Why not make raid loot work like PvP loot?

[Viikkis]

Or even just introduce valor vendors back as they were. I liked to have a slow but steady goal towards a specific piece. It made shitty RNG feel better when you knew you at least got some valor points.

[erifwodahs]

If there's one complaint I see all over the place, it's that raids don't drop enough loot, and I experience that too; often times I only get 1 item from a full 10/10 CN clear, maybe two if I'm lucky, and most of the time it's things I don't need that just end up getting vendored/traded to other people. The last time I did a Heroic clear, I ended up getting some leggings that I already have, and the token for an offhand...when I've already got a 213 2hander. So effectively nothing.

But then I look at PvP and as far as I can tell, you just do the PvP activities, get points, and then buy the exact gear you want from the vendor. No loot drama, no RNG, no bullshit.

Why can't PvE work like that? Just have bosses drop badges/points that we use to buy gear from vendors. No more getting pissed off at not having the right item drop, no more having 5 people whisper you "need that? need that? need that?" every time you get loot, no more getting things with the wrong stats, etc. You can funnel your points towards the items you want, instead of being at the mercy of loot RNG.

Yep. They could give us Valor points and "rating" for the content we do.

[kranur]

You are kind of missing his point here though:

Lets take Molten Core as an example.
There are 10 bosses in MC.
Each boss drops 4 pieces of loot.
Every Character has 15 loot slots (lets call it 12 for sake of argument that not every slot will have a piece of gear all classes want).

10 bosses x 4 pieces of loot is 40 pieces of loot in a run.
12 Equipment slots x 40 characters you would need 12 complete runs of MC to gear every character with every slot in MC gear, and that's assuming a PERFECT drop rate for "needed" gear. No wasted drops. No "this is the 5th week in a row boss X dropped item Y that nobody in the raid needs because everyone who could use it already has it".

Thats 4 months of full clearing MC to even remotely come close to getting everything everyone in your raid needs. Even if you chop that back to just 10 item slots (the 8 main gear slots + weapon and 1 extra for Cape/Ring/Trinket) that still leaves 10 weeks of perfect drops. And since most bosses in MC have like 20 items in their loot tables, your chances of getting perfect drops every week to cater to the needs of the raid is effectively 0.

Pretty sure that the current drop rate of gear under the personal loot system is probably pretty competitive to expecting to take approximately 4+ Months to get "everything" you need out of a raid.

The thing with vanilla is that you had pieces that were competitive with MC gear in dungeons, some MC pieces were good until AQ even and so on .. hell some aq40 pieces are better than naxx loot.
Basically unlile retail, the gear was rarer than wotlk and onward but it had more value as in not all gear from next tier was that much better than current tier.
This is where retail is failing, basically any new patch makes everything you have obsolete, so the whole rare and personal does not work that well.

[Orwell7]

The problem has a lot of details hidden regarding SL pve gearing.

See, it's OK that bosses drop less loot. It is comparable to ICC25.
However, currently a the power difference between a 200-213 is huge, but it' still MUCH less than the difference between 213 and 226!
In previous expansions, including vanilla, BC, wotlk and even wod, the power difference was much less.
Also we had a LOT of other sources of gear other than 10 bosses from a raid. Icc10 hc dropped 3 items for 10 people with the same ilvl as icc25 normal. 264 gear was available for badges (TIER SETS), wintergrasp, icc10hc and icc25 normal.
Now 213 (the same as 264 back then) from where? 10 heroic boss and sftu.. AND that 264 gear was a lot closer to 277 than 213 is to 226.

So people could dip into the endgame without requiring gear FROM that endgame.
The game is harder than previous expansions. I've had ZERO problems getting the max weekly chest with my alts, now it's struggling even with my main who has 217 ilvl. People just quit mid dungeon everytime something goes remotely wrong. This is partly because the prideful buff, you have to time it perfectly with BL, and if you fail, you just bricked your key.

So basically the problem is two fold: we get less gear AND the content is harder. Harder without proper compensation - risk vs reward ratio is more flawed than ever.

[Doffen]

My question is more like: why did they switch away from PvP specific gear? PvE gearing should not be done via PvP, imo.

But, it is? Every piece got versatility on it. All pvp pieces I get is 5-15% worse than the raid-m+ I get with better itemization on it at same item level. Only exception are weapons(which do require rankings for the proper ones) and for some specs, trinkets.

I do my gearing through PvE. Getting a piece from pvp at a better item level is taking quite the time for most people who PvE because they cant get enough conquest to buy the items they dont really want because the stats are generally not good enough.

And the whole charade of "why do PvP get vendors and PvE do not" is because pve already got a deterministic system. You can look at the loot table and see which boss or dungeon that drop a helm for example. Its the same way as it would be if you could do lets say a WSG and it had a loot table of 5 pieces which included a helm you wanted so you could then actively spam WSG to get the item.

Besides that, its the rpg element. PvP content are static. We are still doing AV, AB, Wintergrasp etc even though that do not belong to current story. PvE is story mode, even if its lfr or mythic, which includes getting gear from that boss you kill, story wise. PvP do not have that element. Mind you, this paragraph is more my opinion about how gearing should work, but something tells me that this is the philosophy Blizzard design the entire game with.

Yep. They could give us Valor points and "rating" for the content we do.

If they added rating to it I would think it would be fine. Have to do mythic raiding or 20++ to get highest gear from the vendor, if you do WQ or LFR your rating will only allow you to buy gear from same item level. I raid heroic, I dont deserve mythic raiding gear. I dont want it either, because I like how progression works now in the raids. No more easy over gearing after 3 weeks either, which is a good thing.

[Kaver]

But, it is? Every piece got versatility on it. All pvp pieces I get is 5-15% worse than the raid-m+ I get with better itemization on it at same item level. Only exception are weapons(which do require rankings for the proper ones) and for some specs, trinkets.

I do my gearing through PvE. Getting a piece from pvp at a better item level is taking quite the time for most people who PvE because they cant get enough conquest to buy the items they dont really want because the stats are generally not good enough.

And the whole charade of "why do PvP get vendors and PvE do not" is because pve already got a deterministic system. You can look at the loot table and see which boss or dungeon that drop a helm for example. Its the same way as it would be if you could do lets say a WSG and it had a loot table of 5 pieces which included a helm you wanted so you could then actively spam WSG to get the item.

Besides that, its the rpg element. PvP content are static. We are still doing AV, AB, Wintergrasp etc even though that do not belong to current story. PvE is story mode, even if its lfr or mythic, which includes getting gear from that boss you kill, story wise. PvP do not have that element. Mind you, this paragraph is more my opinion about how gearing should work, but something tells me that this is the philosophy Blizzard design the entire game with.

Depends on the class/spec. As an Outlaw Rogue what want:

Versatility = Haste > Crit >>>>>> Mastery

So PvP gear is pretty darn great :b

[loras]

Blizzard:
Instructions unclear, but we will nerf PvP gearing to closer match the misery of raiding.

This, basically.
And then gamble-addicted raiders with Stockholm's syndrome come along and defend the practice.
Infracted

[czarek]

Raid no. Dungeon yes plz. But as additional option. Normal loot should stay where it is. Killing and looting that was wow is all about more or less. U kill u got reward. Precious!

[Doffen]

Depends on the class/spec. As an Outlaw Rogue what want:

Versatility = Haste > Crit >>>>>> Mastery

So PvP gear is pretty darn great :b

Yep, some do like versatility, no doubt. Its not a horrible stat. I do pvp myself, a little. To get the transmogs I get my gear from PvE!

[intenz]

After 26 weeks of clearing MC on classic i still did not get all my gear from MC. Also bosses usually only drop 2 sometimes 3 pieces.

Redding the chat some people are playing the wrong game
Ps: we also saw 0 bindings.

MC drops can last most of the way through vanilla and it gets continuously progression raided by guilds, much like karazhan. The game isn't like that anymore. In 9.1 all our current loot will become obsolete and no one will raid CN for progression. Thus loot has to drop more often to account for this shorter life cycle.

There was nothing wrong with the previous raid loot system, it's just really low IQ decision making by Ion and co to think their formulaic and soulless loot becomes meaningful if it drops less frequently, which is a ridiculous thing to believe.

[Cracked]

MC drops can last most of the way through vanilla and it gets continuously progression raided by guilds, much like karazhan. The game isn't like that anymore. In 9.1 all our current loot will become obsolete and no one will raid CN for progression. Thus loot has to drop more often to account for this shorter life cycle.

There was nothing wrong with the previous raid loot system, it's just really low IQ decision making by Ion and co to think their formulaic and soulless loot becomes meaningful if it drops less frequently, which is a ridiculous thing to believe.

I wouldn't say there was nothing wrong with it, it was genuinely unrewarding in the sense that there was absolutely no joy when you got the piece you wanted, just sadness that you didn't. Changing this is hard though, and I don't think they are succeeding with this. Making things rarer in general really does make it feel better once you acquire it, though. Ask any collector in this game, the rare things feel the best. The problem with gear is that it becomes obsolete way too fucking fast. If the expectation was that mythic gear from current tier will only (and only partially at that!) be replaced by heroic / mythic gear of the next tier, it would be much easier to sell. But as we know, we will likely replace most of our shit even with normal more garbage / pvp handouts.

[Garymorilix]

But PvP loot doesn't work that way. You do the activity, get the points, and buy the exact gear you want. No RNG, no """"element of surprise"""".

You call it "element of surprise", I call it "dumb RNG bullshit that exists for no reason other than to keep us subscribed longer".

What you fail to get because you are probably too low on the skill spectrum is that pvp and pve operate differently.

In PvP you get gear according to your skill: You need to hit that 1600 rating thru grinding and actually being good at the game (to a degree, 1600 is not that hard).
In raids or M+ you can just do a 5-10 min fight for a loot and you can be easily carried thru it. Your personal input is not as important as it is in 2v2 or 3v3 (or even rated bg's).

While yes, it is generally easier to gather gear from PvP IF you are good at it, the majority of players are actually not good at it or don't even play it at all.

[Engal]

What you fail to get because you are probably too low on the skill spectrum is that pvp and pve operate differently.

In PvP you get gear according to your skill: You need to hit that 1600 rating thru grinding and actually being good at the game (to a degree, 1600 is not that hard).
In raids or M+ you can just do a 5-10 min fight for a loot and you can be easily carried thru it. Your personal input is not as important as it is in 2v2 or 3v3 (or even rated bg's).

While yes, it is generally easier to gather gear from PvP IF you are good at it, the majority of players are actually not good at it or don't even play it at all.

I'd normally agree with you, but with the states of PVE drop right now, player are mainly gearing themselves with PVP, so PVP is slowly becoming the main loot drop activity in the game ( which shouldn't be if you don't like pvp )

Blizzard should really bring back an emblem of valor system for PVE, that you can drop in the end chest dungeon and on raid boss to buy stuff from a npc, I don't care if it cost 1,2,10000 emblems, but it gives a goal and a reason to farm content, and will prevent ppl from leaving dungeon that are not timed because they'll need the emblems in the final chest.

[Clozer]

You all started playing in Legion or what? Loot only became such a shitfest in recent years. It's finally back to its roots.

[Garymorilix]

I'd normally agree with you, but with the states of PVE drop right now, player are mainly gearing themselves with PVP, so PVP is slowly becoming the main loot drop activity in the game ( which shouldn't be if you don't like pvp )

Blizzard should really bring back an emblem of valor system for PVE, that you can drop in the end chest dungeon and on raid boss to buy stuff from a npc, I don't care if it cost 1,2,10000 emblems, but it gives a goal and a reason to farm content, and will prevent ppl from leaving dungeon that are not timed because they'll need the emblems in the final chest.

What "players" are you talking about exactly?

I don't see more players playing mid-high cr pvp than before. If you're talking about the 1% top100 raiders they always have been playing high-end pvp as well.

[Glorious Leader]

Because filling a weekly bar with resources (conquest), then buying the gear you want is boring as fuck.
Sure, its efficient as fuck, but its also about as interesting as grocery shopping.

Hunting for loot drops is imo a core part of pve. Without it i feel like pve will lose part of its identity. Theres a real risk that raids would go the same way as challengemode in mop/wod, done once then ignored by the vast majority of participants.

Sick. Bring it the fuck on.

[Contesto]

10% chance to get loot is on average what it was before everything became loot pinata. in vanilla you got 4 items for 40 people. thats 10% chance. in bc in the 25 man raids you got 2 or 3 for 25 people. roughly the same percentage same in wrath unless you did hard modes. honeslty i havent had a hard time gearing at all. sure i got my roughly free 200 gear at the start, but im 215 now and i get like 1 piece of loot a week from the vault and 1 or 2 upgrades from the raid itself. I think thats fine honestly. i have yet to not get an upgrade every week out of my vault. where as in BC, i literally had my bow from karazan until i got the bow off illidan because no weapon ever dropped. its all rng i suppose, but i honestly am ok with how the raid items work... Dungeons on the other hand seem slightly stingy with loot.

I ran aorund with my Royal Crest of Lordaeron which dropped for me in my first heroic stratholme run, until we defeated gunship in icc for the second or third time and finally got Neverending Winter. And I tanked through naxx, ulduar and toc...

[Monolithi]

But PvP loot doesn't work that way. You do the activity, get the points, and buy the exact gear you want. No RNG, no """"element of surprise"""".

You call it "element of surprise", I call it "dumb RNG bullshit that exists for no reason other than to keep us subscribed longer".

And that reason is most important - they dont want you to gear up fast. Many pvers play for gear and Blizzard knows it, thats why they need to prolong it. When pvers get their BiS they often quit and pve vendor is fastest way to do it.
If you were in Blizzard shoes, you would do the same.
PvPers are another story, they play for pvp itself, rarely gear is a goal. So they can have targetted gear progress.

[anon5123]

Because filling a weekly bar with resources (conquest), then buying the gear you want is boring as fuck.

And getting fucked over by RNG, not getting the thing you want week after week after week is......fun?

well okay, if you're a masochist, I suppose

[xero5141]

But, it is? Every piece got versatility on it. All pvp pieces I get is 5-15% worse than the raid-m+ I get with better itemization on it at same item level. Only exception are weapons(which do require rankings for the proper ones) and for some specs, trinkets.

I do my gearing through PvE. Getting a piece from pvp at a better item level is taking quite the time for most people who PvE because they cant get enough conquest to buy the items they dont really want because the stats are generally not good enough.

And the whole charade of "why do PvP get vendors and PvE do not" is because pve already got a deterministic system. You can look at the loot table and see which boss or dungeon that drop a helm for example. Its the same way as it would be if you could do lets say a WSG and it had a loot table of 5 pieces which included a helm you wanted so you could then actively spam WSG to get the item.

Besides that, its the rpg element. PvP content are static. We are still doing AV, AB, Wintergrasp etc even though that do not belong to current story. PvE is story mode, even if its lfr or mythic, which includes getting gear from that boss you kill, story wise. PvP do not have that element. Mind you, this paragraph is more my opinion about how gearing should work, but something tells me that this is the philosophy Blizzard design the entire game with.


If they added rating to it I would think it would be fine. Have to do mythic raiding or 20++ to get highest gear from the vendor, if you do WQ or LFR your rating will only allow you to buy gear from same item level. I raid heroic, I dont deserve mythic raiding gear. I dont want it either, because I like how progression works now in the raids. No more easy over gearing after 3 weeks either, which is a good thing.

Your class or spec may be that way, but for (I'm making an educated guess here) the majority of specs, the ilvl hike for pvp gear over pve will be enough for them to use pvp gear in pve. For instance, on my hunter, the best two trinkets at anything below heroic ilvl are the two pvp trinkets. If you look at warcraftlogs, there are very few instances of top parses without pvp trinkets because they're just better.