I hate Sylvanas, but I think she might be right

[loppy88]

They are writing themselves into another corner. Shadowlands are not something that we should have visited or known about in such detail.

[Vampire Communism]

Oh? You think she is right? So you think every soul no matter how good or bad should go to the darkest pit of hell for all eternity?

Without the Shadowlands, that wouldn't be the case.

[Kithelle]

Without the Shadowlands, that wouldn't be the case.

How do you know? I mean really..how do you know? If we didn't have the Shadowlands who knows what system would be in place...you aren't a god in WoW nor a Dev...so you have no say or power on how the afterlife in the Warcraft universe is formed.

Just admit it...you made this thread to gush over Sylvanas and be done.

[Lei]

I think this is an interesting pov.
i don't have beta so my first reaction to the afterlives movies were as follows: week 1 - well that's fucked up, week 2 - well that's fucked up, week 3 - well thats really fucked up, week 4 - well that's fucking fucked up.
I just really really hope the launch experience won't be 80% of the story and they'll expand and delvie in meaningful, interesting details. I hate hate expansions where the launch raises more questions than answers and then they leave it hanging...

[Syegfryed]

He has never even hinted at something like that. His declared goal was always to wipe out ALL of creation.

Not to mention that he couldn't. Titans can seed life on planets, but they cannot create planets. No, @Soulwind got it completely right. Once all creation is destroyed the demons will be wiped out too until only Sargeras exists.

source on sargeras clearly stating that or its bullshit

he later set out to destroy all world-souls and life in the universe, and undo what the titans had strived for ages to achieve

nothing said he would annihilate the demons and stay alone in the universe

[Raisei]

source on sargeras clearly stating that or its bullshit

Hilarious. How about before making demands, you show a source where he says anything about recreating the universe (excluding the lies he told some people to get them on his side ofc)?

As for my source I refer you to Chronicle 1: "Only by burning away all of creation could the titans stand a chance of thwarting the void lords' ultimate goal. In Sargeras's mind, even a lifeless universe was better than one dominated by the Void"

[Syegfryed]

Hilarious. How about before making demands, you show a source where he says anything about recreating the universe (excluding the lies he told some people to get them on his side ofc)?

As for my source I refer you to Chronicle 1: "Only by burning away all of creation could the titans stand a chance of thwarting the void lords' ultimate goal. In Sargeras's mind, even a lifeless universe was better than one dominated by the Void"

demons reside outside the great dark beyond aka the universe, they live mostly in the nether, nothing says he would destroy all demons and his legion

he is clearly referring to the world souls and the possibility of the void lords corrupting then

yes a lifeless universe is better than one dominated by the void, don't mean its what he want and what will do and the demons are included, there is a lot of assumptions going on here, so unless he clearly stated that he would destroy all demons afterwards i call bullshit

[Raisei]

demons reside outside the great dark beyond aka the universe, they live mostly in the nether, nothing says he would destroy all demons and his legion

he is clearly referring to the world souls and the possibility of the void lords corrupting then

yes a lifeless universe is better than one dominated by the void, don't mean its what he want and what will do and the demons are included, there is a lot of assumptions going on here, so unless he clearly stated that he would destroy all demons afterwards i call bullshit

It's truely amusing how I provide a quote that disproves your stance so you make up all these reasons why it does not apply, while still not presenting so much as a shred of evidence for your own claim. Not only that, you claim I make assumptions while you make a ton of them yourself, talking about what Sargeras "clearly" means, when the words are quite clear themselves.

I called you out on your lack of prove and you are replying by shouting "fake news!" and nothing else, as if that would somehow magically make your point any more proven. That is one sad way to debate a topic, but since this is not the first time I have had the pleasure of talking to you, I am hardly surprised. Not sure what I expected really.

Ah well, I'll not devote any more time to this.

[Syegfryed]

It's truely amusing how I provide a quote that disproves your stance so you make up all these reasons why it does not apply, while still not presenting so much as a shred of evidence for your own claim. Not only that, you claim I make assumptions while you make a ton of them yourself, talking about what Sargeras "clearly" means, when the words are quite clear themselves.

the quote say nothing about ending the demons, you are projecting based on his words, who do not prove what he would do with then for certain

the void lords wanted the world soul to create a void titan and enter the great dark beyond with his power, sargeras wanted to prevent that.

I called you out on your lack of prove and you are replying by shouting "fake news!" and nothing else, as if that would somehow magically make your point any more proven. That is one sad way to debate a topic, but since this is not the first time I have had the pleasure of talking to you, I am hardly surprised. Not sure what I expected really. .

lmao, you can try less ad hominem and less projection and more canon lore.

Again, nothing says Sargeras would destroy the legion and the demons afterwards, sayings he would rather see all life gone than the hands of the void lords don't mean he will end the demons

[cparle87]

Boy, what a great design.

Bring us to, debatably, what should be THE most varied and differing area in the entire multiverse of WoW, what with all the different afterlives they've mentioned in the past AND the new ones they made up for fuck-all reason.

Ignore all the ones people might actually like to see to focus on the same old, corrupt system bullshit story they've pushed every expansion, so they can once again struggle to explain away the story they've written themselves into.

This sounds like a great design decision that couldn't possibly have consequences. /s

Have you been asleep the past decade and a half? We didn't go to Outland, Northrend, the Elemental Planes, the Broken Shore, etc because they were peaceful vacation spots. We went there because there were fucked up beings there who, if left unchecked, were going to come knocking on our doorstep. Where do the police get calls to go to? Peaceful places? Or places where things are going wrong?

PS. I love how you can somehow turn a core concept of video games, that players go to places where there are things to fight, into a Blizzard-bashing rant.

[cparle87]

You can in fact go to a place where there are things to fight, and still have a new story told.

Nobody would argue that Hellfire Penninsula and Netherstorm were the same zone. Not even in story concepts were they relatively the same. The same goes for Borean Tundra and Icecrown Citadel - Both icy wastelands, but kept VERY, VERY different with unique stories and their own designs. The same for, say, Deepholm and Hyjal. Highmountain and Suramar. Each one had it's own story to tell, that then connected to the main story.

Tell me: What's the difference between Maldraxxus and Revendreth? Or either of those and Bastion? Or ANY of those and Ardenweald? What is their UNIQUE story? Oh, they're all the exact same - Not enough Anima, time to take anima from the souls that exist here.

You're focusing on the wrong parts. Yes, we need a story to be told, but why does it have to be the same exact story in every zone, and the same they've already told every expansion since conception? We could have had a zone dedicated to seeing off honorable souls to their peaceful bliss as the Maw attempts to intervene, we could have had a zone dedicated to re-seeding the infinite forest as the Maw slowly decays it, we could have had a zone based off of Valhalla where eternal combat and glory could be won, where a competitor from the Maw has somehow managed to work it's way into the competition. All of these are things where there would be things to fight and problems to solve, AND they each would be unique and related to the actual afterlife instead of just the idea they have about Anima and the Maw.

The difference between those and what we got? Look at ANY Shadowlands zone, and tell me which this describes:
An eternal group of faithfuls with corrupt leadership that has turned it's noble goal into a greedy powergrab.

If your answer isn't "All of them" then you're simply wrong. THAT'S the problem. There's no uniqueness amongst the Shadowlands zones because they all tell the exact same story. It gets worse when you realize this is a story Blizzard retells every expansion.

You say Maldraxxus and Ravendreth are completely the same, then say Deepholm and Hyjal have their own stories. Deepholm and Hyjal were the same story in different places: Twilights want to destroy something that if destroyed will severely damage the world (Nordrassil or the Pillar.) I've kept my head down so I won't comment on Shadowlands story since I've only read summaries from guys like you so I won't argue. And do you really think randomly bolding certain words will convince your readers that you're right?

[Swnem]

They are writing themselves into another corner. Shadowlands are not something that we should have visited or known about in such detail.

I have to agree. It's raising more questions than answering.

[Icelin]

Don't really care what happens to Sylvanas.

What I do know is they successfully painted putting a majority of female characters in the worst picture possible for BFA.

Sylvanas was literally cutting down an old war vet. (Saurfang shouldn't have even died) I really don't know what is more toxic and cruel. Not only that she turns around and spits on everyone after. I don't feel like they could've depicted women in such a worse light even if they tried to.

Jaina ends her long relationship with Kalec. (In multiple books) To instead promote "true" love of her family. Hi Frozen. Literally. She even has the hair for it.

The characters were set up to act and play out in really bizarre ways.That do not fit their normal behavioral pattern. This pretty much did this for every single female character. Don't get me started on Tyrande...

Anyways back to Sylvanas.. I am pretty sure at the rate we are going she will throw Nathanos into the Maw and smile while doing it. Just to upset the men more. Blizzard should stop trying to push an agenda and not the one people think they are pushing.. either way with the numbers that are playing the game it's apparent that both sides are not happy. Sylvanas free us from what? Propaganda? Division? Hatred?

[Zuben]

True enough, Shadowlands seem to operate under fallible judgment that's managed by a bureaucratic system. It's all too orderly and not that different from mortal realms that there kinda had to have been something before it. Though we don't know what; could just as well be there was nothing but a void where souls went to disappear from existence. That's why I'm not quite ready to dismantle the Shadowlands, but rather reform them into a more just place.

One big gripe I have is what constitutes a soul to need redemption. Garrosh was adamant that his path was correct; his feelings were honest. Arbiter declared him wrong and now he's supposed to accept the opposite or be cast to eternal damnation. It's like a certain political wing is in absolute power and damning all who don't tow the Party line. Revendreth should rather be a place to mend confused souls than a re-education camp.

[Aynen]

Sylvanas has become a nihilist. She has seen what awaits everyone in the Maw, so in her eyes what happens to them in life doesn't matter ("You are all nothing!"). She has given up hope, and gets angry when other haven't ("In the end, Death takes us all"). She sees them as fools, and to make a point she burned the tree ("You cannot kill hope" -"Can't I?"). She wants others to share in her pain, to also lose hope. Those innocents? Who cares, they would have gone to the Maw anyway.

I think all of this is a consequence of her soul breaking, like what we've seen with Uther in the afterlives cinematic. Now either she is a passive victim and has indeed given up completely, but I'm betting Blizzard wants her to be "empowered" and she will be actively trying to "fix her soul".

[Raisei]

He doesn't KNOW, he assumes according to the lore development. The Shadowlands really make no sense when you think of it - they are inherently unfair and in the long run, they only exist to feed its denizens with the souls of living beings. Maybe they were never intended to be there, maybe the entire Shadowlands are an artifical construct of the Arbiter who uses them to amass power which he wants to use to rule the universe and Jailer hijacked the system to overpower him and "break the cycle". Maybe in this conflict (about the fate of mortals) he's more on our side than the arbiter - in the sense of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

How are they unfair? Should genocidal maniacs like Garrosh be rewarded for their crimes? Should noble souls like Uther not be allowed to do what they did in life? I am very confused. People begin completely new lifes there, hell under normal circumstances even Garrosh and probably Arthas would have been allowed to fulfill a useful role after paying for their sins.

You make it sound like they are completely self-serving which they are not.

Bastion serves as the connection between the living world and the Shadowlands, and we all used the services of their Spirit Healers, Ardenweald returns Wild Gods back to live in our world to fullfill their function there, Revendreth saves souls from an eternity of suffering in the Maw (or it did before Denathrius went nuts) and finally Maldraxxus ensures that the other areas can fulfill these functions without interference of other domains.

[Raisei]

Yes what you are saying is completely true as long as you assume the order of the Shadowlands is inherent, a given.

But the OP's idea is - what if the Shadowlands are not a natural state of things? What if there was originally no Shadowlands? What if mortals just died and ceased to exist? Or maybe their spiritual culture became strong enough to spark a microdimension where their dead would go - like the Taurens' or Orcs' ancestral fields etc.

But then someone came - ?? Titans, Arbiter, Jailer?? - and bound the entire concept of death into the Shadowlands to steal the souls' energy for themselves?

The problem here is that the Shadowlands are not really an after-life, they are just another stage of life, which is directly connected to the mortal world and since it is possible to affect the mortal world from the Shadowlands andvice-versa, it suggests something sinister in the very fabric of the Shadowlands.

Okay, under that I assumption there is some sense in it. But we have no evidence of that being the case. In fact the current lore says that the Shadowlands exist since the emergence of mortal life. So there was no "before" for dead mortals.
Otherwise it remains that the SLs fulfill a benign purpose that supports mortal souls. Even nightmarish places like Revendreth and those places are dependent on anima to fulfill their purpose. All the sinister connotation emerges through interference of the Jailer and Sylvanas.

I don't know, to me it sounds like the OP just desperately wants to believe that Sylvanas is actually right and his claim that he hates Sylvanas is a front. He thinks she is the one true anti-hero and we will be sorry for stopping her in the end. Which is something I can't agree with.

[Mutley29]

Sylvanas is a pawn in a much MUCH bigger game. She just wants to stop feeling utter torment as a banshee but bigger players are manipulating her actions toward a bigger cosmic goal.

Sylvanas really is small potatos in the grand scheme of each plane fighting each other for dominance.

Sylvanas is a nice foil for death to get one over on life but her actions could tip death out of cosmic balance where the other cosmic forces such as the light and the void might take advantage.

[Zantos]

I watched those shorts too and the shadowlands seems horrible. You have a cult that robs you of your entire identity and all of your memories. They give you no reasoning to this other than to ascend to serve their purpose. Which is basically being grim reapers. You have the zone meant to torture souls until they yield and can join the other realms in service, though there really only seems to be 1 such realm. You have another realm where they just make a giant army to fight the enemies of death, whatever that is. Then you have the druid lands 2.0, since the emerald dream wasn't enough druid stuff.

Lets assume there isn't a drought of anima. The grove would still just essentially be a place of rest and recovery for powerful druids and nature gods. Maldraxxus would still just be chillin, ready for some imaginary war and cookin up more undead. The Kyrian would still be grim reaping and all that jazz. And the venthyr would be redeeming souls and sending them to tend the gardens or stand in the army. Since it seems the Kyrian only want the best of the best from life, so I doubt anything from Revendreth would go there.

So, essentially, become slaves one way or another to someone. Doesn't really seem like anyone in the shadowlands is truly free. Makes you wonder if there are other places to live there that we haven't been told about.

So, my working theory is Sylvanas has gone super mode about not being made into a slave again. She was already forced to be subjected to the whims of the Lich King and forced to kill her own people that she had sworn to protect. I can see very much how she would want to destroy the shadowlands to the point that she wouldn't be made into a slave yet again.

[Raisei]

I think the idea isn't that Sylvanas is "right" as in what she is doing is "right" but she might have information regarding the purpose of the Shadowlands we don't have that may put the entire place, her motivations, the Jailer's motivations and the Arbiter's motivation in a completely different light.

This is the problem I have: After what she has done, her motivations mean nothing. Not anymore. The time for that is simply over. If she really had a good reason for it all, because she has access to information we don't have, then she could have shared those and we could have decided what to do, together. Instead she started a war that cost thousands of lifes and personally gave the order to murder thousands of civilians without any need. As if that is not enough, she knowingly damned those people to suffer after their death without so much as a twitch of remorse.

No big reveal will ever change that, even if the Jailer tricked her, even if the Arbiter is also not trustworthy, even if there is another unseen bad guy behind the curtain. Even if her end goal is turning life into a paradise for everyone. None of that changes what Sylvanas has done or excuses it. The world might not be black and white, but there is a point of no return and Sylvanas dashed over it with Teldrassil. She will die for her actions and then we will kill whoever else needs it, that is how it works.

My prediction is that most likely everybody will turn out to be a bad guy, in one way or another. Only that one of them will be ultimately bad and dangerous for us all.

I very much doubt it. The Warcraft story is not Game of Thrones. Not everyone is a bastard only looking out for themselves (and good people are not ALWAYS stabbed in the back). Lines blur and there are grey areas, but WoW still has pretty clear good and evil sides and SLs won't be that much different. The Winter Queen for example is clearly a good character. She is forced to sacrifice souls but she clearly is saddened by it, while Denathrius is so clearly evil it drips from every last of his words. WoW simply is not that complex.
Now not that I would dislike more complexity, but it just isn't gonna happen.

Might be that the Jailer is in fact the Jailed and he's just really pissed about this and trying to break free and wreak havoc on the world for revenge?

Maybe the Jailer was actually responsible to keep Death in balance with the other forces and now he's just trying to get that power back from the hands of someone behind the schemes?

He is most definately jailed and looking to free himself and get revenge. But as I said above, it just does not matter anymore. He can be the godly creator of the universe that was unjustly overthrown by his creations for all I care, after what is being hinted at as his manipulation, there is just no way to let him walk away. Billions and Trillions of lifes have been snuffed out because of him and he is going to pay for that.