The intent of Sylvanas revealed today?

[Varodoc]

And like I said, its still an example of Sylvanas outsmarting N'zoth: Doing what he didn't want.

And how exactly does N'zoth taking over the planet ruin the Jailer's plans? The Jailer's plans seem completely ambivalent to that.

I already explained it to you. Reread my first reply.

Also, if outsmarting N'Zoth can be summed up as "doing something he didn't want", then plenty of people have already outsmarted him, at which point Sylvanas is not special in any way. And shall we recount the number of people who outsmarted Sylvanas herself? Because the list is quite long and it would take me some time.

[Quaade]

I think the line is out of context and she'd then mention how she has to break the cosmos or what have you to make clear she's killing everyone. But if taken in isolation it implies she's got a bit of a Devos thing going - the whole Life-Death cycle is fucked and by breaking it you can self-actualize.

The latter'd actually be a pretty okay motive but again, I think the whole line is out of context.

No, the latter would be even more fucked up. As was Devos' perspective. Death follows life, that's just how it is. Every living being moves on a trajectory of from the cradle to the grave and end that trajectory is a god complex at best and pure unbridled malignant narcissism and utter stupidity at worst.

People dying is a good thing for progress as it means that their ideas and ways of doing things will be replaced by the ideas and ways of doing things by the next generation. It's how a society progresses and evolves. The longer you live the more conservative you are since you wish to cling to the things being as you remember them instead of letting them change because change is scary.

[Coconut]

totally with you that blueman group wannabe is a bit dull rn. he will likely get much more interesting once that dreadlords book is discovered and really fleshed out, but their current angle of being all mysterious with him doesn't work. dw, i don't think they're just going to drop sylvanas as a hype tool for the jailer. she's working with him but clearly refuses to be subservient to anyone. i would venture that she and the jailer have some overlapping motivation, but zovaal likely looms as more evil overall. his conspiracy to unravel the cosmos is interesting but hasn't gotten enough screentime yet. i can't see them dropping sylvanas as hype for the jailer knowing how mad the fans would get.

What I could see happening is that the Jailer in his current form is evil, but she needs to earn his trust regardless in order to get close and Moana him once she recovers his heart at some point during the expansion. That would leave an open question as to who was employing the Dreadlords to infiltrate the other cosmic forces, as it would be kind of weird if the Jailer, being initially good, created this vast network after being transformed and banished.

Of course, it's also possible that the line at the beginning and that one shot of Sylvanas looking emotional and sympathetic are from a clip in which she is being deceptive, either with Nathanos or Anduin. I'll take it with a grain of salt until we see more, but hopefully she gets more depth than being a throwaway lead-in to a boring villain.

[Super Dickmann]

I doubt it. Hackneyed redemptions was Metzen-era, now it's the Golden era of cartoon morality. Ironically the redemption route would be better in this case because of how contrived and forced her villain-batting felt. They didn't do it in the right way to make a villainous death feel satisfying.

Words can't describe how against redeeming Arthas I am for a large variety of reasons, redeeming Sylvanas would also be a major mistake. She should have the end boss credentials as far as I'm concerned, for reasons @Mehrunes outlined. Everything about the Jailor is what we're told he's involved in, not who he is. Which is a shame, because a silent antagonist may have worked very well for someone meant to be so impossibly old.

@Quaade

Change has no inherent value, but even if it did, which it doesn't, your argument is self-defeating because in this case it'd be Sylvanas who is the agent of change and the guys so old they're literally called 'The Eternal Ones', who're the forces of the status quo, so an ideology of change for the sake of change would endorse her success.

[Quaade]

The Jailer is an ancient evil who seeks to consume the entire cosmos, as mentioned several times by Blizzard. Sylvanas, in her twisted mind, believes she's doing a favour to all mortals, but the Jailer is entirely self-serving. That's why I believe Jailer will eventually betray Sylvanas, he just wants to consume everything. He probably told Sylvanas that he'd set everyone free in order to bring her to his side, but he sees her as another disposable tool, and he certainly doesn't feel altruistic towards mortals.

However I don't think Sylvanas will redeem herself in any way, she's wronged too many people to be forgiven, and I think Blizzard learned from the Grommash fiasco. However, I do think Sylvanas might feel some remorse once the Jailer backstabs her, but nothing more.

The Jailer, and not Sylvanas, is the main villain and central driving force of Shadowlands. Never forget that.

The Jailer has already betrayed and lied to Sylvanas by saying that all undead ends up in The Maw, yet we encounter Mograine in Maldraxxus,. So that's a load of BS.

Him stabbing her in the back would at this point be a natural evolution of what he's already done to her. And he would be the fourth person to do that. What a hyper-competent master schemer she is. I think she's been fooled more than anyone.

[Alanar]

The Jailor is a giant blue man who talks in a deep voice with voice effects talking about death and 'knowing what must be done'. Even if Blizzard hadn't told you he's so obviously, incredibly generically evil that anyone claiming otherwise really makes me ponder.

Yea.. I had the same feeling, they could have atleast made him say something interesting.


He's lips tho.

[Raven]

Well Illidan used the term insects once

And he still isnt a good guy, we just happened to share the same enemy Legion.

[Thage]

First, never trust a trailer.

Second, I'm going to cry laughing if her motives are seriously so juvenile as a teenage temper tantrum over life being unfair. Like, I get the whole "Ayn Rand changed my life, DAD! It's not a phase, DAD!" vibe she's had going on throughout BFA, because she's always been a petty brat who loses her cool as soon as things stop going her way or end up slightly too inconvenient for her liking, forcing her to adapt on the fly to account for her own fuckups, but this would just be the final nail in any hope she had of being an actual character and not just what some confused middle-aged dude who doesn't understand his kids think a complicated character who's hip with the youth would sound like.

Third, blah blah someone took the wrong lesson home while reading Nietzsche blah blah. She can't even maintain character consistency between her internal monologues and what the game reveals to us over time, elsewise her internal monologue in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, War Crimes, and Before the Storm would be significantly different.

Fourth, best part of that whole clip vid was watching Nathanos get absolutely clowned on after once again getting too big for his britches around us.

[Nagawithlegs]

I think Jailer wants to do a hard reset on the universe and Sylvanas thinks that's what has to be done for her to get a better life.

[Quaade]

Change has no inherent value, but even if it did, which it doesn't, your argument is self-defeating because in this case it'd be Sylvanas who is the agent of change and the guys so old they're literally called 'The Eternal Ones', who're the forces of the status quo, so an ideology of change for the sake of change would endorse her success.

I'm trying to process this, and as someone who has an education in understanding change and activity, this is stupid beyond reason.

Change is inevitable as time itself only goes one way and that's forward, it progresses. The only way you can keep things as they are is with violent regression.

Change is just a word and has no inherent value, no words have that other than what we put into it. "Dictator" is a word that started out with given a positive meaning that has later morphed into a negative meaning by the association we gave it. Your argument is pocket-grade philosophy from someone trying to sound smart without actually being it. You've no idea how stupid that argument makes you look to me.

[Combatbutler]

And he still isnt a good guy, we just happened to share the same enemy Legion.

You don't have to be a good guy" as a person" to be a protagonist, meaning the good guy in the narrative.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm trying to process this, and as someone who has an education in understanding change and activity, this is stupid beyond reason.

Change is inevitable as time itself only goes one way and that's forward, it progresses. The only way you can keep things as they are is with violent regression.

Change is just a word and has no inherent value, no words have that other than what we put into it. "Dictator" is a word that started out with given a positive meaning that has later morphed into a negative meaning by the association we gave it. Your argument is pocket-grade philosophy from someone trying to sound smart without actually being it. You've no idea how stupid that argument makes you look to me.

You're making no argument here. You're commenting on the inevitability of change while I'm commenting that change can be negative, so wanting it for the sake of it is a waste of time. I'm not engaging in some pseudointellectual argument on the meaning of the word, but that change can easily be towards something worse that came before. And that your own stupid position requires you to support Sylvanas as she represents change over the extant status quo.

@Alanar

His design is really uninspired. The skeletal look and the bearded one are both more visually interesting, though even his cinematic model has that Nosferatu vibe which his in-game model doesn't carry.

[Thage]

The main issue I find with her characterization besides everything I've gabbed on about for years on end by this point is that she's being used as a hyping tool for the Blue Man and the Blue Man is deeply, incorrigibly dull. Everything interesting about him is centered around backstory, actions and implication and is consequently wasted if he shows up and bombastically boasts with lines that could come from Generic Dungeon Boss #235252.

What I suspect will happen given that Sylvanas believes the Jailor is a good man, the high chance she's in the Maw by way of his machinations and the dev interviews about learning 'why' Arthas did so, as if we didn't already know per his own story is the following - Arthas will be redeemed and his actions pinned on the Jailor with Sylvanas learning the Blue Man lied to her and fighting against him in some hackneyed redemption story of her own.

Hey, so long as Shadowlands ends with her seeing some kind of actual comeuppance for assisting the Jailor's omnicide and Arthas actually given his fair shake in Revendreth, I don't care what they have to grunt out in the company bathroom and smear across the paper to support that conclusion at this point.

[ohwell]

Which is I'm sure is how they are going to treat Sylvanas. Legion's story definitely portrays him as a Christ-figure, who did terrible things to achieve a auspicious goal. In other words, the people who hate sylvanas will be able to continue to hate her & the people who like her will feel vindicated.

I mean let's be honest, his goal wasn't even that great. It wasn't to save Azeroth it was to stop the Legion because the Legion wanted him dead.

[Thage]

His design is really uninspired. The skeletal look and the bearded one are both more visually interesting, though even his cinematic model has that Nosferatu vibe which his in-game model doesn't carry.

I had to do a double take because I swear I've seen the Jailor in a Dark Sun rulebook, or maybe in one of the now-endless Soulsborne clone/ripoff games that ape the dark aesthetic with none of the meaty worldbuilding behind it.

[Super Dickmann]

Hey, so long as Shadowlands ends with her seeing some kind of actual comeuppance for assisting the Jailor's omnicide and Arthas actually given his fair shake in Revendreth, I don't care what they have to grunt out in the company bathroom and smear across the paper to support that conclusion at this point.

Both her and Arthas should be in the Maw as I'm concerned, but Arthas being redeemed gets on my tits more because any retroactive removal of his culpability for his own actions defeats the purpose of his arc, i.e that he had plenty of turns in the road and decided to do it anyway. His story works because he's the architect of his own failures, not because he was the puppet of a giant blue man trying to break reality who nevertheless felt the need to pit two puppets (Ner'zhul and the dreadlords) against each other.

Re: the Jailor. I think he could be done well, this kind of ancient evil apathetic of life except as currency can turn out well. Even the idea of people like Sylvanas and Devos projecting virtues onto a cosmic being that doesn't give one bit of a shit about their angst is fine. The problem is that you shouldn't humanize this character. Every line of his needs to be necessary. Someone older than time would not waste his breath threatening specks who as far as his perspective is concerned will inevitably keel over and end up in the Maw anyway. But nevermind writing, it's his design that really irritates me, given how the look of the Maw I'm actually pretty pleased with.

[Combatbutler]

Both her and Arthas should be in the Maw as I'm concerned, but Arthas being redeemed gets on my tits more because any retroactive removal of his culpability for his own actions defeats the purpose of his arc, i.e that he had plenty of turns in the road and decided to do it anyway. His story works because he's the architect of his own failures, not because he was the puppet of a giant blue man trying to break reality who nevertheless felt the need to pit two puppets (Ner'zhul and the dreadlords) against each other.

Not to mention Arthas is a main culprit in causing this whole dilemma, by creating the monster that is undead sylvanas, both should just face oblivion

[ohwell]

No, I'm saying "N'Zoth was a universal threat whose victory would've ruined the Jailer's plans, and Sylvanas underestimated the extent of the threat he posed; furthermore she, like Azshara, only had a very minor part to play in his defeat, as Magni, MOTHER, and Azeroth herself are those who saved the player from becoming one of N'Zoth's servants after losing the fight."

I'm also not saying anything new. This is basic plot.

From a storyline that came out one year ago.

Except she was more than likely aware of everything that was done in the heart chamber and felt that everyone was adequately prepared to end him while still having many people die in the process. She arranged for him to be freed which arranged for him to be killed while also killing others. The jailer wouldn't have wanted Nzoth to win either so they had to have a contingency plan or KNEW what we already had was just barely enough.

[Alanar]

@Alanar
His design is really uninspired. The skeletal look and the bearded one are both more visually interesting, though even his cinematic model has that Nosferatu vibe which his in-game model doesn't carry.

When I first saw that image I was sold tbh. I agree the jailer looks kinda bland and for some reason uninteresting, heres hoping he is not as one dimensional as he looks and speaks so far. Feels like more of the same ..

[Geotaku21]

The Jailer is an ancient evil who seeks to consume the entire cosmos, as mentioned several times by Blizzard. Sylvanas, in her twisted mind, believes she's doing a favour to all mortals, but the Jailer is entirely self-serving. That's why I believe Jailer will eventually betray Sylvanas, he just wants to consume everything. He probably told Sylvanas that he'd set everyone free in order to bring her to his side, but he sees her as another disposable tool, and he certainly doesn't feel altruistic towards mortals.

However I don't think Sylvanas will redeem herself in any way, she's wronged too many people to be forgiven, and I think Blizzard learned from the Grommash fiasco. However, I do think Sylvanas might feel some remorse once the Jailer backstabs her, but nothing more.

The Jailer, and not Sylvanas, is the main villain and central driving force of Shadowlands. Never forget that.

I believe Sylvanas said she was tired of being a pawn of a higher power back in Legion or BfA. She's definitely just using the Jailer. She has other plans beyond the Jailer.