Is Classic too easy?

[Kralljin]

I'll tell you why retail raiding isn't popular. To raid mythic you need to do a metric ton of extra-raid crap to stay relevant, e.g. m+ and pvp. You are basically committing huge chunks of time for raid prep and you end up with gear that is equal to if not better than what raids drop just from doing m+ and arena. So basically gear isn't a reward for clearing mythic. There are only 2 long-term rewards: cutting edge achievements (which basically give you bragging rights for only one tier and then no one gives a hoot about them anymore) and gear that is unique to raids (trinkets). So why bother raiding if you're going to be only marginally better geared than a non-raiding character while putting in 2x, 3x the effort?

I don't think the "extra stuff" is the big issue.

M+ is at its core doing a single M+10 per week, that is manageable - altough i am personally not the biggest fan of M+ or the weekly chest in general.
PvP is largely optional because you need to be fairly decent at PvP to get worthwhile rewards out of it, barring the 1st season of a new expansion, hardly anyone in my guild did PvP during BfA and we still got by fairly well.

Where i agree is that the rewards just aren't worth the effort, friend of mine also did raid Mythic during BfA and always kept doing his M+ weekly on their alts and there only was like a 5 Ilvl difference between his Main (who farmed Mythic) and his alt (that just went for the weekly chest), 5 Ilvl is not worth the effort to step up from doing a weekly M+ to becoming a mythic raider.
Another factor is also that Mythic for a decent amount of time server locked, meaning if you want to raid Mythic, you're pretty much forced to transfer servers because small pop servers struggle to have more than a few Mythic guilds, which also need to fit your schedule and want to invite you in the first place.
Then there is the time factor, knocking out a single M+ is easy to do, having a fixed schedule with multiple raids per weeks is on a different level.

I find it rather silly when people proclaim that Mythic shouldn't have any rewards and just solely be there for the challenge, when in reality the tangible rewards are hardly worth it nowadays to actually raid mythic in relation to the effort it requires to get them.

[THEORACLE64]

It was never hard.

The only reason people found it hard was because nobody had a clue what they were doing.

[Echocho]

Do you have no clue what you’re talking about? You’ve never done any of these things. Have you cleared nax on classic? If you haven’t done a single one of these things, you do not comment about how hard they are.

Now link your character please.

You can see that something is hard by watching other people do it you know. Granted you could be wrong and it's actually a lot easier than it looks but you can at least ball park it. That's why you have to prove that you've done it if your claim is that it's easy, every sane person can see how incredibly difficult the world first race is when it takes 500+ pulls on a boss in order to kill it for the best players in the world. As an average player you can look at that and go "yeah that shit is insane".

You can make the same judgement if something is easy. If you've played the game enough you can easily determine the difficulty of something by just watching others do it, heck you can probably make an educated guess by just reading the dungeon journal.

[TheFirstOnes]

Classic isn't too easy. The WoW Community is just better at playing the game.

[Mosha]

You can see that something is hard by watching other people do it you know. Granted you could be wrong and it's actually a lot easier than it looks but you can at least ball park it. That's why you have to prove that you've done it if your claim is that it's easy, every sane person can see how incredibly difficult the world first race is when it takes 500+ pulls on a boss in order to kill it for the best players in the world. As an average player you can look at that and go "yeah that shit is insane".

You can make the same judgement if something is easy. If you've played the game enough you can easily determine the difficulty of something by just watching others do it, heck you can probably make an educated guess by just reading the dungeon journal.

Then link your classic character that killed kelthuzad. You keep asking people to link their characters to prove themselves that they did something before calling it easy, now link yours or don’t talk about easy something is/isn’t

[Wysmark]

Real Classic

More lag and disconnects

The time it tolk getting anywhere and summoning people if someone left a group

The lack of addons telling you what to do

Actually finding your Way in dungeons like BRD

Attunement quests and keys


Stuff just took way more time and we hadnt figured out the game yet.

Just started a Druid..... it is so slow to level.. and you keep having to take huge detours to learn specifics talents or skills. Didnt know how used I was to hubs and breadcrumb quests

[Grimreaper]

Classic isn't too easy. The WoW Community is just better at playing the game.

I'd argue the top end players of today arent any better than the top end players of old. Theres just way more players today striving to be best.

If Blizzard had made the sensible decision of disabling world-buffs within raids and launched Classic patch by patch just as it was in vanilla the raiding scene would have been a lot different. Not saying the raids wouldnt be cleared in day 1 from top-end private server nerds, but it would certainly have taken longer time and by a lot less players.

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Stuff just took way more time and we hadnt figured out the game yet.

Stop it with this argument already. There is not a single thing about classic i didnt know about back in vanilla. Absolutely nothing.

The gaming community as a whole was a lot less hardcore. Nothing else.

[jackofwind]

Stop it with this argument already. There is not a single thing about classic i didnt know about back in vanilla. Absolutely nothing.

The gaming community as a whole was a lot less hardcore. Nothing else.

I sincerely doubt that.

BoK-spam Paladin tanking?
MCP being BiS forever for FDruids?
Precisely how good Edgies are?

I'm pretty sure anything I list you're going to refute, but some things weren't even known in Vanilla so it's patently impossible for you to have known them back then.

[Mosha]

I sincerely doubt that.

BoK-spam Paladin tanking?
MCP being BiS forever for FDruids?
Precisely how good Edgies are?

I'm pretty sure anything I list you're going to refute, but some things weren't even known in Vanilla so it's patently impossible for you to have known them back then.

It doesn't matter if he refutes them, everyone here knows he is full of it if he truly believes anyone is going to believe that. Even worlds buffs FFS. Yeah sure people can say "Everyone knew world buffs were a thing". Sure, but did they know how great it was if your whole raid went out and got every single one before spawning in? Its not just 'what you know' it's establishing a meta. Even something like engineering for the slime fight in aq 40. Everyone knew about bombs, but people just didn't think about making a whole raid group of engineers for that fights so they could just ez mode it.

[Echocho]

Then link your classic character that killed kelthuzad. You keep asking people to link their characters to prove themselves that they did something before calling it easy, now link yours or don’t talk about easy something is/isn’t

What are you smoking? I haven't even mentioned linking of characters. You guys are the ones who keep going on about that nonsense.

[Zig Zug]

It was never hard.

The only reason people found it hard was because nobody had a clue what they were doing.

This.

Not sure why there are 6467 (lolwtf) pages of debate.

Probably indicative of why Classic was needed - saite the..."Classic is hard" trope?

A normal mythic in SL is WAY more complex than any content from Vanilla to late BC.

Organizing raids (corralling cats) doesn't make a game hard, by the way.

[Mosha]

What are you smoking? I haven't even mentioned linking of characters. You guys are the ones who keep going on about that nonsense.

You just said

That's why you have to prove that you've done it if your claim is that it's easy,

So go ahead, prove you've done classic nax.

[Echocho]

You just said



So go ahead, prove you've done classic nax.

I was explaining why people was asking for it. I couldn't care less what you have or haven't done in either game. I'm not going to show you mine because I really don't want you to show me yours. Show it to the ones asking for it instead and leave me out of it.

[Mosha]

I was explaining why people was asking for it. I couldn't care less what you have or haven't done in either game. I'm not going to show you mine because I really don't want me to show you yours. Show it to the ones asking for it instead and leave me out of it.

You responded to a comment chain I was specifically having with someone, you brought yourself into it dude lol.

[Grimreaper]

It doesn't matter if he refutes them, everyone here knows he is full of it if he truly believes anyone is going to believe that. Even worlds buffs FFS. Yeah sure people can say "Everyone knew world buffs were a thing". Sure, but did they know how great it was if your whole raid went out and got every single one before spawning in? Its not just 'what you know' it's establishing a meta. Even something like engineering for the slime fight in aq 40. Everyone knew about bombs, but people just didn't think about making a whole raid group of engineers for that fights so they could just ez mode it.

Errr, all of that was basic information everyone in my casual guild knew.

I'll up it by saying i knew the full attack table that was only datamined in files after TBC launched, Elitist Jerks did not. Heroic strike removing the miss-penalty for off-hand. And yes, we had a druid regularly farming Manual Crowd Pummelers for AQ/Naxx progress. We killed Onyxia with 3 players, we had players soloing arena/angerforge/tribute/full instances.

Everyone KNEW how to optimize for raids, vast majority of people just didnt care enough to do it. Every single raiding guild had bad/lazy players in them, even Death & Taxes had keyboard turners on their first KT kill.

[Mosha]

Errr, all of that was basic information everyone in my casual guild knew.

I'll up it by saying i knew the full attack table that was only datamined in files after TBC launched, Elitist Jerks did not. Heroic strike removing the miss-penalty for off-hand. And yes, we had a druid regularly farming Manual Crowd Pummelers for AQ/Naxx progress.

Everyone KNEW how to optimize for raids, vast majority of people just didnt care enough to do it. Every single raiding guild had bad/lazy players in them, even Death & Taxes had keyboard turners on their first KT kill.

Okay sweetheart

[munkeyinorbit]

Dude i can see ur reasoning for starting this thread now, and i think ur pretty biased. (U cant see it yourself)
PvE in Retail at Mythic level isn't hard at all, imagine knowing the strategies and tactics for 15 years like Classic, You would not even wipe one time completing it.

And PvP has a lot higher skill-cap dude, i can't find one argument against that, and u can try to come up with one if you can.

If your playing against real players its ALWAYS, ALWAYS harder than playing against a NPC with all tactics known, THAT is a FACT.

And PvP player base is actually so small now because blizzard have made bad changes since WoTLK PvP wise, look at wrath how many players did PvP.

Blizzard have done templates, made every class easy to play (still now they are so dumped down).
Now in Shadowlands when blizzard finally released actual PvP vendors, they made the change to 550 conquest first week, that makes a lot of PvPers leave once again..
So the reason PvE is dominant now is because WoW is lead by Ion, and not Jeff Kaplan like in Wotlk.

If u look at WoW subscribers numbers u can see how low they are compared to WotLK thats because all PvPers have left because of the game direction since then. When wow had 12 million subscribers the majority of them was PvPers

Sorry to let you down buddy, thats the truth..

PvP is not harder than PvE and that is a fact. The known abilities of bosses doesn't stop people from wiping on them. The best PvE players in the world wipe on these mechanics 100s of times. Your average player still can't clear normal.

In PvP almost everyone has some kind of success. The reason being is that the average player is not that good and there is 50 percent of the player base below average. Is gladiator level PvP harder than normal? Of course it is. Is beginning PvP harder than normal? No.

People need to stop with the PvP is hard nonsense.

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LOL Kungen hasn't been relevant for over 10 years. He tried to make a comeback in WOD but failed spectacularly because raiding had gotten way too difficult, after that all he has done is talk about how much harder Classic is and now that anyone can experience the content and realize that he has been lying this whole time he doesn't have much to say on the subject.

People who claim that Classic is hard are either delusional, lying, ignorant or all of the above. Put them against a Jaina or a N'zoth mythic and they'd have a heart attack.

Pit them up against an LFR NZoth and get the same results.

[jackofwind]

Errr, all of that was basic information everyone in my casual guild knew.

I'll up it by saying i knew the full attack table that was only datamined in files after TBC launched, Elitist Jerks did not. Heroic strike removing the miss-penalty for off-hand. And yes, we had a druid regularly farming Manual Crowd Pummelers for AQ/Naxx progress. We killed Onyxia with 3 players, we had players soloing arena/angerforge/tribute/full instances.

Everyone KNEW how to optimize for raids, vast majority of people just didnt care enough to do it. Every single raiding guild had bad/lazy players in them, even Death & Taxes had keyboard turners on their first KT kill.

Still sounds like there were some things you didn't know about, darling.

[Mosha]

PvP is not harder than PvE and that is a fact. The known abilities of bosses doesn't stop people from wiping on them. The best PvE players in the world wipe on these mechanics 100s of times. Your average player still can't clear normal.

In PvP almost everyone has some kind of success. The reason being is that the average player is not that good and there is 50 percent of the player base below average. Is gladiator level PvP harder than normal? Of course it is. Is beginning PvP harder than normal? No.

People need to stop with the PvP is hard nonsense.

Pvp is objectively harder. It will always be in every game ever made.

In pve, even if you are struggling super hard, there is a scripted dance you can learn. Even getting better gear makes the encounter easier.

In pvp there is no “dance” to learn. Everything is ever changing and more reactive than just following a script.

The ‘success’ you are talking about in pvp is the equivalent to just clearing trash mobs.

The best players in the world and a random mythic raider during the course of a raids life will both achieve the exact same thing. They will both clear the raid eventually and get the gear.

That’s not how pvp works. The best pvper and a random 2200 player will not achieve the same thing in pvp. The top success in pvp is being at the top certain % of players in order to get rank one and get your title. The top success in pve is clearing the raid.

[munkeyinorbit]

Pvp is objectively harder. It will always be in every game ever made.

In pve, even if you are struggling super hard, there is a scripted dance you can learn. Even getting better gear makes the encounter easier.

In pvp there is no “dance” to learn. Everything is ever changing and more reactive than just following a script.

The ‘success’ you are talking about in pvp is the equivalent to just clearing trash mobs.

The best players in the world and a random mythic raider during the course of a raids life will both achieve the exact same thing. They will both clear the raid eventually and get the gear.

That’s not how pvp works. The best pvper and a random 2200 player will not achieve the same thing in pvp. The top success in pvp is being at the top certain % of players in order to get rank one and get your title. The top success in pve is clearing the raid.

I think you don't know what the word objectively means. Success in PvP is getting the gear. Everyone can do that. The fact that terrible players that you can farm makes PvP a joke. You can't do that in pve. You actually have to kill bosses. PvP is spamable, raiding isn't.