Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Felya]

I see you learned a new word. Explain how I am making money here? What you guys imagine I am up to is the most elaborate fanfiction on this forum and to be honest I am flattered to have such motives and backstory ascribed to me.

Grifting isn’t predicated on money...

I don’t understand how pointing out you consistently shilling for Trump, be it willfully or not, is any sort of fan fiction... you need to get over your self.

[Zan15]

Plus tech already is an insanely precarious line of work with ridiculous working hours. Unlike say Coal Mining which I guess Edge has a bitter dislike of; Idk why, I mean it is a solid unionized line of work (Something that the gig economy focused Silicon Valley will never want to exist), and has fought actual bloody battles for their gains and communities. Versus the world of atomized, over worked, underpaid, and completely precarious Silicon Valley gig slaves.

Solid line of work my ass.

Its a blight on this country and its taxpayers.

They suck all the value out of the land and its workers and stick taxpayers with:
- Unpaid pensions
- Environmental clean up in the Billions
- Blight on workers health and Medicare/Medicaid.
- Effect on health of people whom live around coal


https://www.google.com/search?q=the+...hrome&ie=UTF-8


350-500-750 billion dollars a year. Depends on how many categories you want to include in each study

[Theodarzna]

Maybe you should check up the definitions and see money isn't a factor

You'll have to explain what you are on about. I'm not trying to do anything except post things. What you interpret as my motive is your own conjecture. I've never made any attempt at being on your side, that is again your conjecture. You, someone whom I guess thinks in neat stereotypes and easy to grasp boxes, are very flustered that I don't roleplay the role that is easy for you to respond to. So you must assume there is a trick here.

I'm not pretending to be on your team, I pretty openly dislike your "team" schtick.

[Felya]

Versus the world of atomized, over worked, underpaid, and completely precarious Silicon Valley gig slaves.

This is lunacy... How can you say silicone valley is underpaid?

- - - Updated - - -

You'll have to explain what you are on about. I'm not trying to do anything except post things. What you interpret as my motive is your own conjecture. I've never made any attempt at being on your side, that is again your conjecture. You, someone whom I guess thinks in neat stereotypes and easy to grasp boxes, are very flustered that I don't roleplay the role that is easy for you to respond to. So you must assume there is a trick here.

I'm not pretending to be on your team, I pretty openly dislike your "team" schtick.

This whole treats bullshit is your grift. This is is how you hide when being confronted with being wrong. You devolve everything into sides... just like Trump can’t believe that 80 million people can find him repugnant, not all of his supporters.

[unfilteredJW]

You'll have to explain what you are on about. I'm not trying to do anything except post things. What you interpret as my motive is your own conjecture. I've never made any attempt at being on your side, that is again your conjecture. You, someone whom I guess thinks in neat stereotypes and easy to grasp boxes, are very flustered that I don't roleplay the role that is easy for you to respond to. So you must assume there is a trick here.

I'm not pretending to be on your team, I pretty openly dislike your "team" schtick.

Your RP isn’t nuanced or deep.

Its shit posting and copy pasta from your husbands Facebook feed.

[Felya]

Your RP isn’t nuanced or deep.

Persona... that’s the word they used in 2016... when they RPed as a Jung follower...

[Edge-]

This is lunacy... How can you say silicone valley is underpaid?

Pretty sure Theo is talking about the gig workers, not the actual employees of those gig companies (which gig workers should be, fuck Prop 22). Which she's absolutely correct in, gig workers are largely exploited to high hell.

[Theodarzna]

Solid line of work my ass.

Its a blight on this country and its taxpayers.

They suck all the value out of the land and its workers and stick taxpayers with:
- Unpaid pensions
- Environmental clean up in the Billions
- Blight on workers health and Medicare/Medicaid.
- Effect on health of people whom live around coal

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+...hrome&ie=UTF-8

350-500-750 billion dollars a year. Depends on how many categories you want to include in each study

Pensions are unpaid, however pensions were fought for, and prior to the Post-Reagan era of Baby Boomer presidents full steaming ahead on gutting them, the power of Unions was strong.

As for medicare and medicaid, gosh, maybe we should open that up for everyone, and have a Universal Health Care system.

Coal itself is pretty toxic; however the number of jobs related to it and its extraction is hard to replace. Of-course the entire Midwest isn't Coal fields, but a vast industrial zone or former industrial zone. All of which had high rates of Unionization; and Tech is notoriously precarious, assuming you get those jobs. Just look at how Blizzard treats its programmers.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty sure Theo is talking about the gig workers, not the actual employees of those gig companies (which gig workers should be, fuck Prop 22). Which she's absolutely correct in, gig workers are largely exploited to high hell.

Even entry level programmers are not paid super well, and there is no way they are going to pay a person living in West Virginia the pay rate of their San Jose residents. Again, to quote such posters as "Edge-" on here, we gotta be realistic. After all if in 20 years these programs haven't led to jobs and good pay, why the heck would they start now?

And if you suggest political action? I'd ask why it works for this plan of yours and not a Universal Health Care plan, or say just simply cutting people a check?

[Zan15]

Pensions are unpaid, however pensions were fought for, and prior to the Post-Reagan era of Baby Boomer presidents full steaming ahead on gutting them, the power of Unions was strong.

As for medicare and medicaid, gosh, maybe we should open that up for everyone, and have a Universal Health Care system.

Coal itself is pretty toxic; however the number of jobs related to it and its extraction is hard to replace. Of-course the entire Midwest isn't Coal fields, but a vast industrial zone or former industrial zone. All of which had high rates of Unionization; and Tech is notoriously precarious, assuming you get those jobs. Just look at how Blizzard treats its programmers.

Gosh maybe these coal companies should have paid for their employees healthcare?

Opening up and going UHC would just end up costing taxpayers even more money to subsidies the health problem of coal workers instead of the company bearing the cost. Unless you are willing (as i support) special taxation on companies to fund UHC when they are health hazard industries that will cost UHC more then the standard average cost per employee.



Coal is just another "important" industry that the country will pivot away from successfully, its not different then industries past.

[Felya]

Even entry level programmers are not paid super well, and there is no way they are going to pay a person living in West Virginia the pay rate of their San Jose residents. Again, to quote such posters as "Edge-" on here, we gotta be realistic. After all if in 20 years these programs haven't led to jobs and good pay, why the heck would they start now?

This isn’t true... it’s true for gig workers outside development scope. But, it’s an absurd thing to say about development. Further more, as entry level, you are likely to be an independent contractor. Even when complaining about crunch time, which doesn’t even apply to vast majority of developers, the issue is never pay. I can write up a novel of negatives working in IT over the last 25 years, but pay is not one of them.

Oh and if you are looking for work in IT, in Seattle... you will see ads that advertise relocation fees. Not only are they going to pay comparable, they will pay you to move. I was offered 5k to move to Atlanta, to be a glorified system administrator, in 2001.

And if you suggest political action? I'd ask why it works for this plan of yours and not a Universal Health Care plan, or say just simply cutting people a check?

You can ask for anything you want, you will not be getting it... and it has nothing to do with democrats.

[Edge-]

Even entry level programmers are not paid super well, and there is no way they are going to pay a person living in West Virginia the pay rate of their San Jose residents. Again, to quote such posters as "Edge-" on here, we gotta be realistic. After all if in 20 years these programs haven't led to jobs and good pay, why the heck would they start now?

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/s...59_KO14,43.htm

$91K average salary in SF, which is not enough to live in the city (fuck CoL there) but still plenty of money and enough to live outside the city. Ranges from $66K (good wage, but not for the area) to $116K which is an incredible entry level salary on many, many levels.

Looking elsewhere outside of tech hubs -

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/n...urce=searchBtn

Nashville TN, $61K average salary. Definitely lower, but also much lower cost of living in the area so the buying power in more than it would bein in the SF Bay Area.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/e...RCH_KO0,22.htm

And nationally appears to be around $67K.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US...er/Hourly_Rate

Which when compared with the apparent annual pay in the coal industry, which is between $27-72K, has a higher average and is closer to what higher end earners would earn.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US...er/Hourly_Rate

And still $24-54K for manufacturing in general in the US, so even the entry level wages in a place like Nashville are well above what the pay for a manufacturing employee are.

So yeah, not buying your argument in the slightest. They could take lower paying jobs compared to their Bay Area colleagues and still have more purchasing power for them.

Granted, as I've stated I think that the value of labor should be the quality of labor and that you shouldn't get paid more just because you live somewhere more expensive. But then again...I don't see any problem with CoL offsets for folks living in more expensive parts of the country so that they can enjoy similar buying power to their colleagues who live in more affordable areas. Equity!

And if you suggest political action? I'd ask why it works for this plan of yours and not a Universal Health Care plan, or say just simply cutting people a check?

Hey, I've been on the "We need to cut a whole lot more checks" train since like...April.

And I'd suggest political action, yes. Just like I suggest political action for the move towards M4A. It's just that, as I've repeatedly said, the path to M4A is likely going to be a long one and I'd rather prepare for that more realistic possibility instead of putting all our eggs in a basket like, "If we elect Sanders we'll totes get it!" as if there's some magic wand that suddenly whips up Congressional support that has never existed, and popular support that exists for the theory of M4A but hasn't appeared when it comes to actual plans for a M4A transition.

[Theodarzna]

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/s...59_KO14,43.htm

$91K average salary in SF, which is not enough to live in the city (fuck CoL there) but still plenty of money and enough to live outside the city. Ranges from $66K (good wage, but not for the area) to $116K which is an incredible entry level salary on many, many levels.

Looking elsewhere outside of tech hubs -

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/n...urce=searchBtn

Nashville TN, $61K average salary. Definitely lower, but also much lower cost of living in the area so the buying power in more than it would bein in the SF Bay Area.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/e...RCH_KO0,22.htm

And nationally appears to be around $67K.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US...er/Hourly_Rate

Which when compared with the apparent annual pay in the coal industry, which is between $27-72K, has a higher average and is closer to what higher end earners would earn.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US...er/Hourly_Rate

And still $24-54K for manufacturing in general in the US, so even the entry level wages in a place like Nashville are well above what the pay for a manufacturing employee are.

So yeah, not buying your argument in the slightest. They could take lower paying jobs compared to their Bay Area colleagues and still have more purchasing power for them.

Granted, as I've stated I think that the value of labor should be the quality of labor and that you shouldn't get paid more just because you live somewhere more expensive. But then again...I don't see any problem with CoL offsets for folks living in more expensive parts of the country so that they can enjoy similar buying power to their colleagues who live in more affordable areas. Equity!

Again, let history be our guide, in twenty years of "Learn to Code" has that actually worked or led to the pay rates? No, it hasn't. Short of nationalization and serious ironfisted tactics, Silicon Valley won't agree to anything unless forced and given their stranglehold on the current administration and the fact that apparently Anti-Trust laws don't apply to them, and the strength at which they get their way, Liberal little California just ensured that the Gig-Economy is an irrefutable fact of law now.

So lets borrow what Rahm Emanuel said, that unemployed retail workers, miners, former factory workers all of those people will learn to code, Short of strict wage controls, do you think Silicon Valley is going to pay more, the same, or less given that they will have a glut of some 200k plus no "trained" (Remember we are talking about computer science classes at the local community college), and this is also assuming every single one of those 200k people has the aptitude or skills for that sort of job. Because we are not talking about "Coal Miners" We are talking about the entire unemployed. Remember the Kloubachar plan, 4k in money for skills training, no job promises at all, just "Hey, here is a coupon to idk learn to code or whatever.... good luck." which by the way this is the same government whom had the resolve to print a trillion dollars a day to shovel into a vast furnace to keep Blackrock afloat.

[Felya]

@Edge- I would add that the median pay in US for a house hold is 68k. All of the starting jobs you listed were either within a couple of 1000 or well above it, at the start. These are some of the best paying jobs there are and most do not have the crunch times you hear about from UBI soft or EA... those are not the norm.

[Theodarzna]

Gosh maybe these coal companies should have paid for their employees healthcare?

Opening up and going UHC would just end up costing taxpayers even more money to subsidies the health problem of coal workers instead of the company bearing the cost. Unless you are willing (as i support) special taxation on companies to fund UHC when they are health hazard industries that will cost UHC more then the standard average cost per employee.

Coal is just another "important" industry that the country will pivot away from successfully, its not different then industries past.

Or.... We have a UHS.

My personal idea would just be to cut them a check, build nuclear plants in the region, and in the example of Coal people, train the miners kids to work the power plants and otherwise just grant them homesteads and expand the park ranger corps in the area and convert a lot of people to forestry and land preservation. Give the former miners full pay, and tax the shit out of Silicon Valley and the businesses that benefit from free trade to give back to the people ruined by it in general.

[Felya]

Again, let history be our guide, in twenty years of "Learn to Code" has that actually worked or led to the pay rates? No, it hasn't.

What do you mea it hasn’t? It hasn’t impacted other jobs... like coal mining... but, entry level is at nearly or above the median house hold income. Yes, coal jobs have not increased at the rate to match development... I wonder why... :\

Short of nationalization and serious ironfisted tactics, Silicon Valley won't agree to anything unless forced and given their stranglehold on the current administration and the fact that apparently Anti-Trust laws don't apply to them, and the strength at which they get their way, Liberal little California just ensured that the Gig-Economy is an irrefutable fact of law now.

You are conflating two different things... this is nonsense as a result.

So lets borrow what Rahm Emanuel said, that unemployed retail workers, miners, former factory workers all of those people will learn to code, Short of strict wage controls, do you think Silicon Valley is going to pay more, the same, or less given that they will have a glut of some 200k plus no "trained" (Remember we are talking about computer science classes at the local community college), and this is also assuming every single one of those 200k people has the aptitude or skills for that sort of job. Because we are not talking about "Coal Miners" We are talking about the entire unemployed. Remember the Kloubachar plan, 4k in money for skills training, no job promises at all, just "Hey, here is a coupon to idk learn to code or whatever.... good luck." which by the way this is the same government whom had the resolve to print a trillion dollars a day to shovel into a vast furnace to keep Blackrock afloat.

Uhm... all of the developers I work with, started at community college. I’m the only one that didn’t and ai dropped out... the reason pay is so high for entry level developers, is because of the demand and shortages of actual developers.

I am sorry, but I think it’s ludicrous to believe that there wouldn’t be enough IT jobs to cover 50000 thousand people... that’s how many coal miners there are... There are 4.6 million IT workers... it can take 50k more...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_m..._United_States

Where are you getting 200k workers from? There were less than 50k in 2016 and it dropping. Everything you are saying is absolutely not true:

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/pres.../cb16-139.html

Median annual earnings of IT occupation workers were $80,665 in 2014, or almost twice as much as the median earnings of the total workforce in 2014.

[Orange Joe]

You'll have to explain what you are on about. I'm not trying to do anything except post things. What you interpret as my motive is your own conjecture. I've never made any attempt at being on your side, that is again your conjecture. You, someone whom I guess thinks in neat stereotypes and easy to grasp boxes, are very flustered that I don't roleplay the role that is easy for you to respond to. So you must assume there is a trick here.

I'm not pretending to be on your team, I pretty openly dislike your "team" schtick.

Thats too funny.... You do know post history is a thing right?


And I get you don't roleplay. Being a lying hypocrite is who you really are.

[Theodarzna]

Thats too funny.... You do know post history is a thing right?


And I get you don't roleplay. Being a lying hypocrite is who you really are.

You kvetching is purely "NO! You can't favor an NHS! That is My teams thing to say we want, you are going off script!"

[Orange Joe]

You kvetching is purely "NO! You can't favor an NHS! That is My teams thing to say we want, you are going off script!"

What is "my team"? What team do you think I'm a part of?

[Edge-]

Because we are not talking about "Coal Miners" We are talking about the entire unemployed. Remember the Kloubachar plan, 4k in money for skills training, no job promises at all, just "Hey, here is a coupon to idk learn to code or whatever.... good luck." which by the way this is the same government whom had the resolve to print a trillion dollars a day to shovel into a vast furnace to keep Blackrock afloat.

Cool. Klobuchar's plan was garbage and we agree on that. It's not just "coal miners" (hence why I included generic manufacturing job numbers) and we agree on that. Blackrock and investment firms can go bottom-up for the most part IMO, fuck those vultures, even if them all going bottom-up would have a lot of unfortunate downstream effects given the way our economy is set up and functions right now.

I'm all for doing more of what Germany has done with their apprenticeship program - https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...ther-countries

Spending meaningful amounts more on training and education. Working to get folks the experience they need so they can hit the ground running. And having a government-backed system that can help get more folks good paying jobs with or without college when they're ready to enter the workforce, or when they need to make a career change.

It's not all just "learn to code", but again, that's offered as a "practical" solution to these people who don't want to move to where the work is or cannot afford to do so without assistance. If these folks are willing to learn new trades, the government should absolutely be working to help get them the education and experience needed, and be there to assist with relocation if they need to move to another city/state.

[Felya]

What is "my team"? What team do you think I'm a part of?

Don’t even pretend...