I thought we left the mindset that raiding is better than everything else back in WoD

[Khallid]

Assuming that the raiders also do M+ which means they are doing more content than people who only do M+.

Hard to say. Progressing raid bosses takes more time than running dungeons, but farming raid bosses is much faster than running dungeons. So the more bosses the raiders can kill the more efficient it becomes for them.

And I would assume most raiding guilds will still do 1 dungeon per week (like we already do) since that's the most efficient thing to do. If you're in a raiding guild, finding people to do a dungeon quick and is easy. But if you only do dungeons, finding people to kill raid bosses is not as easy or quick. So it still seems to me that the raiders are at an advantage.

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Do we know what ilvl a heroic raider will get in the weekly chest in the raid bracket? I’m not sure they will be able to pick mythic level gear in that bracket. Meanwhile in the M+ bracket of the weekly chest you get mythic level gear just by completing a +14 key.

As far as I know, heroic raid bosses drop heroic loot from the cache, and mythic raid bosses drop mythic loot from the cache.

But comparing it to a 14 is not so clear-cut just yet. This is the start of a new expansion, not the current level of 14s in BfA. You probably won't be able to do 14s without appropriate gear to also kill some mythic bosses. Realistically, it would make sense for M+ to be a bit easier than the mythic raid early on. But raiders can do M+, they are not at a disadvantage anyway.

[arkanon]

Mythic plus is infinite
raiding is not
mythic plus therefore should not be equal, or even better then raiding.

if you could get infinite loot from raiding sure.


Imagine if you used this same argument for world quests.

Agree 100% Im totally fine with people spamming their M+ endlessly for loot, no problem at all. But having the loot be equal or better than raid loot is the equivalent of TBC heroics being repeatable and dropping raid loot or better.

I believe loot should be matched with the difficulty and time commitment of the content, as well as the repeatability. Something that is very difficult, requires a strong commitment, and is not spammable should reward high quality loot. Something that is easy, can be done solo, and is spammable should not.

And everything in between. Something like the Mage Tower got it right imo; It was quite difficult, but could be played solo (had to be) so low commitment, and although spammable while active, it was not endlessly spammable at any time. The loot matched that - great unique transmog items.

If raid bosses could just be endlessly spammed like M+ can, then it would be fine for them to be close, but even then, i personally dont think a +15 is equal in difficulty to a mythic raid boss.

[Kokolums]

How is SL raid or die?

Because you can't spam m+ for the best gear?

You CAN spam M+ for gear in SL. The change is that end-of-run chest drops ONLY 1 item. That means LOOT FUNNELS will be the thing to buy to gear up quickly. That means buying lots of WoW tokens to pay for loot funnels to gear up to raid. SL is more pay-to-win than BfA. On the flipside, you will SELLING lots of loot funnels to make money.

$$$$$$$$$

[Gasparde]

It's becoming more and more transparent that we absolutely need items to come with exclusive boni based on the content they're from.

Every content drops items from lvl 100-150. The hardest mythic raid boss drops 150, the hardest m+ keys drop 150, X pvp rating drops 150.
If you drop a piece in PvP it comes with a 10% more effective in PvP modifier. If you get one from raids, 10% more effective in raids modifier. 10% more effective in m+ on m+ gear.

Yes, this will lead to people carrying around more than 2 pieces of gear in their bags, what a ginormous bummer and what a horrible difference to the Corruption system of now that forces people to carry 50 pieces around at all times anyways.

This fucking horseshit philosophy of content A only drops X ilvls, while content B drops X+15 and content C is only X+5 is bullshit. It's not working. It's frustrating and demotivating. It forces people to do content they just don't fucking want to do to be good in the content they actually want to do. 15 years worth of people complaining about this ass crap and Blizzard still are still giving +-0 fucks about PvPers possibly... not wanting to raid.

Fix your god damn gearing system. Fix your motherfucking progression system where this while stupid fucking ass bullshit game boils down to raiding, raiding, more raiding and then some raiding on top of that. It's a fucking joke that you'll cap like 10 levels earlier if your gear progression solely happens in m+ compared to when you get 16 additional ilvls on 5 slots after 2 fucking IDs of raiding.

[TheLucky1]

You CAN spam M+ for gear in SL. The change is that end-of-run chest drops ONLY 1 item. That means LOOT FUNNELS will be the thing to buy to gear up quickly. That means buying lots of WoW tokens to pay for loot funnels to gear up to raid. SL is more pay-to-win than BfA. On the flipside, you will SELLING lots of loot funnels to make money.

$$$$$$$$$

Do you want a tinfoil hat or the dumbest man alive crown?

Edit: okay sorry only tinfoil hat for you, the crown already goes to BloodSense for his comment earlier.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

You CAN spam M+ for gear in SL. The change is that end-of-run chest drops ONLY 1 item. That means LOOT FUNNELS will be the thing to buy to gear up quickly. That means buying lots of WoW tokens to pay for loot funnels to gear up to raid. SL is more pay-to-win than BfA. On the flipside, you will SELLING lots of loot funnels to make money.

$$$$$$$$$

That's not pay to win but ok. Pay to win would be if you could buy an advantage ONLY with real money which you otherwise couldn't get. And if you actually play the game you got LOTS of gold to buy a carry here and there, which you really dont need because you can just get 4 people and spam dungeons to gear up too. Also since tf is gone drops are way more meaningful, you dont have to gamble for sockets, tf and perfect corruptions anymore.

[Kaver]

Hard to say. Progressing raid bosses takes more time than running dungeons, but farming raid bosses is much faster than running dungeons. So the more bosses the raiders can kill the more efficient it becomes for them.

And I would assume most raiding guilds will still do 1 dungeon per week (like we already do) since that's the most efficient thing to do. If you're in a raiding guild, finding people to do a dungeon quick and is easy. But if you only do dungeons, finding people to kill raid bosses is not as easy or quick. So it still seems to me that the raiders are at an advantage.

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As far as I know, heroic raid bosses drop heroic loot from the cache, and mythic raid bosses drop mythic loot from the cache.

But comparing it to a 14 is not so clear-cut just yet. This is the start of a new expansion, not the current level of 14s in BfA. You probably won't be able to do 14s without appropriate gear to also kill some mythic bosses. Realistically, it would make sense for M+ to be a bit easier than the mythic raid early on. But raiders can do M+, they are not at a disadvantage anyway.

But what if Heroic raiders don’t want to do M+? Then they will only get 213 gear. Whereas a player doing only M+ will get a piece of 226 gear each week. I see that as an advantage for the M+ player.

And if the heroic raiders only do 1 dungeons then they will only have one 226 ilvl choice in the weekly chest whereas a player who only run M+ will have 3. I don’t see how the raider have an advantage.

I seems weird to me that you imply that a raider can do M+ but a M+ player cant do raids.. if you cant find a group for raiding then that’s your problem and it shouldn’t affect gear design. You can join a guild. Why should a raider be forced to do M+ when you don’t want to be forced to raid. That is extremely hypocritical.

Also, it is completely incorrect that a +14 dungeon is harder than heroic bosses at the beginning of an expansion.

[united]

All I said was “not everyone likes to raid” and it has y’all mad... my power

[Azerate]

I don't really have any strong feelings when it comes to m+ rewards, but apart from some obvious cons, I definitely see the pros of this change.

1. Lots of loot driven players just flock to where they can get the best loot in the easiest and quickest way. For most people mythic raiding and top end arena is completely out of bounds, so that just leaves heroic raiding and m+. If they put the same ilvl loot as in heroic raid in m+ dungeons, that means lots of players will never even attempt the raid. Opinions differ as to whether this is a problem, but in my opinion - yes, yes it is. I feel doing all kinds of content should be somewhat incentivized, so this change does that.

2. It heavily limits the possibility of doing heroic splits because you can't gear up in heroic ilvl and remove the trade restriction.

The difference in ilvl isn't that big either. If someone is only able to do m+, they won't lose too much. And the chest still drops mythic raid ilvl loot at the end of the week. But people who only care about the loot might be motivated to try raiding as I mentioned above.

The biggest argument against this I can think of is that you need to raid to get gear to do high m+. This is true to an extent, but to an extent this has always been true. There were many quasi-bis items from raids in Legion/BfA that people who wanted to push high keys needed anyway. Also, even if it hits the esport scene around M+, is that really something that should be considered for game design? I feel like it's partially again competitive fairness vs. the quality of the gameplay, and there are good arguments that the latter is better if dungeons aren't on par with raids, loot-wise.

[ketsui]

these threads make me laugh, 90% of the player base is misunderstanding that ilevels are capped-pre mythic raid, then its increased when mythic raiding comes out (IE nothing changed from bfa numbers to SL in mythic+ youll still be able to do mythic +) I tried making a thread on r/wow but their moderators deleted it because it wasn't entertaining enough?

[RuneDK]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

m+ shouldnt award items the same level as mythic raiding...However it should be somewhere between heroic and mythic gear levels

[Kaver]

All I said was “not everyone likes to raid” and it has y’all mad... my power

And not everyone likes M+ but you don’t see heroic raiders make a thread crying that they don’t get 226 gear in their weekly chest while players who do piss easy +14 keys in M+ do.

“Do +14 keys or die” ...

[Wheeler]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

The game was at its most popular historically when it was raid-or-die. People didn't play the game seasonally, as is the M+ lifestyle (by design). Drop in, drop out, no problem. You aren't dropping in and out of a raid team usually. You'll be finding a new guild more often than not.

I genuinely think they believe that getting players invested in guilds, raiding, and raid teams will provide them subscription number stability - as opposed to the giant waves we ride throughout the patch cycles as players come back for 2 weeks, farm M+ super hard to grind the exact same items with additional ilvl, and then quit again.

What they desperately NEED to do is reevaluate the difficulty of their M+ keys, and the amount of work players put in to finish those keys in time. a timed 16 should be treated better than a depleted 17. A timed 19-20 should be treated as near mythic-level difficulty and should reward as such.

The issue they've ALWAYS had with M+ is that the players pushing 24's and the players pushing 15's are getting the exact same reward for VASTLY different difficulties, regardless of if they time it or not. It needs a broader loot-scaling system. PvP players were getting mythic-level loot for performing in the top 5% of their progression path, were they not? Why aren't we rewarding the top M+ teams with those level rewards as well?

[SirBeef]

The whole 'I mythic raid, I *deserve* the best gear!!*" is now completely worthless, imo. If it's so special, why is it being sold to anyone who wants to put out the gold. There is nothing special about mythic raid gear anymore. It should be given out via gameplay to all classes of players, since it's so un-special that it can be sold to anyone who wants it.

Irrelevant. Nor not what I said. I just asked if you are not participating in said activities, why do you need said gear. If you look to the first sentence of the person I quoted, I said I agreed with him.

[Accendor]

Not everyone likes to raid all the time... why don't raiders (and apparently the dev team) see that?

As a mythic raider: The new system sucks like hell. I will log in twice a week for raiding progression and one quick 14 and thats it. Fuck this new system, there is literally nothing wortwhile to do once you set a foot in mythic.

[Yarathir]

A mythic15 is many times more impressive and worthy of rewarding good loot than a heroic raid.

Prove me wrong (you can't)

[Marrilaife]

I'd be fine with m+ giving better gear if it had a weekly cap how much gear it can spit out.

No, you can't "raid all the time" because once you killed the boss, you're loot locked, once you cleared the raid, you're done for the lockout. Time to put the same restrictions on m+ if people want better gear from it.

[kappas]

We didn't.

[Sithalos]

Not everyone likes to do dungeons all the time... Why doesn't the M+ community see that?

I can play this little game too.

[Topornic]

Why not have multiple paths to gearing, rather than "Raiding has to be the best!"? If you like to Raid, then Raid. If you prefer to do M+, do that. Wjy does one need to automatically have the best rewards?

See, to do 15+ you don't need to be mythic geared. That is the highest key you get awarded by the game. Anything above is just for your own enjoyment and flexing.
To do keys like 20+? Yea you probably need that gear, but that's a cherry on top. Also you would get to a point where you can push higher keys faster which makes seasons last less for certain people. There is a threshold where you just can't push higher timed keys. Slow acquirement of better gear pushes that threshold further away. It works like time gating.

Also raid drops are fewer and once per week and m+ is spammable.