9.0 General Discussion

[Nagawithlegs]

From what I gathered in the interview with Ion, where he talked about the different 'pantheons', he called the Titans the Pantheon of Order and said we would meet another Pantheon in the Shadowlands, the Pantheon of Death.
Eonar is a Titan, so she is not of the life realm, she is part of the Pantheon of Order. Ordering life may be her prime responsiblity, but Life is not her origin. Her origin is Order.

Right, and you even see the Eternal Ones (the Pantheon of Death) have a similar idea going on where they are themed around certain aspects.

Kyrestia = Order/Light (the main Kyrian energy source seems to be Arcane and it fits their general theme, and they talk about a Void attack/have a heavenly aesthetic)

Winter Queen= Life (duh)

Primus = Death (the certified Death x2 guy, hence the general necromancy theme. he also may be actually dead)

Denathrius = Fel/Void (Dreadlord/Nathrezim hints and ties as well as Shadow powerset, and Light constantly invading)

Which leaves the question of what exactly Zovaal represents or represented, though he may be the TRUE "Death" guy of the pantheon.

[formerShandalay]

Right, and you even see the Eternal Ones (the Pantheon of Death) have a similar idea going on where they are themed around certain aspects.

Kyrestia = Order/Light (the main Kyrian energy source seems to be Arcane and it fits their general theme, and they talk about a Void attack/have a heavenly aesthetic)

Winter Queen= Life (duh)

Primus = Death (the certified Death x2 guy, hence the general necromancy theme. he also may be actually dead)

Denathrius = Fel/Void (Dreadlord/Nathrezim hints and ties as well as Shadow powerset, and Light constantly invading)

Which leaves the question of what exactly Zovaal represents or represented, though he may be the TRUE "Death" guy of the pantheon.

I am really still curious about the reason for the Maw's existence in the first place. I mean, if a dead person dies in the Shadowlands, they simply dissipate and are from then on truly dead and gone. Their energy that went into the SL's fabric may later be used again, but the person does not exist anymore. I do have a few theories on why they need a Maw at all and what the purpose for it is, but it's all pure speculation of course and I'm curious to see where they are going with this and with Jovaal himself. Was he a jerk from the beginning, is he on par with the others regarding the power level or is he more powerful, and if so, what is he? Was he actually betrayed by one or more of the others or is that simply his way of seeing it, because they turned on him when he went overboard with his 'evil' plans? Or is it simply a lie, so he can get gullible people on his side and convince them of the injustice of it all (when it is really him being the reason for the injustice)? I really hope they explore these things in an interesting way. And I really hope Jovaal doesn't keep showing up with more of the 'IMPOSSIBLE!' dialogue lines. If he is supposed to be the big bad behind eons of infiltration and cosmic chaos, I expect him to not be surprised by the player character's status as 'Champion of Azeroth' and their annoying ability to do just about everything. He must know this or he is simply an idiot.

[Cosmic Janitor]

A beta quirk I think
Renown comes from 2 weekly quests unless you are behind
It also comes from the campaign quests

Also if they don’t change exp then you guys better get used to war mode

It was fine without war mode. I finished leveling in Revendreth with enough quests for another 30-60% of exp over cap. Or in other terms, I did everything in Bastion + Dungeon, Maldraxxus + Dungeon, Ardenweald + Dungeon, and in Revendreth I had the last 2 chapters of the campaign, 2-3 side quest storylines and the dungeon open when I reached max level. So if you play this in completionist mode it's alright. Afaik they removed the checkpoint in Maldraxxus. At least it worked like this last week before the patch, I certainly won't level a second character to find out though. I gave Blizzard a fair share of feedback (I'm curious if they will actually fix the bugs this time ), now it's up to them.

But I do know some people just want to reach max level and I agree that Blizzard should stop trying to force people to finish the story first now after 16 years of giving a flying shit about the story and (mostly failed) attempts of cultivating an e-sport playerbase. I know enough people that will come back and will probably not even reach max level because they can't be arsed to level a character that way, but that is something Blizzard will have to deal with.

As for the Renown, I just finished the Kyrian campaign and I think that is just all catchup mechanic. I started Revendreth on a max level premade and I immediately got 40 renown, hence I think that this is just intended as the catchup as the server is probably set to max renown and my leveled character had to start from nothing. In that regard I can only implore everyone who can wait and prefers a fluid experience to just do so if they're just in it for the story. The flow was pretty decent by allowing you to keep going. If I think about having to wait a week between each of the steps then I can't help but feel that is complete rubbish. Anyway, I could also be mistaken and it was just a Kyrian thing, they have no raid weapon vendor, they don't have armor upgrade vendors either and their renown gear comes with stats.. they haven't even sorted the faction parity out yet.. lol. No wonder they didn't release in 2.5 weeks.

[Valysar]

Found this on discord, pretty funny

[Raetary]

Right, and you even see the Eternal Ones (the Pantheon of Death) have a similar idea going on where they are themed around certain aspects.

Kyrestia = Order/Light (the main Kyrian energy source seems to be Arcane and it fits their general theme, and they talk about a Void attack/have a heavenly aesthetic)

Winter Queen= Life (duh)

Primus = Death (the certified Death x2 guy, hence the general necromancy theme. he also may be actually dead)

Denathrius = Fel/Void (Dreadlord/Nathrezim hints and ties as well as Shadow powerset, and Light constantly invading)

Which leaves the question of what exactly Zovaal represents or represented, though he may be the TRUE "Death" guy of the pantheon.

You forgot the Arbiter.

She fits Order more than anything.

[Blayze]

I wonder when Blizzard are going to drop the 'reveal' on us that Mortality is some hidden seventh cosmic force, more powerful than all the others because of sheer human potential.

[Nagawithlegs]

You forgot the Arbiter.

She fits Order more than anything.

She's definitely Order, but between Kyrestia being a human (somehow) and their close connection with Oribos and the Arbiter (maybe that's on purpose) I would say the Kyrians are second in line for the Order spot.

- - - Updated - - -

Found this on discord, pretty funny

While I agree that borrowed power systems aren't great, I also don't think that the WoW playerbase would be able to handle another WoD expac or XIV-style expac where it's just raids and dungeons. The difference between XIV and WoW playerbases is that XIV is okay with logging off for multiple months at at time: the modern WoW fanbase would shit itself when they "ran out of stuff to do".

The argument to this is "just introduce housing then" and I have no counterpoint.

[Kereberus]

Found this on discord, pretty funny

After playing the beta this has been one of the most overblown thing it is absurd.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Logging off for multiple months doesn't seem to be a good thing but yeah whatever.

[Nagawithlegs]

After playing the beta this has been one of the most overblown thing it is absurd.

I get why too. Blizzard doesn't make them look simple in their blue posts and most (I would take a wild guess) of the people complaining about too many systems haven't played beta. They just see big blue walls of texts they likely don't read and instead listen to people talk about them for more than ten minutes (which is a red flag for people).

How many people complaining ACTUALLY know that you only get one soulbind with one rank at launch?

[Nyel]

While I agree that borrowed power systems aren't great, I also don't think that the WoW playerbase would be able to handle another WoD expac or XIV-style expac where it's just raids and dungeons. The difference between XIV and WoW playerbases is that XIV is okay with logging off for multiple months at at time: the modern WoW fanbase would shit itself when they "ran out of stuff to do".

Final Fantasy XIV introduces two to three new classes (jobs) with each expansion, plus they have mostly other basic features they either add or vastly improve. There’s more than just raids, dungeons and new zones. Plus, the storytelling is superior in every aspect compared to WoW.

Even Blizzard trying to bring a cohesive story to Shadowlands is kindergarden level of storytelling in comparison to FFXIV.

The problem is, if you see the Shadowlands development, you really think Blizzard is adding all these restrictions because they just value MAUs and want to increase them by making things tedious and repetitive. It’s less than in BfA because there it backfired a lot, but it’s still very present in Shadowlands. That’s why Conduit energy is so similar to F2P games, as they use exact those mechanics that restore slowly on a daily / weekly basis.

A lot of things in Shadowlands are just overcomplicated and simply not fun. The Maw. Covenants, especially Soulbinds. Professions. General class design.

There’s so much stuff that needs fixing to be enjoyable, it’s astounding. I don’t want to imagine how they even supposed to launch Shadowlands in three weeks. Plus there’s a ton of bugs, missing location and unpolished stuff on top of the unfun features.

[Nagawithlegs]

Final Fantasy XIV introduces two to three new classes (jobs) with each expansion, plus they have mostly other basic features they either add or vastly improve. There’s more than just raids, dungeons and new zones.

Aside from housing, what else is there? Genuine question. I have heard that there's a casino but don't know much about it.

[Nyel]

After playing the beta this has been one of the most overblown thing it is absurd.

But it’s not. When you play beta you see how overloaded Covenants are, most of it being pointless. Plus the horrible and very unintuitive user interface for Soulbinds / Conduits. The system could be much better if Blizzard wouldn’t fabricate restrictions and add them to add... I don’t know what they try to accomplish.

[Vakir]

Look, I'm absurdly pro-"decouple abilities from Covenants because player power and aesthetic can't always mesh well and also certain ones work better for certain specs..."

...(or "ripcorder" if you prefer )

...and even I think the criticism of the complexity of the systems are immensely overblown as long as they don't make add any significant ones (no Corruption-style horseshit) in patch content.

Conduits are Relics that have the benefits of not taking the place of loot drops and not being consumed, Covenant abilities are your Artifact's main ability, Soulbinds are akin to a basic-bitch Talent Tree.

It's really not that bad. Legendaries are an improvement over Legiondaries once they buff them to be worthwhile, having 2 Cov abilities over 1 Artifact ability adds flavor and versatility, and there's no nonsense with rank bumps and taking the place of loot on Conduits vs. Relics. Provided no Netherlight Crucible shenanigans, it's a net win.

[Nagawithlegs]

Look, I'm absurdly pro-"decouple abilities from Covenants because player power and aesthetic can't always mesh well and also certain ones work better for certain specs..."

...(or "ripcorder" if you prefer )

...and even I think the criticism of the complexity of the systems are immensely overblown as long as they don't make add any significant ones (no Corruption-style horseshit) in patch content.

Conduits are Relics that have the benefits of not taking the place of loot drops and not being consumed, Covenant abilities are your Artifact's main ability, Soulbinds are akin to a basic-bitch Talent Tree.

There is no argument one way or the other, it's based on people's emotions and feelings about the subject. You cannot sway them or discuss away someone's feelings about something.

[Adoxe]

Final Fantasy XIV introduces two to three new classes (jobs) with each expansion

To people who aren't familiar with FF14 reading this - that's the equivalent of 1 single class in WoW. FF14 "jobs" are role locked and have no specs. I'm not sure why you're using this as one of the ways to show FF14 does things better or whatever. Storytelling is the only thing FF has superior to WoW, no matter which way you cut it.

[Nyel]

Aside from housing, what else is there? Genuine question. I have heard that there's a casino but don't know much about it.

Yeah, there’s Gold Saucer which is a kind of casino / funpark where you can go and do several activities (Chocobo races, gambling etc). Then they have Hildibrand adventures which are a kind of investigative story. Final Fantasy XIV has dungeons similar to Torghast for several years now.

The biggest difference might be the overall difficulty or approach: you don’t get gear so easily. You don’t reach max level so easily. Everything just takes way more effort and time than in WoW. WoW is the fast food version of an MMORPG, FFXIV is not (as much).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

To people who aren't familiar with FF14 reading this - that's the equivalent of 1 single class in WoW. FF14 "jobs" are role locked and have no specs. I'm not sure why you're using this as one of the ways to show FF14 does things better or whatever. Storytelling is the only thing FF has superior to WoW, no matter which way you cut it.

Unless you don't care whatsoever for the aesthetic or anime.

There is no argument one way or the other, it's based on people's emotions and feelings about the subject. You cannot sway them or discuss away someone's feelings about something

I personally like covanents and the abilities given but I understand the mixing player power and "player fantasy/theme" is...not always the best move. I realize that seems like I'm contradicting myself but..it is what it is.

[Nagawithlegs]

To people who aren't familiar with FF14 reading this - that's the equivalent of 1 single class in WoW. FF14 "jobs" are role locked and have no specs. I'm not sure why you're using this as one of the ways to show FF14 does things better or whatever. Storytelling is the only thing FF has superior to WoW, no matter which way you cut it.

That's what I figured. So am I right in assuming that most XIV expansions are styled around no or barely any new systems, new classes and new zones/raid/dungeons?

I can see the appeal but I think fewer people would play WoW if they adopted that. It may be a western consumer mentality thing but I think if Fall Guys can't last for more than a few weeks, a "simple" WoW expansion wouldn't do too well (and no, Classic does well for more reasons than that).

I'm hoping for fewer borrowed power systems but I don't think a simplistic expansion is feasible for modern gamers.

[Nyel]

To people who aren't familiar with FF14 reading this - that's the equivalent of 1 single class in WoW. FF14 "jobs" are role locked and have no specs. I'm not sure why you're using this as one of the ways to show FF14 does things better or whatever. Storytelling is the only thing FF has superior to WoW, no matter which way you cut it.

It might be jobs, and I’ll give you that, they only have one spec, but they’re more complex and interesting to play than most of the recent WoW specs. But yes, then let’s just count 2 or 3 jobs as a class and Final Fantasy XIV still offers you one (WoW) class per expansion. By the time WoW maybe gets another class it’s 2022 and we haven’t gotten one for 6 years.

(I don’t know how or why the FFXIV discussion started, it’s a great MMORPG, but comparing it to WoW doesn’t really work, they’re both catering to different kinds of people and botch approach the genre differently; WoW is the ARPG fast food MMORPG whereas FFXIV is more the slower, storytelling experience).