Opposite schools of magic cancel each other?

[gaymer77]

OK does anyone else think that when a player who can use spells from opposing schools of magic that they should cancel each other out if there is a dot or debuff placed from one? Example: fire mage's dots being canceled when they cast frostbolt or frost nova (stretching on the nova); slow from frostbolt canceled out by a fire mage's fire spells; flameshock removed when frostshock is cast; frostshock's slow removed when flameshock is cast...etc etc. I'm not saying that ANY opposing school of magic cast should remove it since that would mean you couldn't have any person in group that has opposing schools of magic (ie no frost mages if you have a shaman or fire mage in the group) but that the caster's own dot/debuff would be removed.

[arkanon]

OK does anyone else think that when a player who can use spells from opposing schools of magic that they should cancel each other out if there is a dot or debuff placed from one? Example: fire mage's dots being canceled when they cast frostbolt or frost nova (stretching on the nova); slow from frostbolt canceled out by a fire mage's fire spells; flameshock removed when frostshock is cast; frostshock's slow removed when flameshock is cast...etc etc. I'm not saying that ANY opposing school of magic cast should remove it since that would mean you couldn't have any person in group that has opposing schools of magic (ie no frost mages if you have a shaman or fire mage in the group) but that the caster's own dot/debuff would be removed.

I think it's an absolutely terrible idea, but hey, opinions and all that.

[Grimbold21]

That's more or less the same logic I had back in vanilla when innocently little me asked my brother: why is it that exorcism and holy wrath don't work on undead players? They're undead!

[HCLM]

Have you even read what you wrote? How u could even come to conclusion it is a good idea

[Azerate]

It makes sense from a logical perpsective, but it would be absolute shit thing from the gameplay perspective, so no.

[Razion]

I feel like it would be frustrating to lose your dot damage or utility when you want to use the other when others don't have to make that trade off. It would just be an arbitrary weakness of the classes or specs. But if it was universal everyone would just hate it. Not fun. People want to use their kits and not be playing against their own abilities. Plus, it raises the ceiling for new players and makes it harder for a new player to grasp what is happening.

To fix, when swapping to new spell type, 'burst' or break the remaining effect to do whatever remaining damage or make the slow or root better when magic type swapped so that you are actually rewarded for shuffling magics instead of punished for trying to use your full kit. This way it feels like a cool combo and can even have flavor like the magic mixing.

[gaymer77]

That's more or less the same logic I had back in vanilla when innocently little me asked my brother: why is it that exorcism and holy wrath don't work on undead players? They're undead!

If your brother questioned that, then he wasn't aware that in vanilla a paladin COULD use both on an undead player AND turn evil a player (aka fear them). The same could be done with death knights who popped lichborne because the game saw them as an undead not a humanoid. Not sure on the death knights being able to be feared with turn evil still but it def could happen back in Wrath. You could even shackle undead a death knight when they used it lol.

Have you even read what you wrote? How u could even come to conclusion it is a good idea

I think it's an absolutely terrible idea, but hey, opinions and all that.

It would not be the first time in WoW's history that a spell cast by a player wiped away that player's own dots. Shadow priests had a spell that literally cleared ALL of their dots on the target when the priest cast it. I can't for the life of me remember what the name of it was because its been so long ago and the spell itself was a shitty spell that you only used on adds that would die fast. And I don't know why I'm remembering this happening before with other classes being able to "erase" their own dots with an opposite school cast on the target.

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To fix, when swapping to new spell type, 'burst' or break the remaining effect to do whatever remaining damage or make the slow or root better when magic type swapped so that you are actually rewarded for shuffling magics instead of punished for trying to use your full kit. This way it feels like a cool combo and can even have flavor like the magic mixing.

Much like balance druids swapping between the two schools of magic I take it?

[Surfd]

That's more or less the same logic I had back in vanilla when innocently little me asked my brother: why is it that exorcism and holy wrath don't work on undead players? They're undead!

Might have depended on when you played, but for a brief bit back in the very beginning of Vanilla, Forsaken players were actually literally typed as "Undead" creatures instead of "Humanoid", so spells that specifically only worked on undead actually would affect them. They changed them to be typed as "humanoid" at some point, but I forget exactly when.

[LordVargK]

Light and void react kinda explosive. It would be fun to use this interaction offensively. Doing combos of different elements could make for a fun and diverse class/spec. Canceling each other out? I mean, doesn't always make sense. In the case of fire and ice, sure. Arcane and chaos? Not that much.

[Irian]

Light and void react kinda explosive. It would be fun to use this interaction offensively. Doing combos of different elements could make for a fun and diverse class/spec. Canceling each other out? I mean, doesn't always make sense. In the case of fire and ice, sure. Arcane and chaos? Not that much.

Came in here to say this, I think while the idea of punishing players for using separate schools is bad, having a class that utilized opposing schools of magic to create volatile reactions would be really cool.

I guess the opposing spell school thing could work too though if you made it so that say, frost and fire both had a DoT that was very strong but didn't overlap or something.

[Pury]

Mage is so stupid, you are fire, but still use frost nova and arcane blink, or in combustion you can hide yourself in ice block. So stupid.
But not only that, mages use arcane to do magic, they get their power from order, just like warlocks get it from chaos.
Why frost and fire even exists? This is beyond stupid, we have shamans on the position of element weilders already, we don't need some second-hand copy who uses arcane to create artificial fire and frost (yes this is what mages are).
So so lame. Shaman should be all about elements and mage should focus on arcane. Arcane dps spec as it is now, heal spec, which uses titan reverse time magic to heal and tank spec blood elf wc3 melee unit style, who was immune to magic dmg (adapt to MMO obviously).

[D3athsting]

Elemental combat makes sense in a rpg, but wow ins't that much of a rpg anymore, we saw that when they removed magic resistance from items and allowed every school of magic to be equally efficient on any enemy (fire dmg on ragnaros, frost on ketl'thuzad), as of today wow's combat is about theorycrafting and min/maxing everything, elemental and environment combat wouldn't work in wow at all like they do in crpg or single player action rpg, not that i dislike this system, on the opposite i find it much better than button mashing but that won't just work in wow...

[Rootsbum]

RIP Disc-priests

[shaqar]

Might have depended on when you played, but for a brief bit back in the very beginning of Vanilla, Forsaken players were actually literally typed as "Undead" creatures instead of "Humanoid", so spells that specifically only worked on undead actually would affect them. They changed them to be typed as "humanoid" at some point, but I forget exactly when.

I think they could be infinite shackled by priests lol

[Cosmic Janitor]

Blizzard abandoned elemental based gameplay back in the day, mostly because it was entirely detrimental anyway and hindered the flow of the game. Unlike other games that fully use it there was never any bonus to element 1 vs element 2 in WoW. Fire didn't mean you deal more dmg to plant based creatures, frost never ment you dealt more damage to fire mobs, etc. There were just cases where you entirely canceled one element; usually fire vs fire or frost vs frost. Not to mention that WoW's elemental system has been rather garbage since its inception. You have fire and ice, shadow and light and then everything else is just mashed into nature dmg (wind, lightning, poison, sometimes earth) and arcane is off to the side. Going even further here and actively deny other elements on the same target is obviously not in that spirit either, as usually the goal was to get people to use their utlity instead of making it even more punishing.

If you want a lore reason, then you can argue that magical fire works dirrently than normal fire; same for other elements. After all a metor isn't instagibbing melees as well, despite standing in the same area. In the same vein, it's kinda unrealistic to expect that an ignite dot fully engulfs a person, especially their feet, wheres frost nova just roots you at that exact location.

Making changes to that now would require a major overhaul of the whole system to begin with and frankly doesn't really sit well with the flow that Blizzard seems to aim for. While it could be utilized similar to the hotstreak mechanic, it would require a finely crafted system, but would offer very little in the current context of the game.

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Might have depended on when you played, but for a brief bit back in the very beginning of Vanilla, Forsaken players were actually literally typed as "Undead" creatures instead of "Humanoid", so spells that specifically only worked on undead actually would affect them. They changed them to be typed as "humanoid" at some point, but I forget exactly when.

Because they were immune to mechanics like fear making them god tier in Blizzards simplistic encounter design back in the day while also making them pointless vicitims of priests and paladins in PvP. Much like the elemental stuff it simply comes down to gameplay and the flow of said gameplay.

[HCLM]

It would not be the first time in WoW's history that a spell cast by a player wiped away that player's own dots. Shadow priests had a spell that literally cleared ALL of their dots on the target when the priest cast it. I can't for the life of me remember what the name of it was because its been so long ago and the spell itself was a shitty spell that you only used on adds that would die fast. And I don't know why I'm remembering this happening before with other classes being able to "erase" their own dots with an opposite school cast on the target.
?

That was never the case. U only had dot limit on the target, and some dots were overwritten if 2 the same classes used it. Regardless, what u want to be in the game is the worst possible design I have ever heard of. Imagine not being able to take 2 classes on the raid because they would literally decrease each other dps.

[Wilian]

Lol at people that say Paladin exorcism or Turn Evil worked on players, it never did in retail. It existed briefly in alpha and beta but anyone claiming it existed in actual release version is talking out of big gaping asshole.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

This is an utterly terrible idea.

[TrollHunter3000]

OK does anyone else think that when a player who can use spells from opposing schools of magic that they should cancel each other out if there is a dot or debuff placed from one? Example: fire mage's dots being canceled when they cast frostbolt or frost nova (stretching on the nova); slow from frostbolt canceled out by a fire mage's fire spells; flameshock removed when frostshock is cast; frostshock's slow removed when flameshock is cast...etc etc. I'm not saying that ANY opposing school of magic cast should remove it since that would mean you couldn't have any person in group that has opposing schools of magic (ie no frost mages if you have a shaman or fire mage in the group) but that the caster's own dot/debuff would be removed.

Sounds dumb and overly complicated. It doesn't even make sense like you think it does. Just because you're cold doesn't mean you can't get burnt or vice versa.

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It makes sense from a logical perpsective, but it would be absolute shit thing from the gameplay perspective, so no.

It doesn't even make logical sense.

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It would not be the first time in WoW's history that a spell cast by a player wiped away that player's own dots.

Wrong, this already happens.

[gaymer77]

That was never the case. U only had dot limit on the target, and some dots were overwritten if 2 the same classes used it. Regardless, what u want to be in the game is the worst possible design I have ever heard of. Imagine not being able to take 2 classes on the raid because they would literally decrease each other dps.

Mind Spike seems to remember otherwise......

Added to the game with patch 4.0.0 (Cata pre-patch) and was a spammable shadowfrost damage spell billed as an alternative to Mind Flay that removed ALL of the priest's dots on the target. It was meant to give the priest something to cast on mobs that had lower HP or that needed to die fast as our playstyle required the most ramp up of any other class in the game. A shadow priest had to apply 1 instant cast dot (shadow word pain), 1 casted dot (vampiric touch), and if off cooldown devouring plague just to be able to then cast a channeled spell mind flay to kill things (repeat the first 2 spells and change it to mind sear if you're talking about a group of mobs not just a single one). A shadow priest excelled at single target dps but failed miserably at fights where there were adds. THIS was Blizzard's compromise to the problem of shadow priest ramp up (and the fact that a shadow priest literally had NOTHING they could cast if they got interrupted/counter spelled while casting vampiric touch or the channeled "bread and butter only filler spell" mind flay). If you click the link below for the spell Mind Spike on wowhead you can read the comment made by lxifer on 7/10/10 (patch 3.3.5 which was Wrath of the Lich King for this spell that was released with Cata 4.0.0) where it says "It is true that Shadow Priests rely mostly on damage-over-time spells to maximize their dps during boss fights. But it is also true that DoTs are quite weak when it comes to burn down quickly adds or trashes, or generally against mobs with low hp". You can read all the other comments talking about this spell removing the priest's dots and then in MOP was changed to not do that. That whole "dot limit" and "dots were overwritten if 2 the same class used it" only refers to vanilla WoW (or you may know it as Classic) because starting in BC that was changed.

Mind Spike

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Lol at people that say Paladin exorcism or Turn Evil worked on players, it never did in retail. It existed briefly in alpha and beta but anyone claiming it existed in actual release version is talking out of big gaping asshole.

It did work on players during vanilla for the undead faction. It worked on death knights who popped lichborne. It worked on warlocks under metamorphosis. In fact, holy wrath stunning a death knight under lichborne and a warlock under metamorphosis still could happen until 4.0 while the death knight fear still could. There have been plenty of times including in the current game that a player can use spells that under normal circumstances are meant to be used on NPCs but also some times work on other players (ie hibernate from any druid or scare beast from any hunter used on druids in cat/bear/travel form or shaman in ghost wolf).