Incredibly disappointed with class balancing so far

[Elias01]

only the 2 last bosses matters for us top 50 players, dont be dense we have alts for the trash bosses befor if they are a problem for some miraculous reason

And do you know what do no matters? Top end players. Game shouldnt be and wont be tunned around you like ever.

[Nyel]

The post you replied to GAVE AN EXAMPLE of how a tier set completely changed a spec and you somehow missed that? Tier sets are borrowed power that you had to roll the dice if your was good or not.

You are wrong. Period. Now i will anxiously await your freak out response.

You and all the others that compare tier sets to borrowed powers like Azerite or Artifacts or Covenants completely miss the point.

Tier sets are in the same range as Legendaries when it comes to borrowed power.

Azerite + Essences + Corruption or soon Covenants + Conduits + Soulbinds completely define your class and are the entire progress your class makes throughout the expansion. This was never the case with tier sets.

Tier sets might make classes super strong, but that’s a tuning issue. Covenants are the entire class development for Shadowlands, consisting of one active skill, and two layers of passive skills and (Conduits and Soulbinds) that completely determine who you are or how you play in Shadowlands. A tier set could never do this as it has been only one small part of class development.

Tier sets and borrowed powers that define your entire expansion progress are on a whole another level and cannot be compared.

[Segus1992]

I'm incredibly disappointed by the hotel that's being built outside from where I work. Granted it's not finished yet but I don't think that's an excuse for it to be incomplete.

Would you use this same tired argument if the hotel had announced that they'd be housing daily dog howling competitions? Just because it isn't finished doesn't mean feedback is worthless.

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And do you know what do no matters? Top end players. Game shouldnt be and wont be tunned around you like ever.

Who should it be tuned around? Terrible players that aren't using the classes to their maximum? How do you tune around that? Should all classes be just as easy so that even the lowest level players perform equally on all of them?

Balance should always take all aspects of a game into account, but most closely look at the higher tier players. Not necessarily the world first players, but Mythic raiders absolutely.

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You and all the others that compare tier sets to borrowed powers like Azerite or Artifacts or Covenants completely miss the point.

Tier sets are in the same range as Legendaries when it comes to borrowed power.

Azerite + Essences + Corruption or soon Covenants + Conduits + Soulbinds completely define your class and are the entire progress your class makes throughout the expansion. This was never the case with tier sets.

Tier sets might make classes super strong, but that’s a tuning issue. Covenants are the entire class development for Shadowlands, consisting of one active skill, and two layers of passive skills and (Conduits and Soulbinds) that completely determine who you are or how you play in Shadowlands. A tier set could never do this as it has been only one small part of class development.

Tier sets and borrowed powers that define your entire expansion progress are on a whole another level and cannot be compared.

What decides this exactly? I remember the Dragon Soul tier set for Shadow Priest that completely changed how I played while Shadowfiend was active - meanwhile there are several Covenants that do nothing more than require a GCD every 45 seconds.

Are you just dismissing points to be able to complain more freely? Entire class development? What?

Tier sets and legendaries are absolutely borrowed powers, yes. Saying they're on the same level is simply wrong though, unless you're referring to old legendaries with static ilvls - Legion and Shadowlands legendaries are absolutely closer to Covenants level of borrowed power than they are to tier sets. Tier sets are really no different to legendaries or Covenants except that you can't choose and that they have a quicker turnover period.

[LostLocket]

You and all the others that compare tier sets to borrowed powers like Azerite or Artifacts or Covenants completely miss the point.

Tier sets are in the same range as Legendaries when it comes to borrowed power.

Azerite + Essences + Corruption or soon Covenants + Conduits + Soulbinds completely define your class and are the entire progress your class makes throughout the expansion. This was never the case with tier sets.

Tier sets might make classes super strong, but that’s a tuning issue. Covenants are the entire class development for Shadowlands, consisting of one active skill, and two layers of passive skills and (Conduits and Soulbinds) that completely determine who you are or how you play in Shadowlands. A tier set could never do this as it has been only one small part of class development.

Tier sets and borrowed powers that define your entire expansion progress are on a whole another level and cannot be compared.

I would agree it has become far to much. I would argue the rate of acquisition is an issue as well. Tier sets especially post lfr are something that you are rarely without for more then two weeks at least for your two set. It was something you could quickly grab and use then be done with it. These systems that are based around the idea you are going to sink at least a few hours every week into chipping away at seem far more annoying then anything prelegion.

I miss when the game relied less on gimicky post leveling progression systems and instead just had you doing harder and harder content for gear.

[Osmeric]

Waiting for the "incredibly disappointed my class was nerfed" posts.

[Segus1992]

Waiting for the "incredibly disappointed my class was nerfed" posts.

I must be confused. Isn't that literally what this is? I guess there's a minute difference between "nerfed" and "wasn't buffed"?

[Osmeric]

I must be confused. Isn't that literally what this is? I guess there's a minute difference between "nerfed" and "wasn't buffed"?

I mean, in the final balancing process, some on top will no longer be OP.

[Kaelon]

There is certainly evidence - well-documented on video commentators (see Bellular, Taliesin/Evitel, etc.) -- that Shadowlands' balancing, even as fundamental as dealing with legacy content post-level-squish, is unfinished. I know of no one able to solo any raid post-Cataclysm for achievement or transmog farming, for instance.

[LostLocket]

I mean, in the final balancing process, some on top will no longer be OP.

I don't really expect it to go live until mythic opens up forcing classes that used to be powerful to desperately try rebuild their class before raid time. I have to ask from the perspective of someone who thought artifact power in legion was far to much for a secondary system and grind. Are people who enjoy doing these kind of strange grinds happy with this system?

I know the players im surrounded by who value progression and competition have despised this new system. People who used to compete in logs simply hand wave them away now as most of the time the highest dps is based around who got the more opportune or numerous procs. Is there a crowd that is really excited for the same spec of the same class and using the same talents having a 20-40% dps variance based on secondary systems?

I stand by my believe that covenants should of been restricted to cosmetics but again that is coming from someone who say artifact weapons as far to much.

[Segus1992]

There is certainly evidence - well-documented on video commentators (see Bellular, Taliesin/Evitel, etc.) -- that Shadowlands' balancing, even as fundamental as dealing with legacy content post-level-squish, is unfinished. I know of no one able to solo any raid post-Cataclysm for achievement or transmog farming, for instance.

I can't think of many things less fundamental than soloing old raid ontent. It's also a super easy fix and as such is a low priority before it actually matters.

[Detritivores]

OP is doing the thing I find most annoying and counterproductive by most of the player base. Weekly changes in blue notes does NOT signify class balance or even attention. Warriors hit a pinnacle of class design in late MoP/early WoD. They could have left all 4 (yes, FOUR!) of our specs in a minimally changed state for perpetuity with flavor from tier bonuses or new talents or whatever. Instead The Pruning and subsequent silliness (read: unnecessarily complicated systems) has made all our specs worse and deleted one of them from the game entirely.

People like OP see changes and say oh good my class is getting attention, with no regard for the impact of that attention, which is almost universally negative since WoD more or less.

Edit: the most frustrating part of this to me is the opportunity cost. The sheer person-hours that go into unnecessary class changes that could have gone towards making the game actually better. It bottles the mind.

[Gorsameth]

There is certainly evidence - well-documented on video commentators (see Bellular, Taliesin/Evitel, etc.) -- that Shadowlands' balancing, even as fundamental as dealing with legacy content post-level-squish, is unfinished. I know of no one able to solo any raid post-Cataclysm for achievement or transmog farming, for instance.

And like the last time there was a squish that broke soloing old raids it will be fixed.
I don't see how this is hard to understand.

[LostLocket]

And like the last time there was a squish that broke soloing old raids it will be fixed.
I don't see how this is hard to understand.

I think all of the wow's community good will (what little it ever had) was spent with BFA. We were shown broken and grindy systems over and over again until it got to the point that they did the majority of our dmg. Now we are shown even more systems and so far they look to be as big of a train wreck as all of bfa's systems rolled together into in one...

I don't blame the wow community for being pessimistic about this. I know i leveled a second toon of my main class so I can pvp and raid though I admit I have no idea who im going to gear it before farm.

[Gorsameth]

I think all of the wow's community good will (what little it ever had) was spent with BFA. We were shown broken and grindy systems over and over again until it got to the point that they did the majority of our dmg. Now we are shown even more systems and so far they look to be as big of a train wreck as all of bfa's systems rolled together into in one...

I don't blame the wow community for being pessimistic about this. I know i leveled a second toon of my main class so I can pvp and raid though I admit I have no idea who im going to gear it before farm.

If people have that little faith in Blizzard and are that disappointing in the game they should do themselves a favor and quit playing.
They will be happier for it.

[LostLocket]

If people have that little faith in Blizzard and are that disappointing in the game they should do themselves a favor and quit playing.
They will be happier for it.

I mean here is the thing... people enjoy parts of wow. That holds try for almost ever community inside of it. I enjoy raiding and so long as that holds up I am willing to take on a certain amount of chores to do it. I did quit for most of bfa because I couldn't be bothered with the grinds. I don't really understand the mentality of its a good thing to change the game to push out long time players for questionable gains...

I know I will need two characters in sl if I want to do harder content (ce and hopefully glad but if im honestly likely a 2100ish rating) so I am rolling two characters because I understand the current systems are so broken and anti casual I won't be able to obtain my goals otherwise.

It comes down to what you want from the game. I have my own line in the sand and while sl looks to be an unbalanced mess... it isn't looking to be all that grindy of one so I am up for it. Others of course are not and people quit from changes all the time. It is about what you personally enjoy and what you can put up with.

[SirBeef]

Technically there are numbers on class vs class performance (in particular the infamous Wowmeta site), but at this stage they're utterly worthless.

Good quality feedback right now is addressing what don't you like about your own spec and what changes you feel would make it better to play? Feedback in the form of "my class is doing less DPS than his class, REEEEEE" is just whining pointlessly.

Unfortunately the latter is what most of the feedback ever is. And people legitimately wonder why changes don't happen. Yes some issues are discussed calmly and reasonably and don't get fixed. But tons of changes happen from testing through last patch that everyone just ignores becasue the one thing they wanted didn't happen.

[bloodkin]

I think all of the wow's community good will (what little it ever had) was spent with BFA. We were shown broken and grindy systems over and over again until it got to the point that they did the majority of our dmg. Now we are shown even more systems and so far they look to be as big of a train wreck as all of bfa's systems rolled together into in one...

I don't blame the wow community for being pessimistic about this. I know i leveled a second toon of my main class so I can pvp and raid though I admit I have no idea who im going to gear it before farm.

agreed to an extent. the borrowed power and literal endless farms hard their charm in Legion and overstayed it's welcome in BFA. But having no grinds at all is also problematic, as wow is designed with grinding to a reasonable extent in mind. The problem is that the current devs seem to have forgotten that the grinds should be manageable, the players don't need a game which is a literal chore list to work off as an engagement metrics lure. I wish the devs could go back a bit in design philosophy and let the quality of the gameplay and lore be good enough.

[Kaelon]

And like the last time there was a squish that broke soloing old raids it will be fixed.
I don't see how this is hard to understand.

That's pretty much what I said when I said "it is unfinished." They'll finish it, I'm sure. Just don't expect it any time soon.

[Kralljin]

If you know math thats up to MoP, not included. I could have said 6 years but Cata had it as well. MoP was better than the other ones for the most part. I did not say 6 to 10 years.

Even Wotlk and Cata had better class balance, because the devs didn't have worry about balancing a multitude of external systems on top of the current classes.

Don't take this as a "everything was amazing in Expansion X", every era had its share of imbalances and issues, but especially Legion and BfA had serious problems.

Especially in the light of the fact that Blizzard has gained amazing tools to actually balance things seperately, back in Wotlk, they just couldn't buff spell X because it might make some hybrid build too attractive or buff another spec (which doesn't need a buff) that happened to use the same spell.
Not to mention that PvP was a massive issue as well, as didn't started to balance PvP seperately from PvE, as they can do now.

The "tuning knobs" (and i don't mean any external power systems) nowadays dwarf what the developers previously had to work with.

You are talking about certain corruptions and legendaries being unbalanced, I talk about classes in general vs each other.

Those corruptions and legendaries involuntarily affected the balance of power between Classes, especially Corruption.

Mages with full Mastery amp. Corruption aren't nearly as OP than without them.
Matter of fact, BfA actually recovered in terms of overall balance since 8.1 and 8.3 was in terms of class changes also a step in the right direction.
Then Corruption came and fucked everything up, because anything that doesn't scale utterly insane with any stats (or can bypass the negative effects of high Corruption as easily) has been pretty boned.

[Nyel]

What decides this exactly? I remember the Dragon Soul tier set for Shadow Priest that completely changed how I played while Shadowfiend was active - meanwhile there are several Covenants that do nothing more than require a GCD every 45 seconds.

Are you just dismissing points to be able to complain more freely? Entire class development? What?

Tier sets and legendaries are absolutely borrowed powers, yes. Saying they're on the same level is simply wrong though, unless you're referring to old legendaries with static ilvls - Legion and Shadowlands legendaries are absolutely closer to Covenants level of borrowed power than they are to tier sets. Tier sets are really no different to legendaries or Covenants except that you can't choose and that they have a quicker turnover period.

The level of complexity decides it. A legendary has one passive effect. Tier sets did have two passive effects.

I think people still don’t know how exactly Covenants work and interact with your character in Shadowlands (no one but Blizzard is to blame because the system is overly complex and unnecessary complicated).

Per Covenant you get one active ability, three (?) possible Soulbinds and several Conduits plus traits for your Soulbind. The system is a min-maxing nightmare (I am no min-maxer) because it consists of so many different elements. Your Covenant doesn’t just offer you an active skill. It gives you your entire class progress in the form of soulbinds and conduits and all of them are different and interact differently with your class. It’s basically another artifact weapon like progress but it’s not rigid in the sense that you choose your spec and have a weapon, you have 4 Covenants with 4 skills plus a dozen possible Soulbinds plus Conduits to choose from.

Tier sets and legendaries are in their inherent design a completely different kind of borrowed power. Classes work fine without them, which makes them a good borrowed power. Artifacts, Azerite and Covenant are the backbone of your entire class in the respective expansion. Your class doesn’t work properly without them because they’re designed in exactly that way, as a borrowed progress for your class. Blizzard relies on this kind of class development since Legion and we’ve seen how it didn’t work out in BfA - it might be worse in Shadowlands.