Those creating a group would have more precise tools to curate their pool of applicants.

Moreso, if blizzard created their own r.io in game, they could then reference the tools in game through quests and teach all players how to use it. They could even encourage content that would improve said score, with in game quests. This would not only train people how to use the most important user rating system in the game, it would also give access to it, to all players(even those who don't use addons), and open up interesting paths where Blizzard could actively incentivize doing non-matchmade content, and teach players how to get better at it if they wanted to do so. It appears to be one of the very few motivational paths that could successfully flip players from matchmade content over to mythic+ or even raiding.