Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[CylomDashti]

Just remove the total score, I only do mech workshop on my mage and nobody wants me in their 15+ workshop group cause my score is not 2k, when I've 476 ilvl and have done it 20+ times already cause I have 200ish score. hell, even +13s won't take me most of the time.

I could spend an entire day just queuing and not get accepted. and If I get lucky with a workshop +15/16 key, nobody wants to join and I get "Looking for a free boost eh?" whispers.

Blizz could remove the key depletion as well, or have it only keys that are +16+ that get depleted if they really want to keep the mechanic.
What kills me more than not getting invited, is when people join and break my key just for the lulz.

[callipygoustp]

Still not seeing what the problem is. Raider.io is working just fine for me.

[ID811717]

R.Io should step up:
-make it a log-analyzer tool like Details
-the community shall define what earns good points and what earns bad points
-it can even play with our dopamine reward system with flashy achievements and the like, players love that

I have previously supported them on Patreon. Will you?

You can also join their discord server to provide feedback and suggestions. I have done it before. Even though they seem to have a really small team, most of the times they go out of their way to respond and engage (my experience with that is mostly from 1-3 years ago, so I don't know if anything changed).

[ydraw]

Still not seeing what the problem is. Raider.io is working just fine for me.

Like I said earlier the real issue with raider.io is the way the total score is calculated, with lazy players looking at total score only. It really shouldn't be relevant that your highest Shrine Of Storm key is + 12 but you've done +17 Temple of seth 12 times when you're applying for a temple of seth key. There are good reasons for preferring certain dungeons (loot drops being the main one).

[4dahorde]

When I want to join or form a group for M+, I want to spend MY game time playing like I want to as much as possible. I don't want some new, under geared player trying to join my +20. Sure, i could look up EVERY single person on the armory....or I could look at number that corresponds to thatg person estimated skill level and do it quicker.

Raider IO is a good tool, and removing it will NOT help new, under geared people into groups. The result will be the same, outside of it taking them longer to decline you while they look you up anyway.

When will you people learn that if you suck, people don't want you in their groups, regardless of the method people use to determine that.

[callipygoustp]

Like I said earlier the real issue with raider.io is the way the total score is calculated, with lazy players looking at total score only. It really shouldn't be relevant that your highest Shrine Of Storm key is + 12 but you've done +17 Temple of seth 12 times when you're applying for a temple of seth key. There are good reasons for preferring certain dungeons (loot drops being the main one).

You can keep making up "issues". Doesn't make them valid or true. What is valid and true: raider.io is working just fine as proven by the multitude of players using it, effectively, day to day.

[Niwes]

There are some games today that ban Damage meters and have huge populations.. FFXIV. They have one that you can run outside of game but its a bannable offense if you are caught so no one talks about it and no way in hell do you call anyone out in game for low dps. They have content that is as hard if not harder than WoW content and they manage to kill bosses. So do use the, players have to have it to kill bosses, it doesn't hold water.

I played Everquest for many years and we somehow manage to kill bosses without DPS meters and without voice chat..

DPS meters and Raider.io are nothing more than a way to judge players. Nothing makes a mediocre player feel better about himself/herself more than outdoing someone on the meters.

What makes it even funnier, is that those same mediocre players ALWAYS migrate to whatever the Meta class of that expansion is. For SL, you are going to see more Warlocks than ever, because they are the new Meta class.

seriously: if i would have not other reasons to not play these games i would go there instantly for myself. the fact alone, that they piss on dps meters, that helps them selling i.e. tokens, because Johny16 also wanna be king on Recount and needs paid runs fast, makes these games and their companies miles more sympathic to me than Actvis$$ion Blizzgreed. sadly i do not like them for other reasons.

that said, i think it gettin clear now, where the sarcasm in my first statment, you quoted, was lying.

[Kaver]

Like I said earlier the real issue with raider.io is the way the total score is calculated, with lazy players looking at total score only. It really shouldn't be relevant that your highest Shrine Of Storm key is + 12 but you've done +17 Temple of seth 12 times when you're applying for a temple of seth key. There are good reasons for preferring certain dungeons (loot drops being the main one).

What if I'm looking for Players who like to push M+ no matter what dungeon it is and don't care much about loot?

Also, I think it's pretty lazy that someone isn't willing to complete all the dungeons just ONE time at a decent level. I takes 30 min to run a Shrine of Storm.

[Ealyssa]

Gearscore was terrible for the community for multiple reasons back in Wrath. Specifically, it made a divide in the player base that was unnecessary and promoted elitism.

"My score is too low for the high groups I want to play with, thus RIO is bad" the thread, again, and again, and again.

While yes, it is helpful to have so you choose people who have the relative experience to what you key you are looking to push, it also diminishes the value of the player experience as a whole.

That makes no sense BTW. It either promote experience or it doesn't. In fact it does. Period.

RIO is here to stay, because a matchmaking system factoring skill level is mandatory for any challenging content. Expecting random luck of inviting 4 other people you don't know to work on a +18 is of the utmost stupidity.

Is RIO perfect ? Nope.
Is the PVE mentality globally garbage ? Yup, but always was, even before RIO.
Is RIO better than random luck when inviting people for a MM+ ? HUR DUR

The ONLY way you could play wow without RIO is if it was a super niche game with 85%+ of the playerbase being really good at it.
But in fact 70% of players are retards doing less DPS than the healer of your group.

[ydraw]

You can keep making up "issues". Doesn't make them valid or true. What is valid and true: raider.io is working just fine as proven by the multitude of players using it, effectively, day to day.

Working just fine doesn't mean it's perfect and there is no room for improvement.

[W1shm4ster]

You can keep making up "issues". Doesn't make them valid or true. What is valid and true: raider.io is working just fine as proven by the multitude of players using it, effectively, day to day.

You know, people use it cause some started using it and then those people started using it and so on. It is peer pressure in a sense.

[Twdft]

You know, people use it cause some started using it and then those people started using it and so on. It is peer pressure in a sense.

This is about 12 seconds after I put the group up, if I go make a coffee and look at it 2 minutes later it will have about two dozen applicants.

Let's assume I don't want to use raider.io, how do you propose I choose whom to invite?

[Tyris Flare]

You should obviously invite the person with the worst gear and least experience as a charitable person who does not at all value your free time!


But seriously, I understand why people can be upset about it, but removing the tool isn't going to fix anything. Players with similar mentalities are always going to want to play together. If I list our group in queue to snag a quick dps, I'm going to get flooded with qualified applicants instantly. Why would anyone choose someone with a terrible score and minimal key runs in that scenario?

This is the equivalent of wanting a company to hire every person who applied without looking at their resume or doing a background check.

[pathebaker]

I have played off-meta specs in M+. It’s not that hard to find a group. You just need to keep trying. Most people don’t really care that much about the meta in that key level range. People care about experience above all.

What is the difference between applying 10 times and being rejected 9 times, and applying one time and getting a tank after 30 minutes of waiting? You will wait a similar amount of time but your dungeon group quality will drop significantly with a queue. It would be foolish to believe otherwise.
People should get over their fear of rejection.

But its not about the fear of being rejected it's about Actually being rejected. This wouldn't be a talking point with a threads pages long on different forums everywhere if it wasn't an issue at all. theirs a part of the game where people want to play but cant because people tell them they can't. If you queue for a heroic it dosent take 30 mins to get in whether you are dps healer,tank. The thing about queuing is that it takes the choice away from the other players though. you don't get denied because your playing a spec that someone dosent like. the problem with the current system is literally everyone who plays it right now "judges the book by the cover" they look at the front they look at the title they go i don't like this and they put it back on the shelf without giving it a second thought when in fact the book could be on the best sellers list as a must read.

The thing is that threads like these pop up all the time which i assume must make it an issue. the "weird kids on the playground" are getting picked last or not at all to play ball with the rest of the kids and its not okay. Saying that people don't care about what class you play, again it wouldn't constantly be a talking point if it wasn't an issue

Taking friends and guilds out of it again.

at no point am i saying that everyone shouldn't have to grind to get there. i do still think you have to complete multiple dungeons to and do the same dungeons over and over to get to the +15. i am not elitest and i don't believe in skipping my way to the top. i do believe however that everyone should get a chance to play and taking away player choice in that regard considering us as a community (and taking in account how overally toxic we must be) in most cases i do believe blizzard should step in and fix that issue.

no one knows the exact numbers except blizzard but there must be a great portion of people that just don't get to do mythic+ on something on a weekly basis. eliminating the "player wall factor" would basically eliminate the whole problem letting people grind the system as long as they want to get as good as they want too to get the shiny reward at the end of the week.

I think queuing is the easiest fix but if someone has a better fix go for it. all we know for sure is that theirs people that don't get to play and people that do. advocating for the current system and JuST MAkE yOUr oWN GrOUp is not a fix to the problem.

[W1shm4ster]

This is about 12 seconds after I put the group up, if I go make a coffee and look at it 2 minutes later it will have about two dozen applicants.

Let's assume I don't want to use raider.io, how do you propose I choose whom to invite?

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/TaQzTZQ.jpg[/IG]

That isn't a hard question, you do it like the people of old: look at ilvl, class and perhaps if you want russians or not (sry, but russians are literally a gamble). Also, if you are nice enough, you invite those that probably go in there for the 2h weapon.

Im not a fan of raider io, never will be, do i use it? Yes.

But i don't say you shouldn't use it, i can understand why people want to get people with experience. Tho, this in my experience often ends up in people, like someone mentioned above, not even getting the chance to get into +15s. Over time the score people want even increase and sometimes it increases simply for the affix of the week being shit, in this particular dungeon or in general.

I don't have a great solution for other ways to let you decide if this person is good enough or not and i surely wouldn't advice looking up potential logs for said person, since most just look at your ranking and thats it.


Edit: Also it is easier to have a DPS that doesn't know it all too well, than a tank or heal. In that regard people look even harder on what they're inviting, it is easier to carry a DPS.

On another note, here is an example why i dislike raider.io: Im a mythic progress raider, cleared it all, am good enough in PVP too, but my m+ score isn't super high, because i do maybe one key in the week and thats it and sometimes it might even be the same dungeon. I will struggle simply by that shitty number some random addon gives me. But on the other hand people can see what my raiding experience is on this character, so you could also assume he should be able to adapt, dodge stuff properly and the damage should be there too right? Doesn't matter tho, you will get declined, because your little number isn't high enough for their standart.

Besides, people might make an exception on your little number if you are a hunter or DH with good ilvl, because they're broken and provide a debuff in the DHs case that is wanted.

[melodramocracy]

This is the equivalent of wanting a company to hire every person who applied without looking at their resume or doing a background check.

I keep forgetting there are legal and financial ramifications to not checking IO score before a dungeon.

Seriously, this might be the worst analogy on the internet this month.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Pretty sure blizzard will purposely break the raider IO addon just like gearscore addon if i remembered correctly.

they made it baselane it called ilvl now lol... you know the numbers you see on the dungeon tool

[brettcb]

I keep forgetting there are legal and financial ramifications to not checking IO score before a dungeon.

Seriously, this might be the worst analogy on the internet this month.

Agreed - this argument is stale. Is Raider.io perfect? Nope.

The tool gives you a snapshot of an individuals experience and Dungeon knowledge based on historical data. Is this a good approach most of the time? I’d argue yes.

Someone who has done a higher quantity of runs at higher key level has a known Skill floor.

Where the tool has issues is defining the qualitative factor of player skill. Quantity vs. Quality is difficult to identify with small sample sizes.

Which leaves us with one simple answer - run more dungeons (Even if they are lower than you consider optimal). This has a net effect of raising your IO and providing a large sample size even if you refuse to use the tool.

In closing - choosing meta classes is a different conversation that has nothing to do with Raider.io. This bias is a result of streamers/MDI/Etc.

[Tyris Flare]

I keep forgetting there are legal and financial ramifications to not checking IO score before a dungeon.

Seriously, this might be the worst analogy on the internet this month.

I mean, pick any example you want, like recruiting for a sports team or something.

The point is that some amount of credential-ism in a shared competitive environment is inevitable. Outside of old Sandler movies, minor league hockey teams aren't taking beer league players, either.

[callipygoustp]

Working just fine doesn't mean it's perfect and there is no room for improvement.

Never said, or implied, that it is perfect. Certainly always room for improvement.

However, conversely, people nitpick at very minor inconsequential details as if the tool isn't effective. The tool is effective.

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You know, people use it cause some started using it and then those people started using it and so on. It is peer pressure in a sense.

No, what I know is that people use it, people like me, because its effective.