Did Tyrande and Thalyssra know each other? Does Suramar remember her and Malfurion?

[OwenBurton]

I'm surprised that there was so little interaction between Tyrande and her former kin in Suramar. The kaldorei reappearing at their former crown jewel city should have been a major breakthrough, but most of the nightborne seem to have as much reaction to the Darnassians as they would to the gnomes or tauren showing up. (There is actually no special interaction for kaldorei players in the Broken Isles at all, except maybe for that bird in Stormheim, you would expect the Court of Farondis, the Dreamweavers, the Moon Guard, the Valewalker Farodin hermit, the Illidari, the Wardens or the nightborne to have some curiosity or interest at seeing their brethren, but apparently not so.)

Most of the major kaldorei characters come from Suramar. Maiev and Tyrande were priestesses there, Jarod was Captain of Suramar's Guard, while Malfurion and Illidan grew up there. Do they still know who they are? Does the average person know anything about them? Do they admire them for their efforts in the conflict?

And is it possible that Thalyssra and Tyrande has some kind of personal grudge dating back 10,000 years that influenced their hostility towards each other? Did they ever encounter each other, when they lived within the city together?

[ravenmoon]

I'm surprised that there was no so little interaction between Tyrande and her former kin in Suramar. The kaldorei reappearing at the former city should have been a major breakthrough, but most of the nightborne seem to have as much reaction to the Darnassians as they would to the gnomes or tauren showing up. (There is actually no special interaction for kaldorei players in the Broken Isles at all, except maybe for that bird in Stormheim, you would expect the Court of Farondis, the Dreamweavers, the Wardens or the nightborne to have some curiosity or interest.)

Most of the major kaldorei characters come from Suramar. Maiev and Tyrande were priestesses there, Jarod was Captain of Suramar's Guard, while Malfurion and Illidan grew up there. Do they still know who they are? Does the average person know anything about them? Do they admire them for their efforts in the conflict?

And is it possible that Thalyssra and Tyrande has some kind of personal grudge dating back 10,000 years that influenced their hostility towards each other? Did they ever encounter each other, when they lived within the city together?

You aren't the only one surprised. I was surprised, then disappointed, then appalled that they didn't. It is clear they knew of each other though. You only need read wotA, and pay attention to what Tyrande says to Thalyssra, what the Moonguard, and other Nightborne say in places like Tel'anor - they are very much kaldorei aware.

However they did change a lot of content involving the Darnassian night elf group later on. The entire broken shore questline and story was changed, it was centred around Tyrande and the priesthood, but ion mentioned they felt there wasn't enough legion effects and presence, then later wanted the Class order halls to have more of a presence and role, so the night elves were sacrificed, the Tyrande storyline scrapped.

Initially in 7.1, Elisande would goad Tyrande about their mutual acquaintance, i.e. Malfurion - establishing blizzard fully aware.

Suramar in game is built exactly according to the Suramar in the War of the Ancients trilogy too, if you read that book you'd see the entire night elven section of the broken isle, from Suramar through to Val'sharah is lifted from that book, with additions like Azsuna added. The night elf section was all about the origins and history of the kaldorei who were the ones who first encountered and defeated the Legion. Highmountain and Stormheim were made Tauren and Vrykul because they felt having 5 elven zones would be too boring.

finally even the last zone, Thal'dranath was too much night elven to deal with, and unlike the Sunwell plateau that really finished the blood elf story in that expansion, we instead went to Argus and finished the Legion, which may have been more exciting for everyone but night elf fans - the expansion ended with poor or bad resolutions and a lot of changes.

They started with a grand night elf vision and continuously chipped away.

The biggest one in my opinion was the Nightborne becoming playable, then becoming a horde race. I don't believe that was the original goal, I feel the Nightborne were meant to be healed by the Arcan'dor back to night elves and be a Highborne group facilitating the civilization wing of the kaldorei - it would serve as the new capital after the destruction of Teldrassil, while the druids would have a new home and purely druidic world tree in Shaladrassil, the sentinels would have a new base bastion in Black rook hold, , while the Highborne would have their own country in Azsuna. The demon hunters would stick to the fel affected areas while Suramar would be the capital for all groups. The priests would have their main cathedral restored as the HQ, and have temples in both Val'sharah and Azsuna serving both druidic and Highborne communities.


But the love for the Nightborne was so high, that they made the entire group of Suramar remain Nightborne, whereas i feel we would have had a remnant group of exiled enemies, who may have joined the horde later. The decision for the Nightborne to go horde i think was horde bias, they couldn't resist giving the horde all of it, and making excuses to why it would be so, it helped that the blood elf community badly wanted them - but it was easy to see their interest was purely superficial and the Nightborne on the horde contributed nothing of real relevance, while on the alliance with the night elves would be a significant lore development and race development.

In the end passion and desire won over the good of the game, imo, all this is my opinion of things, i think they made an impulsive choice that frankly ruined the integrity of everything that transpired in 7.0 - that the Nightborne joined the horde that were set to destroy Teldrassil in a genocide flew in the face of everything the victors were written to be. I don't think it was the initial plan at all, it was decided after 7.0 was released, and while 7.1 was being implemented. 7.1 was altered in several ways to facilitate this decision.

[Rendark]

I tend to feel bad for night elf fans. Even when they get something cool like Tyrande going full vengeance mode they fuck it up.

[Darknessvamp]

Clearly Val'sharah exhausted them in terms of connecting the Major Night Elf characters to the Broken Isles after they scrambled to make them more than unimpressive landmasses around the Sunken Tomb of Sargeras.

[GreenJesus]

I tend to feel bad for night elf fans. Even when they get something cool like Tyrande going full vengeance mode they fuck it up.

I love that meme of Nathanos sending Tyrande a thank you card for sending him to Sylvanas.

Also, so where's Tyrande? We rescued Baine and we are probably going to rescue Thrall, Anduin, and Jaina sometime soon, but what about Tyrande? Is she going to be a raid boss in 9.2?

[Combatbutler]

Tyrande knew Thalyssra, she says as much during their interaction in front of suramar and it is rather apparent that there is no love lost between them, as far as Tyrande is concerned the people in suramar are dead to her.

[Sesethi]

Compared to night elf war 3 conterparts, the wow night elf handling is a complete joke. Lost their city, Tyrande from WoW is just hurt durr and selfish, only cares about malfurion, while war3 Tyrande did what was best for her people at any cost, such as releasing ilidan to help fight the legion.

[Combatbutler]

Also, so where's Tyrande? We rescued Baine and we are probably going to rescue Thrall, Anduin, and Jaina sometime soon, but what about Tyrande? Is she going to be a raid boss in 9.2?

Currently rampaging through Thorgast, wrecking anything in her path while looking for Sylvanas.

[cparle87]

I'm surprised that there was no so little interaction between Tyrande and her former kin in Suramar. The kaldorei reappearing at the former city should have been a major breakthrough, but most of the nightborne seem to have as much reaction to the Darnassians as they would to the gnomes or tauren showing up. (There is actually no special interaction for kaldorei players in the Broken Isles at all, except maybe for that bird in Stormheim, you would expect the Court of Farondis, the Dreamweavers, the Wardens or the nightborne to have some curiosity or interest.)

Most of the major kaldorei characters come from Suramar. Maiev and Tyrande were priestesses there, Jarod was Captain of Suramar's Guard, while Malfurion and Illidan grew up there. Do they still know who they are? Does the average person know anything about them? Do they admire them for their efforts in the conflict?

And is it possible that Thalyssra and Tyrande has some kind of personal grudge dating back 10,000 years that influenced their hostility towards each other? Did they ever encounter each other, when they lived within the city together?

Well, it wasn't really reappearing. They had relations with the Moon Guard up in their stronghold. So it's not like when Kael'thas met Malfurion and went "Woah you're a night elf we haven't seen your kind in 7,000 years!" As for their relations, I don't know. I just presumed that Tyrande was being all holier than thou against the nightborne because she saw them as having not learned from the mistakes of the Highborne that brought the Legion down on everyone.

As for the rest of your point, Suramar was a huge city. Saying that a group of people all lived in New York City therefore they should at least know of each other is a bit silly.

[Raetary]

I love that meme of Nathanos sending Tyrande a thank you card for sending him to Sylvanas.

Also, so where's Tyrande? We rescued Baine and we are probably going to rescue Thrall, Anduin, and Jaina sometime soon, but what about Tyrande? Is she going to be a raid boss in 9.2?

You help her in the Night fae campaign.

She's currently marauding through the Maw, looking for Sylvanas.

[GreenJesus]

You help her in the Night fae campaign.

She's currently marauding through the Maw, looking for Sylvanas.

Oh she's in a covenant only quest line for the furry covenant? Damn. Too bad. It will probably be kind of awkward as a horde player helping Tyrande considering the player character was central in the Darkshore and Teldrassil attack.

[Rendark]

I love that meme of Nathanos sending Tyrande a thank you card for sending him to Sylvanas.

Also, so where's Tyrande? We rescued Baine and we are probably going to rescue Thrall, Anduin, and Jaina sometime soon, but what about Tyrande? Is she going to be a raid boss in 9.2?

I could see them making her a bad guy. Like her vengeance is to high now so she's attacking everyone in her way.

[Sorrowseer]

Oh she's in a covenant only quest line for the furry covenant? Damn. Too bad. It will probably be kind of awkward as a horde player helping Tyrande considering the player character was central in the Darkshore and Teldrassil attack.

*high as a kite blizzard lore writer* nah fam the herd player was not evil, that was all Sylvanas m8 trust me fam, btw Syllvanas is morally grey fam yeah m9 so Tyrande will love to have your help... *starts drooling and passes out*

Just another symptom of the diseas of a two faction game with the top standing on their hill planting their flag and not changing their stance no matter the outcome, you lose nuance, you lose faction stories, you lose real raw development of a story as it HAS to be shoe horned back into two factions, and shoe horning nighborne into herd was, well, heck, i still cannot accept it.

[Rhlor]

You aren't the only one surprised. I was surprised, then disappointed, then appalled that they didn't. It is clear they knew of each other though. You only need read wotA, and pay attention to what Tyrande says to Thalyssra, what the Moonguard, and other Nightborne say in places like Tel'anor - they are very much kaldorei aware.

However they did change a lot of content involving the Darnassian night elf group later on. The entire broken shore questline and story was changed, it was centred around Tyrande and the priesthood, but ion mentioned they felt there wasn't enough legion effects and presence, then later wanted the Class order halls to have more of a presence and role, so the night elves were sacrificed, the Tyrande storyline scrapped.

Initially in 7.1, Elisande would goad Tyrande about their mutual acquaintance, i.e. Malfurion - establishing blizzard fully aware.

Suramar in game is built exactly according to the Suramar in the War of the Ancients trilogy too, if you read that book you'd see the entire night elven section of the broken isle, from Suramar through to Val'sharah is lifted from that book, with additions like Azsuna added. The night elf section was all about the origins and history of the kaldorei who were the ones who first encountered and defeated the Legion. Highmountain and Stormheim were made Tauren and Vrykul because they felt having 5 elven zones would be too boring.

finally even the last zone, Thal'dranath was too much night elven to deal with, and unlike the Sunwell plateau that really finished the blood elf story in that expansion, we instead went to Argus and finished the Legion, which may have been more exciting for everyone but night elf fans - the expansion ended with poor or bad resolutions and a lot of changes.

They started with a grand night elf vision and continuously chipped away.

The biggest one in my opinion was the Nightborne becoming playable, then becoming a horde race. I don't believe that was the original goal, I feel the Nightborne were meant to be healed by the Arcan'dor back to night elves and be a Highborne group facilitating the civilization wing of the kaldorei - it would serve as the new capital after the destruction of Teldrassil, while the druids would have a new home and purely druidic world tree in Shaladrassil, the sentinels would have a new base bastion in Black rook hold, , while the Highborne would have their own country in Azsuna. The demon hunters would stick to the fel affected areas while Suramar would be the capital for all groups. The priests would have their main cathedral restored as the HQ, and have temples in both Val'sharah and Azsuna serving both druidic and Highborne communities.


But the love for the Nightborne was so high, that they made the entire group of Suramar remain Nightborne, whereas i feel we would have had a remnant group of exiled enemies, who may have joined the horde later. The decision for the Nightborne to go horde i think was horde bias, they couldn't resist giving the horde all of it, and making excuses to why it would be so, it helped that the blood elf community badly wanted them - but it was easy to see their interest was purely superficial and the Nightborne on the horde contributed nothing of real relevance, while on the alliance with the night elves would be a significant lore development and race development.

In the end passion and desire won over the good of the game, imo, all this is my opinion of things, i think they made an impulsive choice that frankly ruined the integrity of everything that transpired in 7.0 - that the Nightborne joined the horde that were set to destroy Teldrassil in a genocide flew in the face of everything the victors were written to be. I don't think it was the initial plan at all, it was decided after 7.0 was released, and while 7.1 was being implemented. 7.1 was altered in several ways to facilitate this decision.

The players of the alliance from the first day wanted to exchange nightborne for playable blood elves in the alliance. it was an exchange clearly in favor of the alliance the void elves are the most played allied race and the alliance has the model of the most played horde race

[Sondrelk]

The players of the alliance from the first day wanted to exchange nightborne for playable blood elves in the alliance. it was an exchange clearly in favor of the alliance the void elves are the most played allied race and the alliance has the model of the most played horde race

It makes sense from a purely gameplay perspective.

Alliance wanted playable high elves, and if Alliance got the Horde elves then it follows that the Horde should get an Alliance race, and since the only other realistic option would be a human model for the Forsaken as an Allied Race they instead got the Nightborne which are the Night Elf model but superficially like Blood Elves enough that they could make them Horde without too much fuss.

Fomr a lore perspective it is a total mess though. For one while it is never explicitly stated, the Horde now controls most of the Broken Isles, why would the Alliance care that much about the imaginary border between Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms when the Broken Shore is right there within spitting distance.
Secondly, with the burning of Teldrassil it paints the Nightborne as unbelievably cold hearted. From the interractions we can only assume they don't immediately secede because of the attack on their kinsmen solely because Tyrande didnt immediately trust Thalyssra.
And of course as was mentioned, Nelf lore was kinda lacking in Legion, there were pieces scattered around of plot points that could have been better fleshed out, what the Kaldorei think about an entire city from the past still being active and its inhabitants alive, must be at least a few familymembers that are now reuinited.

In short the Nightborne storyline makes sense when you look at it from the perspective of the developers working backwards from wanting to give the Horde an Alliance elf race, not so much if you look at it from the perspective of a greater Night Elf/Nightborne storyline.

[Biomega]

we can only assume they don't immediately secede because of the attack on their kinsmen solely because Tyrande didnt immediately trust Thalyssra.

But that's not exactly how it played out, because you're omitting the fact that the Night Elves - Tyrande especially - basically regard the Nightborne as cowards who fled and left them fighting against Azshara and the Legion. Tyrande could have welcomed them back as kin, finally free from isolation and addiction; instead, she basically held on to a 10,000-year grudge and gave them snark and scorn. Not an olive branch, but a slap in the face. The Horde was very different, offering them a place to restart and rebuild their civilizations without recrimination or contempt. I don't think it's unreasonable they didn't immediately rush to the rescue of the people who literally gave them the could shoulder after their own hard times, kin or no kin.

[ravenmoon]

The players of the alliance from the first day wanted to exchange nightborne for playable blood elves in the alliance. it was an exchange clearly in favor of the alliance the void elves are the most played allied race and the alliance has the model of the most played horde race

Trust me the alliance will win with regards to the elves. They were alliance minded when both high elves then night elves were designed and introduced, joining the horde only happens for gameplay reasons, not lore reasons.

The horde no longer need the elves for gameplay reasons, the alliance does however. In time the void elves and high elves will dominate the Thalassian narrative, and night elf demand will continue strongly on the alliance.

The horde doesnt care for nightborne, the blood elf fans only want them as arm candy for a pretty city that was wow wonderful 4 years ago and is already fading. This is evidenced by the only topics on Nightborne seem to be centred around keeping the alliance from gaining Suramar than any real interest in them or their development, or any real love for them or the kaldorei culture they represent.

It's all shallow, at some point blizzard would see the only genuine interest for them is mainly from alliance fans, and they will see demand for void elves and high elves is far greater and more longed for on the alliance than the horde.

This will shift the elf focus entirely towards the alliance. The blood elf hardcore fan base would ensure elves continue on the horde, but the focus will shift to the alliance where it has been far more desired.

This will continue to grow as horde races are better developed, and horde fans will celebrate resurgence of natural horde races like Trolls and Orcs and Taurems - as they have felt the elf presence really ruining the horde vibe. The horde elf fanbase will shift and swing to the alliance so will development, the shift will be better for the game, everyone wins, well, the horde elf fans that remain horde won't like the alliance elves getting spotlight, but blizzard costing them that vanity and pride would reap far greater gains, overall, they'll pretty much have what they have theyd be relieved but envy as they watch the alliance elf roles grow and blossom in line with where the greater demand and interest flows.

Blizzard will see actually only a tiny number of horde zealots are into horde elves, and much larger number of alliance are far more interested in the high elves and all the night elf lore including Suramar.

[Rhlor]

Trust me the alliance will win with regards to the elves. They were alliance minded when both high elves then night elves were designed and introduced, joining the horde only happens for gameplay reasons, not lore reasons.

The horde no longer need the elves for gameplay reasons, the alliance does however. In time the void elves and high elves will dominate the Thalassian narrative, and night elf demand will continue strongly on the alliance.

The horde doesnt care for nightborne, the blood elf fans only want them as arm candy for a pretty city that was wow wonderful 4 years ago and is already fading. This is evidenced by the only topics on Nightborne seem to be centred around keeping the alliance from gaining Suramar than any real interest in them or their development, or any real love for them or the kaldorei culture they represent.

It's all shallow, at some point blizzard would see the only genuine interest for them is mainly from alliance fans, and they will see demand for void elves and high elves is far greater and more longed for on the alliance than the horde.

This will shift the elf focus entirely towards the alliance. The blood elf hardcore fan base would ensure elves continue on the horde, but the focus will shift to the alliance where it has been far more desired.

This will continue to grow as horde races are better developed, and horde fans will celebrate resurgence of natural horde races like Trolls and Orcs and Taurems - as they have felt the elf presence really ruining the horde vibe. The horde elf fanbase will shift and swing to the alliance so will development, the shift will be better for the game, everyone wins, well, the horde elf fans that remain horde won't like the alliance elves getting spotlight, but blizzard costing them that vanity and pride would reap far greater gains, overall, they'll pretty much have what they have theyd be relieved but envy as they watch the alliance elf roles grow and blossom in line with where the greater demand and interest flows.

Blizzard will see actually only a tiny number of horde zealots are into horde elves, and much larger number of alliance are far more interested in the high elves and all the night elf lore including Suramar.

I glad to you make it clear that the ultimate goal of alliance players is to steal content from the horde and their player base

[Tesshin83]

Spoiler alert: Thalyssra and Thyrande are the same person. Evidenced by them not ever being in the same room together.

[Varitok]

Hang in there, thalyssra