M+ and Raider.IO

[Malkiah]

and thus every tool that allows good people to segregate themselves causes billions of tears and cries of injustice from the bads who just can't be arsed to find a guild or a group of regular players on their level to get their shit done themselves.

this is kind of interesting as a statement, because it gets to a deeper side issue - that there are several aspects of wow that are shifting away from the fundamental core design that was part of how and why the game was built in the first place, from the ground up.

wow has always been the lincoln logs version of everquest - it's basically the same game in nearly every way, except that it's built specifically to be more casual friendly.
this was literally the stated design goal when wow was first announced, a huge part of its cultural presence at the time was the layman's version of a game that many people had an issue with for being too hard and requiring too much investment to be able to play.
huge aspects to wow's interactivity on a difficulty scale were directly influenced by the fact that the current everquest expansion at the time, gates of discord, was brutally and often soul-crushingly difficult, and so wow came along and said "hey... here's an MMO you can play that doesn't require dedicated grouping above level 10 and where higher end gameplay isn't absolutely dictated by a class based meta"

it's kind of fascinating to watch how that pretty much held true until a couple expansions ago, when that started to creep into wow in a pretty significant way.
i don't think it's completely unreasonable for people who have been playing a game predicated on a certain interaction model are having concerns about the changing dynamics of how being able to play said game works on a day to day basis.

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Everything io gathers is available on the armory.

ok... and?

[Chapowza]

First post!

I agree rio is a useful tool in finding like-minded people when pushing higher level keys.
I also think that the way it is currently being used by the mass majority is wrong.
I agree that misuse is because of a lack of understanding with how it works or how one should interpret the given data.

It is my opinion though that it is not a necessity.

I believe that, as with ANY game, anything that is a true necessity should be implemented into the game by the developers of said game.

IF rio is necessary, Blizzard should be the ones to incorporate a similar function into the game.

If it isn't directly in the game, it isn't necessary.

This will probably open up a lot of other opinions on that above statement, but while addons are awesome, and I use them, I believe they aren't 'necessary' either.

[willtron]

R.io is the new gearscore. Something like this will always exist. I get the need for it if youre pugging stuff at a level that should need a guild but if you request at reasonable content you're a cunt that wants to be carried. If people want to buy into it then go for it, gearscore was stupid and so was this and the game will only be worse for it.

Doesn't affect me as I always make my own groups anyway and I'm casual as fuck.

[Merlunie]

"you can't get invited to a key until you've already done that key"

does that not seem even the slightest bit wrong to you?


making playing a video game a job: the end goal of design intention and player desire since.... um... oh wait, right. never.

Make your own group. I’m not taking you to a 15 if you haven’t done one.

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There's always exceptions. If I'm looking for pugs for my 17 key & I have a choice between four experienced players who've done the dungeon on a 17 & four players who've done it no higher than a 12, it's POSSIBLE that the second group will be better, but it's highly unlikely. And at the end of the day, they're randoms & not guildies, so why would you risk it for them?



I'm tempted to put a high key in the group finder at the end of the week & only take people who are super inexperienced in current content. It'd be interesting to see how it goes.

Put a time limit on it.

[Malkiah]

Make your own group. I’m not taking you to a 15 if you haven’t done one.

which is fine, it's your group, and i get the reasoning there - but if you can't admit there's something logically problematic with requiring that someone have already done a thing before they can do a thing, that's just a bit silly.

[Xath]

imo rio means nothing you can be carried by a group of 4 guildies to say 700-800 not know how to deal wiht any of the affixes and then ruin other peoples grps iv'e played every iteration of m+ since it came out and its never been as bad as it is now.

R.io doesn't guarentee you are a good player but having low r.io score does tend to mean you won't be comfortable with tactics and maybe not even have a complete grasp on all dungeon pulls. Especially given how many casters there are in slands dungeons this is rather important.

[Merlunie]

which is fine, it's your group, and i get the reasoning there - but if you can't admit there's something logically problematic with requiring that someone have already done a thing before they can do a thing, that's just a bit silly.

Me and three other people have done the 15. Why would we group with someone who hasn’t? Sorry but find a push group. No one wants to drag you through content you haven’t done.

[Gasparde]

it's kind of fascinating to watch how that pretty much held true until a couple expansions ago, when that started to creep into wow in a pretty significant way.
i don't think it's completely unreasonable for people who have been playing a game predicated on a certain interaction model are having concerns about the changing dynamics of how being able to play said game works on a day to day basis.

Nonononono, you're missing a critical point there.

That layman's experience is still there. You can still experience absolutely EVERYTHING this game has to offer as a layman as there are dozens of different difficulty settings for absolutely everyone.

What clearly has changed though is the perception of the layman that they have a right to not only experience every content this game has to offer, but also defeat it at any difficulty level regardless of their own skill.

Classic had tons of content that the layman would never lay their eyes on. Fuck, most people probably never saw MC back then, let alone shit like AQ or Naxx. And that certainly wasn't that different in TBC with anything past T4. It's only in WotLK when people were able to see all the content with relative ease for the first time - but even then, you were only able to see your respective difficulty level.

This has been spread further and further over the last recent expansions as to give everyone their own difficulty level. This didn't just suddenly happen, it was a steady process of refinement over the last decade or so.

What has changed though was the community suddenly starting to demand absolutely everything. At no point was m+10 or m+15 designed around everyone just going in there without any form of coordination... and just +3 the damn thing. SOME people, the same people who also played Naxx during Classic times or Ulduar Hardmode during WotLk or whatever optional top end difficulty, can do that. And those specific few like to play with people like themselves. This is no different to what we had 15 years ago. What is different though is that casual fucking Steve who's never done a +5, still clicks his buttons and hasn't even dragged his interrupt onto his bars is now EXPECTING me to play with him.

It's not the good players that have changed. It's not the game that has changed. It's the bad players that have become incredibly audacious, demanding everything to revolve around them. But that is not a WoW thing, that's just a 21st century internet thing. Bad players / stupid people are simply the majority and they scream the loudest, so of course that's most of the discourse you'll hear.

You won't hear a lot of people being like I'm playing with r.io and I think it's great because it allows me to spot likeminded people of the same skill level to play with, 10/10. Instead what you'll hear is I'm playing for 2 hours per week, and yesterday not a single group picked my 188 warlock up for a +12, this game sucks, +12s are so easy yet no one takes me because they're all so elitist and I simply don't have time to host my own keys or find friends or anything like that because I only have 2 hours per week and this game should account for that and still allow me to get the absolute best gear available in no time with 0 effort.

The dynamics haven't changed, there's just more loudmouthed shitty players being given a voice / platform nowadays.

[God Save The King]

which is fine, it's your group, and i get the reasoning there - but if you can't admit there's something logically problematic with requiring that someone have already done a thing before they can do a thing, that's just a bit silly.

This is often the issue with people joining or pushing late into the season.

The people doing 15s have been doing them for a while now. They're not interested in carrying people through them. It's similar to normal/heroic raids. After a short time you start needing the final boss achievement/AotC to get invites. The time to get the necessary experience is when the majority of the community is doing it. End of December/Early January I had no issues pugging 15s when I had never done one. At this point 3-4 weeks later, I wouldn't accept someone who has never done one either. It tells me one of three things:

1) This person does not do a lot of M+, and likely doesn't have the experience nor much knowledge of the dungeon we're about to do

2) They're a newer toon and might not be fully comfortable on their character

3) They bought boosts in the hopes of getting into a 15 and carried (usually if they have all 10-14s with no lower keys timed)


As time goes on the number of new people pushing into 15s drops while the number of people who have been doing 15s for a while steadily climbs. So the number of groups willing to take someone who has only done a 12-14 will steadily decrease as a percentage of total groups.

Late december the majority of groups would be progression/experience groups. At this point the majority are experienced players. By the end of the season hardly any new 15 pushers will be around and getting a group will be very difficult. The same with applicants. I see loads of 215+ ilvl, 1300+ io applicants. There's just no reason to take a 210, 1200 io player who has only done 14s.

Best to get in to it while the iron is hot and people don't expect loads of experience.

[Malkiah]

Nonononono, you're missing a critical point there.

That layman's experience is still there. You can still experience absolutely EVERYTHING this game has to offer as a layman as there are dozens of different difficulty settings for absolutely everyone.

just for the record i'm not missing that point at all, i said it's been creeping in, not that it overtook everything.

maybe i just have a skewed perspective on this and the entire problem is that generally speaking i consider 1-6 keys to be low end casual-level content, and so seeing aggressive screening being done at those levels seems a bit problematic to me in terms of the interactivity model for the game.

maybe those keys are higher end content than i give them credit for, maybe i'm operating on a general delusion about the scaling level of the difficulty curve.
i just see what appears to me to be a higher level of exclusivity at that level than seems reasonable and think it's a bit problematic for the game just in terms of content access to a large portion of the player base.

What clearly has changed though is the perception of the layman that they have a right to not only experience every content this game has to offer, but also defeat it at any difficulty level regardless of their own skill.

has it though?
what evidence is there of this?
i have to be honest, that statement sounds far more to me like an argument that attempts to justify itself by creating a reality in which the statement is necessary, rather than a commentary on what's actually happening.

Classic had tons of content that the layman would never lay their eyes on. Fuck, most people probably never saw MC back then, let alone shit like AQ or Naxx. And that certainly wasn't that different in TBC with anything past T4.

if i may: those examples are all high end content relative to the content available in the game, and high end content is not what is now being discussed nor has high end content what has ever been discussed when regarding .io and whether it's useful or not (that i've ever seen at least).

It's only in WotLK when people were able to see all the content with relative ease for the first time - but even then, you were only able to see your respective difficulty level.

to be fair, the other thing that happened in WOTLK is that for the first time in the game's history a numerical majority of the players were max level, which had the biggest impact on how the game design changed from that point onward.

What has changed though was the community suddenly starting to demand absolutely everything. At no point was m+10 or m+15 designed around everyone just going in there without any form of coordination... and just +3 the damn thing.

and nobody (that i've seen) who has ever questioned whether .io is a good thing has been talking doing a +15, so while the second sentence is technically accurate, it's moot because the first sentence is completely irrelevant.

What is different though is that casual fucking Steve who's never done a +5, still clicks his buttons and hasn't even dragged his interrupt onto his bars is now EXPECTING me to play with him.

i don't see this argument being made anywhere though.
if this was a legit point of contention i'd completely agree with you, however all the M+ and .io 'complaint' threads i see pop up around here are almost always talking about sub 10 keys... but then every single 'argument' to shout that down is talking about 15+ keys, which is a completely different environment and to which none of this applies.

It's not the good players that have changed. It's not the game that has changed. It's the bad players that have become incredibly audacious, demanding everything to revolve around them. But that is not a WoW thing, that's just a 21st century internet thing. Bad players / stupid people are simply the majority and they scream the loudest, so of course that's most of the discourse you'll hear.

have they?
i don't mean to be confrontational about this, i'm not trying to shout you down as being wrong, i've just never seen what you're claiming.
i've absolutely seen people express an opinion that someone with middling ilevel (195-210) and low-moderate .io score (300-600) should have a reasonable expectation of being able to get into a +5 to +7 key, but quite frankly i think that's an acceptable expectation to have.

again though, that opinion is based on me thinking that that ilevel and score are the design range for that level of content, so maybe i'm just crazy and need to adjust my perception.

You won't hear a lot of people being like I'm playing with r.io and I think it's great because it allows me to spot likeminded people of the same skill level to play with, 10/10. Instead what you'll hear is I'm playing for 2 hours per week, and yesterday not a single group picked my 188 warlock up for a +12, this game sucks, +12s are so easy yet no one takes me because they're all so elitist and I simply don't have time to host my own keys or find friends or anything like that because I only have 2 hours per week and this game should account for that and still allow me to get the absolute best gear available in no time with 0 effort.

can you point to a thread where that was ever stated?
honestly, i'm open to being shown i'm wrong on this... but the quote above does not in any way meet my experience with threads and complaints about groups or .io.
this very thread we're posting in is talking about 13+, and that's a completely rational level of content to be picky about.

can you show me an actual legit post by someone doing what you just described? because my sense of things is that nearly every single post or thread griping about .io is saying "i have 198 ilevel and a 350 .io and spent 4 hours not being able to get into a +4 key" which i think is a totally reasonable complaint.

The dynamics haven't changed, there's just more loudmouthed shitty players being given a voice / platform nowadays.

respectfully disagree.
the paradigm isn't shitty loudmouthed players, it's tryhards needing to show off how girthy their cock is by creating a straw man argument about entitlement that doesn't exist in order to denigrate a segment of the playerbase they despise for absolutely no reason.

[EasyE]

I encourage some of you to make your own group just to see the amount of people that sign up, tell me your not gonna take the higher IO / Geared people. The competition for Keys is SUPER high cause no one wants to make their own group. I mean peak hours in US, there are prolly close to a million players but only 30-40 Mythic + groups LFG. Do the math.

In the end make your own group.

[Amariw]

agree. /10c

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agree. /10c

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totally agree. thats where rio sucks.

maybe it should be acc wide. maybe this would help. idk

as a poster above said: rio is fine when high level players are making a grp and looking for other high level players (when also using count of runs). it sucks for everyone else, or every other situation.

after thinking about all of this, i am still not sure if i think the gain is worth enough, to have all the downsides. if rio would not have such huge negative „meta impact“ on the game, i would call it a good tool.

I think you're conflating the real cause of this possibly unpleasant experiences. The real reason, imo, is that m+ dungeons can be punishing to fail at. Blizz made it that way, not rio. If you could random queue into a +15 by having, say, 200 or so ilvl, people might not care as much about failure cuzz they could just try again and, maybe, after enough attempts the community would grow experienced enough that success is more likely (could also be +15s are too hard for most people even with ilvl, but i somewhat doubt it. Like many things in wow, try it enough times and you'll learn). But that's not how it works atm. If you fail, your key is degraded or you have to find another group. This is what creates the stress to find people who can do it succesfuly, not the rio system in itself.

Basically, blizzard designed and succeeded, especially in this expansion, in creating challenging 5 man content that not everybody can complete, and is somewhat punishing to fail at. Rio arose as a screening tool, and it will stay popular as long as the time cost of failling a m+ will remain high.

[Gasparde]

has it though?
what evidence is there of this?
i have to be honest, that statement sounds far more to me like an argument that attempts to justify itself by creating a reality in which the statement is necessary, rather than a commentary on what's actually happening.

The 'evidence' is that back then you didn't have people storm to the forums every day, bitching about being denied for MC PuGs after being checked and deemed too bad on the Org bank roof.

if i may: those examples are all high end content relative to the content available in the game, and high end content is not what is now being discussed nor has high end content what has ever been discussed when regarding .io and whether it's useful or not (that i've ever seen at least).

You see, that's all relative. You and me might be having very different definitions of where the endgame in this game truly starts. I for one say, if it's not queueable it's endgame. And if it's not queueable you abide by the rules of those that open the groups. That has always been the case. People didn't just invite the first people to whisper them 'inv' back then in ZG, they didn't do that for Kara, and they also didn't do that for Challenge Modes in MoP. For all of those you were checked in some capacity - and m+ is no different in that regard.

and nobody (that i've seen) who has ever questioned whether .io is a good thing has been talking doing a +15, so while the second sentence is technically accurate, it's moot because the first sentence is completely irrelevant.

It's irrelevant what people are talking about. It only matters what people are doing. You or me thinking that people shouldn't be expecting to get invited to +5s, +10s or +15s doesn't matter. If you have a dude opening a group for a +5 and expecting you to have all +5s timed... that's not r.io's fault. If that same dude demands you to have all +10s timed for his +5s... that's not r.io's fault. If it wasn't r.io then it'd be ilvl. Or AOTC. Or Achievement Points. Or shoe size. Or anything. You do not have a right to play this person's key. He is entitled to invite whoever he wants. And if there's 1.2k r.io people with 210 signing up for his +5 he's sure as hell going to take them over your 200 gs 500 r.io char. No matter what you think you're entitled to, this guy's key, this guy's rules.

i don't see this argument being made anywhere though.
if this was a legit point of contention i'd completely agree with you, however all the M+ and .io 'complaint' threads i see pop up around here are almost always talking about sub 10 keys... but then every single 'argument' to shout that down is talking about 15+ keys, which is a completely different environment and to which none of this applies.

Once more, relative. Just because you think people shouldn't care about this stuff in +5s... doesn't mean they shouldn't care about that stuff in +5s. These people might be in +5s because they're just that bad at the game. And without overpowering the content they're simply not able to clear it... so they want to overpower it... because they can... and it's easier than to actually learn to play the game. It's no one's decision at which keystone level r.io should become publicly acceptable... because it's publicly acceptable even at +2s, evidently proven by groups filtering based on r.io and actually getting a full group.

have they?
i don't mean to be confrontational about this, i'm not trying to shout you down as being wrong, i've just never seen what you're claiming.
i've absolutely seen people express an opinion that someone with middling ilevel (195-210) and low-moderate .io score (300-600) should have a reasonable expectation of being able to get into a +5 to +7 key, but quite frankly i think that's an acceptable expectation to have.

That's where we disagree then. Just because you, theoretically, can succeed... doesn't mean I'm gonna chance my key on that when there's 50 other people with 500 more r.io and 20 more ilvls readily waiting. It'd be insane of me to expect you to go out of your way and only invite the 'worst' seeming players into your group just because of an arbitrarily deemed-easy-by-me keystone level. Again, my key, my rules, your key, your rules - and if I can get away with getting mythic raiders for my +3... then I'll sure as hell do so instead of taking the first best LFR raider just by virtue of them being 10s faster to queue up for, once more, my key.

can you point to a thread where that was ever stated?
honestly, i'm open to being shown i'm wrong on this... but the quote above does not in any way meet my experience with threads and complaints about groups or .io.
this very thread we're posting in is talking about 13+, and that's a completely rational level of content to be picky about.

can you show me an actual legit post by someone doing what you just described? because my sense of things is that nearly every single post or thread griping about .io is saying "i have 198 ilevel and a 350 .io and spent 4 hours not being able to get into a +4 key" which i think is a totally reasonable complaint.

Of course I do not have literal proof of that arbitrarily made up statement to support my claim. We're not talking about a literal thing that's observable and going on in this very second at this specific location. We're talking about the concept of people thinking that they're entitled to X. Whatever that X is doesn't matter. Whatever the argument of the entitled person is doesn't matter. I am not bound by any rules to car pool to work with you, I am not bound by any ToS or EULA to play with you. Thus, no matter the content, no matter the circumstance, as long as Blizzard is not literally forcing me to play with you, I am free to decide not to play with you. Your argument, as reasonable and as true and valid and good and solid as it might be... does not change the fact that I do not have to play a +2 key with anything below 210s if I don't want to. And as long as I keep getting people signing up for my +2s in 210 gear I will keep inviting them over you. It's the path of least resistance and it's only natural that EVERYONE is taking it. You wouldn't hire an inexperienced worker for a job if you could get 10 people with tons of experience applying for the same job... for the same money - which is what you'd be doing by inviting a 200 ilvl dude over a 210 dude for your +10s. You have no leg to stand on when you're telling me who I should be playing with, that is all it boils down to - me making hyperbolic claims about fictional 160 gs people with 0 r.io applying to +22 keys doesn't change that fact.... it's just inflating it to get the point across.

respectfully disagree.
the paradigm isn't shitty loudmouthed players, it's tryhards needing to show off how girthy their cock is by creating a straw man argument about entitlement that doesn't exist in order to denigrate a segment of the playerbase they despise for absolutely no reason.

Respectfully disagree.
Me only inviting 1k r.io people to my +6 is not about me being a nerdy asmongold watching elitist girthy cock tryhard - it's me being someone who values their time and wants to minimize the risk of investing 30 minutes into a key just to eventually deplete it and get nothing out of it. That doesn't make me elitist, that makes me a person without unlimited free time. If you think my arguments are strawmaning because I'm not literally quoting the people blaming r.io for ruining their chances of getting into a +7 on their 200 gs character just because I'm using abrasive terminology and hyperbolic arguments... then that's just gotta be what it is then.

We might just very much disagree on the very foundations of this issue then - being that I don't think you have any right to be in any group that another human being has started and was not just automatically put together by Blizzard, no matter the arbitrary difficulty setting of whatever content the group is going for. And that's totally fine... because (and I'm not trying to sound giga elitist here or anything) I know I'm going to win. I will always be able to filter out people I deem unworthy of my time - not because you're not a valuable human being, but because I just don't enjoy losing... and picking you might increase the odds of losing... for no other reason other than there being someone else with 0.01 ilvl more than you. You can just not win. Like, you might win and get r.io banned... but then me and all the toxic elitists will find something else to segregate ourselves from people who *think* they should be able to play with us - but again, much like back in Zul Gurub or Zul Aman... we might simply just don't want to play with you... and we will always find ways to not do so.

[Avrantia]

I actually did my own key tonight where I specifically decided not take anyone with a RIO score, based on this thread. It was Plaguefall +4. We spent 2 hours and had 55 deaths by the time the first player left. We never finished the dungeon.

[Malkiah]

Me only inviting 1k r.io people to my +6 is not about me being a nerdy asmongold watching elitist girthy cock tryhard

true.
however, you coming to the forums to decry people complaining about how you need 1k io to get an invite to a +6 kind of is.

also, hang on..

isn't one of the pivotal foundations of your entire argument that an individual being an exception to the rule doesn't make the rule invalid?
you've said that cry-baby loudmouths are screaming that they don't get to do all the content, and while you haven't specifically said it (that i've seen) it's a pretty short corollary to the commonly proclaimed argument that a decent player with acceptable gear but a low io score either doesn't exist or is so rare that it's irrelevant.

so, how is it that the above can be claimed, and yet "oh i'm not an asmongold-fapping elitist, i'm just a decent guy who doesn't have much time and needs to use io because it weeds out bad players 100% of the time and only lets in quality players like me" also be claimed?

[Subrias]

I want to start by saying that given this is a hot topic humor me and read what i want to say before you reply please. Thank you.

Now the main topic. Ever since R.IO became a thing, it is noticed that Pugs have high requirements and expectetions from the people that sign in their groups.
This results in many players mostly on the casual spectrum to feel frustrated and find R.IO unjust, unrealistic, a tool that feeds elitism and so on.

I started pushing keys in BfA mostly and that was after Season 2 where player power was already high and pushing into 15s - while it required effort - was a lot easier to achieve than the starting season of an expansion like we are now, where power is still somewhat limited and you can see that difficulty scaling up from +13 to a +14...

My big question to the forum is, are you really annoyed by R.IO or is this just a reaction to being declined in keys?

This season i had to work my ass off in m+ because most of my premade group plays on different hours than me. That meant for me that i had to work my way up the ladder. I main a Resto Shaman and when the season started i did some low keys with the guild to prepare for raiding and that gave me about 500 r.io. The guild mates werent really interested in pushing at the time, so this meant that i had to pug keys. As a Resto Shaman ( which i believe is a ''meta'' class for this season or flavor of the month ) i was signing up in over 30 keys to get invited eventually into one and thats on the 500-600 r.io scale.

Eventually after lots of pugging and lots of failing, i managed to climp on the ~750 r.io scale, that meant most of the dgs was at +8 and +9. At that point a friend of similar to mine r.io decides to join me ( Guardian Druid ) so we finally start pushing 10s and above. So we start making our own groups, doing our research on proper pulling paths, where he might need most of my healing and etc, basically making sure that the tank/healer part of a pug is completely covered with minimal room for error - cause there is always room for error in m+ no matter how good you are. This meant that we had to pug 3 dps.

My critirea for a dps in the pug world was going to be their experience first and then their rio. I would recruit people within my rio range but with experience (aka timed runs ) on par with mine. You see one can have high rio if you do targeted pushes on a dungeon that is ur lowest to bring it on par with the rest of your high keys. This results in high rio only 6-8 timed runs. That for me is not good enough, the guy that had such an rio/experience ratio, might very well be awesome but i dont know that in the pug world, i have to make a decision based on the facts that i have in front of me. On the +5-9 part of the R.io ladder i have over 30 timed runs, why would i want someone to dps for me with 1/3 of the experience?

So applying this critirea, and having me and my friend tank being premade with in 2 weeks we boosted our R.io from ~750 to a little over 1000, having timed all dungeons in +13 and yesterday we managed to complete our first +14. Pug players within our R.io range and with experience on par with ours almost never fucked up and we rarely depleted keys and if we did was for 1-2min over timer.

So dear anti-R.io player, do you think it is unfair that you are not selected for a key? Have you done the work your self? Have you put in hours into the pug world? Have climbed the R.io ladder step by step? Or do you expect to join 900rio groups with 500rio or 1.1k groups with 900 rio?

before RIO people used item level and before item level they used gear score... its nothing new.. its jus the same thing with a different name. this version is slightly more accurate though so at least it has that. but people will never understand how the numbers work and therefore require ridiculous stats. i remember people requiring ilvl average 10 levels higher than the content dropped. now people want you to have an 800 score to do +8's when 800 score is +10 lol.

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I actually did my own key tonight where I specifically decided not take anyone with a RIO score, based on this thread. It was Plaguefall +4. We spent 2 hours and had 55 deaths by the time the first player left. We never finished the dungeon.

thats just absurd... its not about people having RIO its knowing how to understand the numbers... at a +6 everyone should have around 8(10x6) so 500 rio. its easy to figure out. there are 8 instances. each instances (when completed on time) gives you 10 points per +. so (10 x X). the extra 9.9 points between ranks is how quickly you complete it. if you finish it with 10% of the time left, you are then given 1 extra point. so lets say you want people for a +8. thats 8(10x8) = 640 so you want people around 640 to clear in time. if you are "pushing" you might want people around say 750.

[ZazuuPriest]

I have like 30 5-9 timed runs and 20 2-4 timed. Sitting at 525 rio and 203ilvl. Getting declined for anything over 6 for hours even by people with less RIO score and runs. I have been invited to a couple of 7 and 8 over the last three weeks probably because it was late at night and there wasn't many ppl to choose from XD

While I think that having a tool to help you select people is good, I don't think that rio is that great at gauging player performance. Blizzard should come up with something that rates players based on real facts like interrupts, dispels, deaths, mob aggro, damage taken etc.

rIO already does that by giving you a score for completed dungeons

[Malkiah]

rIO already does that by giving you a score for completed dungeons

dear god, you don't actually believe that, do you? that has to be hyperbole or something.

what am i saying, of course you do... this is the kind of thing that people who gripe about .io are talking about.

[Gasparde]

true.
however, you coming to the forums to decry people complaining about how you need 1k io to get an invite to a +6 kind of is.

also, hang on..

isn't one of the pivotal foundations of your entire argument that an individual being an exception to the rule doesn't make the rule invalid?
you've said that cry-baby loudmouths are screaming that they don't get to do all the content, and while you haven't specifically said it (that i've seen) it's a pretty short corollary to the commonly proclaimed argument that a decent player with acceptable gear but a low io score either doesn't exist or is so rare that it's irrelevant.

so, how is it that the above can be claimed, and yet "oh i'm not an asmongold-fapping elitist, i'm just a decent guy who doesn't have much time and needs to use io because it weeds out bad players 100% of the time and only lets in quality players like me" also be claimed?

Because, at no point, have I been talking about quality. I haven't been talking about me being a quality player and I haven't been talking about the people I invite exclusively being quality players. I have specifically stated that I will always invite like-minded people (meaning people who have the same attitude towards m+ as me, although that is mostly a guild thing as you can rarely determine that from the group finder) and that I will almost invite the people that, objectively and statistically speaking, will give me the best odds of timing a key.

I do not know if you're a quality player. I don't know if I'm a quality player. I don't know if that random 207 warlock is a quality player and I don't know if that random 211 hunter is a quality player. But statistically speaking, that hunter will naturally deal more damage before he inevitably dies to the first avoidable mechanic than the warlock - and that is all I care about. In reality that hunter might be shit, and that warlock might be Thdlock on his 17th alt lock.... but in the real reality... it's probably 2 shitters being equally shit, but one of them is gonna deal 500 more dps while being equally shit - and knowing those odds I'll take the 500 extra dps. Always.

You make a valid point. There are good players with shit r.ios. Tons of them. A lot of mythic raiders often enough end up with like 10/10m and a world#100-200 ranking but with a ridiculously low r.io... because there's nothing to be gained for them in m+ - or at least not high m+. And the same happens in reverse. Actually, I have a friend DK tank who's just about to get the KSM mount and the huge 1.3k r.io to go along with it - you wanna know another thing about him? He's a clicker, he uses Rune Tap like 10 times per dungeon and he uses Marrowend when he's at like 9 stacks of Boneshield. You wanna know what he also also is? An even more condescending and arrogant trash talker than I am.

Everything can happen in a PuG. And that is the problem. Since everything can happen the only thing I care about is going in with the objectively best odds I can. Exceptions existing doesn't invalidate the circumstance that the average X will not perform as well as the average X+5 and it thusly makes sense to always wait for the X+5 dude. This does certainly not make one an Asmongold kekw tRuE LULW spammer... this merely makes you someone who doesn't wanna waste their time. Which is why I either host my keys and only pick the objectively most promising looking candidates... or I queue up for keys and don't bitch about it when I get declined because I'm aware that I was probably declined because there were 10 more attractive options queueing up at the same time. I am completely emotionally distanced from the group forming process and I'd advise everyone to do that too... because it saves you a lot of frustration and allows you to look at this situation as what it is... a game of odds, and most certainly not a toxic game of elitist favsies and noob bashing (not saying that there aren't people like that, just saying that I think that this is not a relevant portion of the playerbase to even consider it).

After all of this, I still see myself as a decent guy who's just not willing to fuck with absolutely anyone he comes across. If you regularly see 10/10s matching up with you on tinder.... there's really no reason to ever go for a 5/10 just for the odd chance of the 5/10 really trying and surprising you! Although that too is a fictional argument because I was banned from tinder when I uploaded my photo :-\

[Malkiah]

After all of this, I still see myself as a decent guy who's just not willing to fuck with absolutely anyone he comes across.

ok see *that* is a totally valid argument that i agree with.